Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

Just in case you've... been hiding under a rock... here's how to catch up!

 

Part ONE (1954):

 

Part TWO (1955):

 

Part THREE (1956a): 

 

Part FOUR (1956b): 

 

Part FIVE (1957): 

 

Part SIX (1958): 

 

Part SEVEN (1959): 

Part EIGHT (1960)

Part NINE (1961)

 

Part TEN:

 

[Prince Namor]

And in case you missed it at the end of last year:

 

The numbers are coming in for 1962 and Marvel is UP 1 million copies sold from 1961 (1,040,000)

That is actually slower growth than they saw from 1960 to 1961 (2.6 million copies up.)

Most likely due to the 10 cent to 12 cent sales increase...

 

Marvel 1962 Sales (Number of copies): 19,740,000 (up 1,040,000)

These titles are verified through Statement of Publication numbers (* are ones verified by Comichron.com). I've added their total copies sold to accumulate 62% of the total sales. I then guesstimated on the one's we don't have numbers for to sort of reverse engineer Fantastic Four sales numbers.

 

Patsy Walker #106                149,072 (98-103)  6 issues - 894,432 total copies sold (?)

Kid Colt Outlaw #110             145,344  (103-107) 6 issues - 872,064 total copies sold (Down 7,533 per issue)

Modleing with Millie*             143,476  (16-21) 6 issues - 860,856 total copies sold (Down 24,794 per issue)

Patsy & Hedy*                         139,855  (81-86) 6 issues - 839,130 total copies sold (?)

Tales to Astonish #42          139,167   (28-38) 12 issues - 1,670,004 total copies sold (Down 45,728 per issue)

Strange Tales #107               136,637 (93-103) 12 issues - 1,639,644 total copies sold (Down 54,624 per issue)

Love Romances #103           135,301 (97-102) 6 issues - 811,806 total copies sold (?) This title would be cancelled this year

Journey Into Mystery #90  132,113  (76-86) 12 issues - 1,585,356 total copies sold (Down 49,977 per issue)

Rawhide Kid #33                  131,183  (26-31) 6 issues - 787,098 total copies sold (Down 18,979 per issue)

Gunsmoke Western*            126,475 (69-74) 6 issues - 758,850 total copies sold (Down 20,755 per issue) This title would be cancelled this year

Tales of Suspense #40        126,140  (26-36) 12 issues - 1,513,680 total copies sold (Down 58,495 per issue)

Total from Verified Sales: 12,232,920 (62% of 19,740,000)

*From Comichron.com

 

These are the titles I guesstimated numbers from. The Stan Lee 'dumb blonde' titles I used what was from like-title numbers above - I figured the Hulk and Amazing Adult Fantasy had to have the lesser numbers, as they were being canceled (same with Linda Carter and Teen-Age Romance) - AmFantasy 15 and ASM #1 I gave a good showing - The Annuals I gave a moderate up total to - and Two Gun Kid I put in the Western range, also from above. I added those total copies up and what I was left with is what the Fantastic Four numbers became - which seem within range, especially from when they actually started to show numbers around 1966. It would be in that 329,000 to 340,000 each year for the rest of the 60's. 

ALSO - the Statement of Publication numbers DO NOT in some instances cover the entire year - example, Kid Colt Outlaw was for issues #103-107, which is only 5 issues. It had 6 during the year, so I multiplied by 6 to cover the entire year. I did this because Marvel Sales numbers cover the ENTIRE year. Its an average, so it should be pretty close to correct.

 

Millie the Model (108-113)    6 issues (est. 140,000 per issue) - 840,000 total copies sold

Kathy (16-21)                         6 issues (est. 140,000per issue) - 840,000 total copies sold

Fantastic Four (4-12)            9 issues (est. 326,897per issue) - 2,942,080 total copies sold

The Incredible Hulk (1-5)      5 issues (est. 110,000per issue) - 550,000 total copies sold  This title would be cancelled this year

Amz Adult Fantasy (11-14)     4 issues (est. 110,000per issue) - 440,000 total copies sold  This was cancelled last year

Amazing Fantasy 15              1 issues (est. 250,000per issue) - 250,000 total copies sold

Amazing Spider-man (1)       1 issues (est. 250,000per issue) - 250,000 total copies sold

Linda Carter (5-9)                 5 issues (est. 110,000per issue) - 550,000 total copies sold  This was cancelled last year

