ASM #1 sells for $520.4K 2 2

[namisgr]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:28 PM, VintageComics said:

This is just speculation on your part and you are probably wrong (again).

As to my speculation about the ASM #1, I said as much in my post about it, after making the effort to examine a few dozen other early SA Marvels from the collection on the Hake's website.  Your opinion of said book or any other high grade early SA Marvel with the pages sticking out, exposed more at the top than the bottom of the book, and accompanied by a starched collar of a top edge cover overhand that's flat as can be is also just speculation.

Here's Matt Nelson's post from the Cole Schave thread.  He was responding to multiple examples of before and after scans/photos documenting the changed interior page exposure and starched collar top edge overhangs, and the fact that a single collection from a single seller was littered with example after example after example:

Posted September 4, 2013

What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not.

Edited August 8, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:55 PM, namisgr said:

On 8/7/2023 at 10:28 PM, VintageComics said:

This is just speculation on your part and you are probably wrong (again).

Here's Matt Nelson's post from the Cole Schave thread:

 

Posted September 4, 2013

What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not.

Yes, NOW you're getting it. 

The covers shrink from exposure to humidity. That's why SA Marvel covers change shape over time. 

They don't need to be pressed to change shape. All they need to do is be exposed to the atmosphere, which is why so many copies have edges protruding. 

So pages protruding on the right is more of a proof that they're SA Marvels than whether they have been pressed or not. 

 

Or maybe the owner of the books who has already apparently clarified is wrong and you're right. I suppose that's a possibility too.  

[namisgr]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:02 PM, VintageComics said:

Yes, NOW you're getting it. 

The covers shrink from exposure to humidity. That's why SA Marvel covers change shape over time. 

They don't need to be pressed to change shape. All they need to do is be exposed to the atmosphere, which is why so many copies have edges protruding. 

So pages protruding on the right is more of a proof that they're SA Marvels than whether they have been pressed or not. 

 

Or maybe the owner of the books who has already apparently clarified is wrong and you're right. I suppose that's a possibility too.  

I got it in 2013 when starting the 'Cole Schave' thread.  Since then, the topic has been effects of pressing on early SA Marvels with normal cover wraps, and neither SA Marvels per se nor early ones with significant front to back cover miswraps.

Pages protruding on the right of an early SA Marvel, particularly along the top half of the book, coupled with a starched collar top overhang, the lack of a front to back miswrap, and multiple examples graded at the same time of such, like occurred with the Cole Schave collection, is much stronger an indicator of negative effects of pressing than simply pages sticking out of a SA Marvel book.  Proof comes with before and after visuals, of which there are hundreds, and could have come from CGC/CCS as well had they ever decided to adopt disclosure as policy.

I'm most probably not wrong about the ASM #1.  If you took the time to read and understand my post, you'd see I accept the consigner's statement that the ASM #1 wasn't pressed.  Instead, my point was directed at the earlier question of whether the book might be a candidate for pressing to a 9.8 upgrade, along with the status of some of the other early SA Marvels from the same collection that were graded around the same time and auctioned by Hake's.

Edited August 8, 2023 by namisgr

[jjonahjameson11]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:57 AM, Aman619 said:

I still find it wild that so many near perfect copies of these books from the early 60s exist at all. I know how MY collected copies turned from back then!  Even a copy nice enough to press into a 9.6 is remarkable.  Who had the lucky to buy a perfect copy, then save it well?  The Curator sure, but regular collectors?  amazing. 

Agreed!  60 years is a loooooong time for a comic book to stay in such wonderful condition 

[VintageComics]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:11 PM, namisgr said:

I got it in 2013 when starting the 'Cole Schave' thread.  Since then, the topic has been effects of pressing on early SA Marvels with normal cover wraps, and neither SA Marvels per se nor early ones with significant front to back cover miswraps.

Pages protruding on the right of an early SA Marvel, particularly along the top half of the book, coupled with a starched collar top overhang, the lack of a front to back miswrap, and multiple examples graded at the same time of such, like occurred with the Cole Schave collection, is much stronger an indicator of negative effects of pressing than simply pages sticking out of a SA Marvel book.  Proof comes with before and after visuals, of which there are hundreds, and could have come from CGC/CCS as well had they ever decided to adopt disclosure as policy.

You can find just as many UNPRESSED books with pages protruding on the right as you can PRESSED books. You can find them in dollar bins....you can find them everywhere. 

Would you like me to post pics of 1000 books that were not pressed that have protruding pages? I already snapped a random shot of a lower grade Conan #23 to prove my point. 

You just need to start looking for them to see them. 

The fact is that over time MORE COVERS WILL CHANGE SHAPE as the paper ages and so more and more covers will show interior pages protruding. 

Most of the covers are just in various stages of this with some further progressed than others. 

And all the pressing does is likely speed up the natural process that most books go through anyway...or at least books that go through humid environments through their lifetime. 

So again, you're just speculating. 

Especially in this discussion where the owner of the books has already covered the topic. 

On 8/8/2023 at 3:11 PM, namisgr said:

I'm most probably not wrong about the ASM #1.  If you took the time to read and understand my post, you'd see I accept the consigner's statement that the ASM #1 wasn't pressed.

I'm confused: Your direct quote states this:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:37 PM, namisgr said:

It's a virtual certainty that a comic of that valuation has already 'reached its full grade potential'.

To me, there's no other way to read this original quote other than you being "virtually certain" that the book has been maximized based on it's price point. 

And yet now you're admitting you're probably NOT wrong above....while also admitting you ARE wrong based on what the owner said.  

I guess in this case two wrongs can make a right. 

On 8/8/2023 at 3:11 PM, namisgr said:

Instead, my point was directed at the earlier question of whether the book might be a candidate for pressing to a 9.8 upgrade, along with the status of some of the other early SA Marvels from the same collection that were graded around the same time and auctioned by Hake's.

As you can see by your original statement above which I quoted, that's not at all what you said. 

Or at least that's not what everyone else read. 

Carry on! 

Edited August 9, 2023 by VintageComics

[namisgr]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:51 PM, VintageComics said:

You can find just as many UNPRESSED books with pages protruding on the right as you can PRESSED books. You can find them in dollar bins....you can find them everywhere. 

So what?  Nobody believes that pressed books can be identified simply by having pages sticking out beyond the covers.

[namisgr]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:51 PM, VintageComics said:

To me, there's no other way to read this original quote other than you being "virtually certain" that the book has been maximized based on it's price point. 

Ironically, you fail to acknowledge that many, many comics reach their maximal CGC grade potential by remaining unpressed, and in so doing fail to note that lots of comics, especially those in NM+ shape like the ASM #1, won't benefit from being pressed for CGC grading. 

So there is, indeed, a different way to read and understand my virtual certainty that Hake's wouldn't take a book of this exceptional value to auction if it thought it could be upgraded than what you misinterpreted.  And that would be because they didn't think the book had any chance of receiving a 9.8 grade, but had already maximized its potential without the need for pressing.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by namisgr
because I can

[Artifiction]

Can someone explain to me how humidity can cause paper to shrink? I'd expect the opposite to occur. I'll also admit that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. 

[namisgr]

It may be the combination of excessive humidity combined with high heat and pressure, rather than humidity alone.  At least that was the most common opinion for the Costanza effect through the old 'Cole Schave collection' thread.

Edited August 9, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:24 AM, namisgr said:

On 8/8/2023 at 10:51 PM, VintageComics said:

To me, there's no other way to read this original quote other than you being "virtually certain" that the book has been maximized based on it's price point. 

Ironically, you fail to acknowledge that many, many comics reach their maximal CGC grade potential by remaining unpressed, and in so doing fail to note that lots of comics, especially those in NM+ shape like the ASM #1, won't benefit from being pressed for CGC grading. 