Teen-Age Romance (86)      1 issues (est. 110,000per issue) - 110,000 total copies sold  This was cancelled last year

Millie the Model Annual (1)   1 issues (est. 180,000per issue) - 180,000 total copies sold

Strange Tales Annual (1)      1 issues (est. 180,000per issue) - 180,000 total copies sold

Two Gun Kid (60-62).           3 issues (est. 125,000per issue) - 375,000 total copies sold

 

The interesting thing about these numbers is that... they're almost completely DOWN from 1961, other than the Fantastic Four. The Kirby Monster books took a real beating, dropping hard - so hard that Patsy Walker would show up as Marvel's best selling book - well, of what they SHOWED - I'm sure FF was their best seller by far.

It shows us that Marvel was NOT an immediate hit - in the sales sense - comic fandom, obviously was discovering it and enjoying it - but it wasn't enough to save Amazing Adult Fantasy and the Incredible Hulk. Those numbers also include 8 issues of the Ant-Man in Tales to Astonish (not including his prequel), - 3 issues of the Torch in Strange Tales - and 4 issues of Thor in Journey Into Mystery - all three titles falling hard in avg monthly numbers sold (for the YEAR) - but the one title WITHOUT a superhero is Tales of Suspense and its numbers fall the hardest - almost 60,000 copies per issue. Which tells us that maybe those superheroes raised the average numbers a bit on the other 3.

Tales of Suspense of course is about to get its OWN superhero...

[Prince Namor]

From what we can see here, Kirby’s page output (at the bottom of each column) was averaging over 100 pages a month through June - July - August - September - October- and November of 1962.

Then, he finds out Larry Lieber is getting ‘-script’ credit on some of his work (Strange Tales, Journey Into Mystery, and Tales of Astonish) and at the same time has an argument with Stan about Hulk #6 and contemplates leaving Marvel. He quits those three titles and begins to work on other ideas, with the understanding that - he HAS to put up with Stan claiming ‘-script’ on his stories - he’s not going to stand for anyone else stealing that credit.

His Tales of Suspense Iron man story, speculated to have actually been done FIRST, is used in #40, that same month (January 1963), and Kirby also does #41 and #43, all WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline - Robert Bernstein is credited with the scripts… but that would be the last of that as well - Kirby wouldn’t come back to TOS until Captain America a year later.

Some have speculated that Lee cut Kirby’s work load down to prepare him for Sgt. Fury, Avengers, and X-Men - as well as the Fantastic Four Annual - but only ONE of those books would actually be released within the next 6 months. (Sgt. Fury in March - the rest not until July). So…

1. Why would a guy who could pump out 100 pages a month, need his work load cut in half to put out 4 extra books over 7 months?
2. If Lee was cutting his work load down, why was Kirby picking up Two Gun Kid and doing 13-18 pages a month in Love Romances, a title that was getting ready to be canceled?
3. Kirby immediately returns to Strange Tales in February WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline and returns to Tales to Astonish in March WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline - returns to Journey Into Mystery for ONE issue in April (again WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline) - I believe that’s the last we’d ever see a Larry Lieber credit on a Jack Kirby story… those 10 issues and that was it.
4. He returns to those 3 titles almost immediately… with only that ONE major change… NO LARRY LIEBER BYLINE. 
5. BUT - He’s most annoyed with what’s been done to Thor - and only comes back to it full time with issue #97 (in August) and only will allow Lee to claim ‘credit’. (Kirby many times said that Lee was allowed to claim writing credit because he was Goodman’s relative by marriage and thus the one who made the rules.)
6. With Journey Into Mystery #99, the second 5 page added feature ‘Tales of Asgard’ is the first time since the credit boxes started that Stan appeases Jack by listing it as ‘By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’ INSTEAD of Stan Lee: -script, Jack Kirby: Art (i.e. he allows Jack to take more credit).
7. I believe this appeasement is done to get Jack to come back to Thor because the title is a complete mess without him (as you'll see here over the next few months covered in this thread). 

I believe that all of these events - when looked at in the order they occur - show us that Larry Lieber was NOT accepted by Kirby as the writer of his work and in looking at Lieber's work MINUS Kirby, PROVE that there’s no way he was writing Kirby’s monster stories for the last 4 years. His Kirby-less work is THAT bad. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

For January, Marvel would again release 10 titles to the newsstand. For 23 out of the last 25 months now they've put out more than the rumored 8 titles, and one of the months they didn't was when they shut down for the month. They put out at least 9 titles EVERY month of 1962.

 

Fantastic Four #13 

Incredible Hulk #6

Gunsmoke Western #75 

Journey Into Mystery #90 

Love Romances #104

Patsy & Hedy #87

Rawhide Kid #33 

Strange Tales #107

Tales of Suspense #40

Tales to Astonish #42

[Zonker]

Quote

Then, he finds out Larry Lieber is getting ‘--script’ credit on some of his work (Strange Tales, Journey Into Mystery, and Tales of Astonish) and at the same time has an argument with Stan about Hulk #6 and contemplates leaving Marvel. He quits those three titles and begins to work on other ideas, with the understanding that - he HAS to put up with Stan claiming ‘--script’ on his stories - he’s not going to stand for anyone else stealing that credit.

 

 

BUT - He’s most annoyed with what’s been done to Thor - and only comes back to it full time with issue #97 (in August) and only will allow Lee to claim ‘credit’. (Kirby many times said that Lee was allowed to claim writing credit because he was Goodman’s relative by marriage and thus the one who made the rules.)

I believe that all of these events - when looked at in the order they occur - show us that Larry Lieber was NOT accepted by Kirby as the writer of his work 

I still think one would need to find some Kirby quote expressing his annoyance at the Larry Lieber credit as the reason for Kirby's absence.  Remember, Kirby does return to JIM #93 for a single issue credited as a Robert Bernstein -script.  So this theory would imply not just a "nobody but Stan gets to do this to my stuff" position, but instead more of an "anybody BUT Larry...." attitude.

And that attitude seems at odds with this remembrance from Mark Evanier-- unless Evanier is now not to be trusted as well?

Happy Birthday Larry Lieber

Quote

I first met Larry in the Marvel offices in New York in 1970. He seemed a little surprised that anyone wanted to meet him and he was genuinely pleased when I conveyed to him best wishes from my then-employer Jack Kirby. Jack loved Larry and as far as I could tell, everyone did.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:48 AM, Zonker said:

I still think one would need to find some Kirby quote expressing his annoyance at the Larry Lieber credit as the reason for Kirby's absence.  Remember, Kirby does return to JIM #93 for a single issue credited as a Robert Bernstein ---script.  So this theory would imply not just a "nobody but Stan gets to do this to my stuff" position, but instead more of an "anybody BUT Larry...." attitude.

And that attitude seems at odds with this remembrance from Mark Evanier-- unless Evanier is now not to be trusted as well?

Happy Birthday Larry Lieber

 

The former head of Stan Lee Media, Mark Evanier?

No, I don't trust him. I've had e-mail correspondence with him, and his story changes. He tends to take what Stan Lee or Marvel tells him and repeats it verbatim  - He owns 20-30 plots typed by Stan (yet strangely has never shown us one), Larry was a co-writer, etc.,...

Under oath in a Federal Court however, it was a different story:

on November 4, 2010, Evanier wrote in his official declaration in the Marvel v Kirby court case:
I want to emphasise that Kirby worked on his own, and supervised himself, and did not create under the direction or supervision of Stan Lee or anyone else at Marvel. 

 

 

Jack Kirby never mentions Larry Lieber. That tells it all. in the Infamous TCJ interview he takes the time to call out Ed Herron, as the creator of the Red Skull from 1941 - but never once mentions Larry Lieber the guy supposedly wrote all the monster stories and half the birth of Marvel's characters with him. In fact the closest I can even find to him ever mentioning the guy is saying in that same interview "... Stan would hand it off to some guy to type it up!"

Jack never mentions arguing with Stan and leaving the Hulk book and tearing up his Hulk story and throwing it in the trash - but we know it happened - not JUST because Larry talks about it in Federal Court, but because he HAS those torn up pages. (Yet strangely, not a single '--script' he wrote...)

Guess when Kirby bails on Hulk? This SAME month....

 

Stan says he took Jack off of the last issue of the Hulk because he didn't want to waste him on a book he was cancelling... Two Gun Kid was cancelled for a year in a half in January of 1961, but Jack would provide the cover and 18 pages of art on that final issue. Teen-Age Romance #86 was the final issue in February of 1962, yet Kirby would provide the cover and 18 pages of art on that final issue. Again... Stan's story of what happened doesn't seem to add up...

We KNOW something happened, only because of what Larry said and the evidence that exists. But Kirby never said a word about it.

We know THIS happened with Larry Lieber on the stories because the timeline shows us it did. Even though Kirby ALSO never said a word about it. 

The document to prove it, is in the work - or in this case - the never work again.

If Larry Lieber and Jack Kirby (and Stan Lee) all co-created Ant-Man and Thor and Iron man... why did Lee never again team them up???

Edited February 16, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Well here's why... because it's a bunch of bull crud. THIS is the smoking gun that proves Larry hadn't spent 4 years writing those monster stories for Jack Kirby.

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #90 - Jack Kirby cover, but Stan Lee plot, Larry Lieber -script and Al Hartley art. 

I give you... what is maybe the worst comic of the Marvel Silver Age (and the first Thor that Lieber does without Kirby)...

[Zonker]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:48 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Jack never mentions arguing with Stan and leaving the Hulk book and tearing up his Hulk story and throwing it in the trash - but we know it happened - not JUST because Larry talks about it in Federal Court, but because he HAS those torn up pages. (Yet strangely, not a single '---script' he wrote...)

 

Larry says he kept the original Hulk pages penciled by Kirby in order to learn from him (as an artist).  Maybe Larry didn't keep his scripts because Larry didn't believe he had anything useful to learn (as a writer) from a Larry Lieber -script.    

[bc]

-bc

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by bc

[Mmehdy]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

From what we can see here, Kirby’s page output (at the bottom of each column) was averaging over 100 pages a month through June - July - August - September - October- and November of 1962.

Then, he finds out Larry Lieber is getting ‘--script’ credit on some of his work (Strange Tales, Journey Into Mystery, and Tales of Astonish) and at the same time has an argument with Stan about Hulk #6 and contemplates leaving Marvel. He quits those three titles and begins to work on other ideas, with the understanding that - he HAS to put up with Stan claiming ‘--script’ on his stories - he’s not going to stand for anyone else stealing that credit.

His Tales of Suspense Iron man story, speculated to have actually been done FIRST, is used in #40, that same month (January 1963), and Kirby also does #41 and #43, all WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline - Robert Bernstein is credited with the scripts… but that would be the last of that as well - Kirby wouldn’t come back to TOS until Captain America a year later.

Some have speculated that Lee cut Kirby’s work load down to prepare him for Sgt. Fury, Avengers, and X-Men - as well as the Fantastic Four Annual - but only ONE of those books would actually be released within the next 6 months. (Sgt. Fury in March - the rest not until July). So…

1. Why would a guy who could pump out 100 pages a month, need his work load cut in half to put out 4 extra books over 7 months?
2. If Lee was cutting his work load down, why was Kirby picking up Two Gun Kid and doing 13-18 pages a month in Love Romances, a title that was getting ready to be canceled?
3. Kirby immediately returns to Strange Tales in February WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline and returns to Tales to Astonish in March WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline - returns to Journey Into Mystery for ONE issue in April (again WITHOUT a Larry Lieber byline) - I believe that’s the last we’d ever see a Larry Lieber credit on a Jack Kirby story… those 10 issues and that was it.
4. He returns to those 3 titles almost immediately… with only that ONE major change… NO LARRY LIEBER BYLINE. 
5. BUT - He’s most annoyed with what’s been done to Thor - and only comes back to it full time with issue #97 (in August) and only will allow Lee to claim ‘credit’. (Kirby many times said that Lee was allowed to claim writing credit because he was Goodman’s relative by marriage and thus the one who made the rules.)
6. With Journey Into Mystery #99, the second 5 page added feature ‘Tales of Asgard’ is the first time since the credit boxes started that Stan appeases Jack by listing it as ‘By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby’ INSTEAD of Stan Lee: --script, Jack Kirby: Art (i.e. he allows Jack to take more credit).
7. I believe this appeasement is done to get Jack to come back to Thor because the title is a complete mess without him (as you'll see here over the next few months covered in this thread). 

I believe that all of these events - when looked at in the order they occur - show us that Larry Lieber was NOT accepted by Kirby as the writer of his work and in looking at Lieber's work MINUS Kirby, PROVE that there’s no way he was writing Kirby’s monster stories for the last 4 years. His Kirby-less work is THAT bad. 

amazing work.....I am with you 99% on this......spot on!!!!!!

[Unca Ben]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

He’s most annoyed with what’s been done to Thor - and only comes back to it full time with issue #97 (in August)

Kirby started Tales of Asgard and did the Thor story in ish 97. Don Heck pencilled & inked the featured Thor stories in JIM 98-100.  Then Kirby came back full-time with ish 101 doing the featured story & Tales of Asgard.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Unca Ben

[Zonker]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:56 AM, Prince Namor said:

Well here's why... because it's a bunch of bull crud. THIS is the smoking gun that proves Larry hadn't spent 4 years writing those monster stories for Jack Kirby.

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Journey Into Mystery #90 - Jack Kirby cover, but Stan Lee plot, Larry Lieber --script and Al Hartley art. 

I give you... what is maybe the worst comic of the Marvel Silver Age (and the first Thor that Lieber does without Kirby)...

This is not a good story.  But I don't see it as significantly worse than some of the other stories Kirby drew attributed to a Larry Lieber -script.  (Stories that I complained about in the 1962 thread).  What sets this one apart is:

- the sadly inappropriate Al Hartley artwork.  That Donald Blake bobble head on page 2, for example.  In contrast, Kirby's art was able to make even a silly story look respectable.

- the absence of even a germ of a Kirby idea transmitted from Stan to Larry.  Unless you count cribbing the resolution of the Skrulls invasion from FF #2: "Ok, Larry, instead of cows, let's have the shape-shifting aliens become... I dunno... trees this time.  Yeah, that's the ticket!"

[Zonker]

On 2/15/2023 at 8:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Some have speculated that Lee cut Kirby’s work load down to prepare him for Sgt. Fury, Avengers, and X-Men - as well as the Fantastic Four Annual - but only ONE of those books would actually be released within the next 6 months. (Sgt. Fury in March - the rest not until July). So…

1. Why would a guy who could pump out 100 pages a month, need his work load cut in half to put out 4 extra books over 7 months?

As you show, July turns out to be a huge month for Kirby:

But Kirby's not just drawing a bunch of pages of ongoing series to be published in July, instead he is completely conceptualizing new books, which certainly takes more time than putting together the latest ongoing chapter of FF (with or without help from Stan).  In the case of X-Men, these are entirely new characters, a bunch of them!  And while the Avengers were already established, we've seen that Kirby tended to put together multiple pages of character sketches and possible storylines in advance of launching a new series.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/16/2023 at 4:00 PM, Zonker said:

As you show, July turns out to be a huge month for Kirby:

But Kirby's not just drawing a bunch of pages of ongoing series to be published in July, instead he is completely conceptualizing new books, which certainly takes more time than putting together the latest ongoing chapter of FF (with or without help from Stan).  In the case of X-Men, these are entirely new characters, a bunch of them!  And while the Avengers were already established, we've seen that Kirby tended to put together multiple pages of character sketches and possible storylines in advance of launching a new series.

Jack didn't need 7 months to do 4 new books.

And would Stan take him off important books like Journey Into Mystery or Strange Tales, yet keep him on Love Romances for two more issues? Or Rawhide Kid?

It's NATURAL that it would've been Al Hartley to do the Love Romances book or Jack Keller to do another story in Rawhide Kid...

[Prince Namor]

On 2/16/2023 at 2:24 PM, Unca Ben said:

Kirby started Tales of Asgard and did the Thor story in ish 97. Don Heck pencilled & inked the featured Thor stories in JIM 98-100.  Then Kirby came back full-time with ish 101 doing the featured story & Tales of Asgard.

Correct.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:34 PM, Zonker said:

This is not a good story.  But I don't see it as significantly worse than some of the other stories Kirby drew attributed to a Larry Lieber --script.  (Stories that I complained about in the 1962 thread). 

Um, I disagree. It's very clear the difference between Larry or Stan interfering with a Kirby story by changing dialogue and 13 pages of #90's poorly written dialogue. 

On 2/16/2023 at 3:34 PM, Zonker said:

What sets this one apart is:

- the sadly inappropriate Al Hartley artwork.  That Donald Blake bobble head on page 2, for example.  In contrast, Kirby's art was able to make even a silly story look respectable.

Because he wrote the stories as he was drawing it. 

There are issues here with the story even beyond what Hartley is drawing. 

On 2/16/2023 at 3:34 PM, Zonker said:

- the absence of even a germ of a Kirby idea transmitted from Stan to Larry.  Unless you count cribbing the resolution of the Skrulls invasion from FF #2: "Ok, Larry, instead of cows, let's have the shape-shifting aliens become... I dunno... trees this time.  Yeah, that's the ticket!"

That's all Stan ever had was using someone else's ideas. It's even more than just the ending here.

I guess I'm going to have to break it down panel by panel...

[Prince Namor]

On 2/16/2023 at 1:04 PM, Zonker said:

Larry says he kept the original Hulk pages penciled by Kirby in order to learn from him (as an artist).  Maybe Larry didn't keep his scripts because Larry didn't believe he had anything useful to learn (as a writer) from a Larry Lieber ---script.    

Or maybe he didn't have any in the first place.

It's funny how people take Stan and Larry at their word, despite a lack of proof or even the presentation OF proof that shows they were lying, but Jack Kirby supporters have to have definitive physical evidence to even get consideration. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Case in point... when did THIS suddenly become accepted?

For decades we'd been told "Oh, they could only do 8 titles a month in the 60's!" But as proof became known, they've now amended the story...

Am I imagining things or has this revisionist history been added now that we know Marvel stopped following the mysterious output of 8 very early on?

They still don’t have their timeline down as Marvel averaged more than 8 every year they published in the 60’s including 1960 (8.58), 1961 (10.16), and 1962 (11.08)… so if in 1963 they ‘conivince’ their distributor to allow their monthly output to 11 tittles… how do you explain that they’d ALREADY BEEN putting out an average of 11 for the previous year???

And why would National put that restriction on them (in the first place - why limit the money you can make?) and then as they started to get more popular, allow them to increase? There are so many unanswered questions about all of this, but one thing is for sure… some of what has been told to us about this is false and been accepted without proof for DECADES.

Even Stan Lee sycophant's like Tom Breevoort continue to repeat it...

 

From Twomorrow's Stuf' Said book... 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

On 2/16/2023 at 4:49 PM, Prince Namor said:

It's funny how people take Stan and Larry at their word, despite a lack of proof or even the presentation of proof that shows they were lying, but Jack Kirby supporters have to have definitive physical evidence to even get consideration. 

Oh, I'm a Kirby supporter, don't get me wrong.  I think it is clear that 95% of the ideas came from Kirby.  I'm just trying to be fair in not over-demonizing Stan in the process.  Particularly since the true Stan Lee partisans are either entirely boycotting or else blocked from contributing to these threads.  The Jack-always-did-it-all theory is an extraordinary claim, and so it needs extraordinary evidence.  If we are just going to have competing camps of Jack-did-it-all versus Stan-did-everything-but-hold-the-pencil-for-Jack, then each side will stop listening to the other, and that's no good.  

My biggest problem with the Jack-did-it-all approach is the lack of Kirby's idiosyncratic dialogue style in the Atlas monster stories and the early Thors and Human Torches.  The style that he used in his 1970s DC and Marvel work, as well as the Fantastic Four #6 issue discussed in the previous thread.

[Zonker]

On 2/16/2023 at 4:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

Case in point... when did THIS suddenly become accepted?

For decades we'd been told "Oh, they could only do 8 titles a month in the 60's!" But as proof became known, they've now amended the story...

Am I imagining things or has this revisionist history been added now that we know Marvel stopped following the mysterious output of 8 very early on?

They still don’t have their timeline down as Marvel averaged more than 8 every year they published in the 60’s including 1960 (8.58), 1961 (10.16), and 1962 (11.08)… so if in 1963 they ‘conivince’ their distributor to allow their monthly output to 11 tittles… how do you explain that they’d ALREADY BEEN putting out an average of 11 for the previous year???

And why would National put that restriction on them (in the first place - why limit the money you can make?) and then as they started to get more popular, allow them to increase? There are so many unanswered questions about all of this, but one thing is for sure… some of what has been told to us about this is false and been accepted without proof for DECADES.

 

Indeed a puzzler.  I could speculate that Independent News, as a subsidiary of National Periodical Publications (i.e. DC Comics), had a lower profit margin for distributing someone else's books, than did the parent company for producing its own books.  And, speculating again that Martin Goodman had a reputation for flooding the newsstands with product if it served his interests (as he did in the 1970s with all those Marvel reprint books).

On the other hand, what benefit is gained from some made-up fiction about only 8 or 11 titles being allowed?