 You ONLY discuss protruding pages and "starched" corners when discussing (actually denigrating, since you don't like the practice) pressed books and have done so for a decade, so it's basically impossible to read your post any other way other than the way I read it once you mention pages sticking out beyond the covers and the "starched" corners. 

On 8/9/2023 at 7:24 AM, namisgr said:

So there is, indeed, a different way to read and understand my virtual certainty that Hake's wouldn't take a book of this exceptional value to auction if it thought it could be upgraded than what you misinterpreted.  And that would be because they didn't think the book had any chance of receiving a 9.8 grade, but had already maximized its potential without the need for pressing.

If you meant that, then why didn't you say that? 

Why did you even bring up the "starched collar" and "protruding pages" and what do "starched collars" and "protruding pages" have to do with this discussion?

Edited August 9, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:09 AM, Artifiction said:

Can someone explain to me how humidity can cause paper to shrink? I'd expect the opposite to occur. I'll also admit that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. 

Yes.

On 8/9/2023 at 8:32 AM, namisgr said:

It may be the combination of excessive humidity combined with high heat and pressure, rather than humidity alone.  At least that was the most common opinion for the Costanza effect through the old 'Cole Schave collection' thread.

No.

Paper shrinks for the same reason that wood or any other fibrous material changes shape depending on the moisture content (and the external moisture that the fibres are exposed to). 

Moisture causes the paper to change shape by expanding it and once the paper (or wood or cloth) dries it changes shape again, shrinking in the opposite direction it expanded from.

I believe it's because the paper "continues to settle" as it dries in one direction the same way a T shirt or a wooden plank may dry in one direction because fibrous materials generally shrink as they dry, but they shrink according to the way their fibres are laid out - kind of like how the wood grain determines the shrinkage of wood. 

So, long story short, paper changes shape because it's fibrous and has water content, and after the pages have been formed, the water content of the paper determines it's final size and shape. 

Heat likely just accelerates the natural drying process in the same way that excessive heat accelerates how quickly water leaves every fibrous material, causing it to shrink. 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by VintageComics
I ABSOLUTELY EDITED THIS POST.

[The Lions Den]

At the risk of sounding a bit jaded, I'd be extremely surprised to see a book of this importance (and value) make it through the certification process without being pressed. 

And if it hasn't been pressed already, I'm sure it's only a matter of time...  

[VintageComics]

On 8/9/2023 at 2:48 PM, The Lions Den said:

At the risk of sounding a bit jaded, I'd be extremely surprised to see a book of this importance (and value) make it through the certification process without being pressed. 

And if it hasn't been pressed already, I'm sure it's only a matter of time...  

No doubt and I actually don't disagree. 

But that wasn't really the point of the discussion. 

The point of the discussion was

1) that someone assumed the book was maximized because of the cost (or value), to which I said this is not necessarily so and

2) that same person stated that you can tell if a book is pressed just by looking at a 2 dimensional picture of it to which I also disagreed.

Heck, we already established over 15 years ago on this very forum that often you can't reliably tell a book is pressed when you inspect it in hand, let alone from a picture so why some people continue to identify pressing from a 2 dimensional picture is beyond me...and in this case it was incorrectly identified as such. 

 

This is my opinion: If a book WON'T improve from a pressing, why would anyone want to risk pressing a potentially half million dollar book?

I wouldn't risk it. 

 

[MAR1979]

Is Hake's correctly pronounced  like Cake's with H instead of C, or Hack's

[namisgr]

I've heard it pronounced by others as Hakes rhymes with cakes.

[The Lions Den]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:16 PM, VintageComics said:

No doubt and I actually don't disagree. 

But that wasn't really the point of the discussion. 

The point of the discussion was

1) that someone assumed the book was maximized because of the cost (or value), to which I said this is not necessarily so and

2) that same person stated that you can tell if a book is pressed just by looking at a 2 dimensional picture of it to which I also disagreed.

Heck, we already established over 15 years ago on this very forum that often you can't reliably tell a book is pressed when you inspect it in hand, let alone from a picture so why some people continue to identify pressing from a 2 dimensional picture is beyond me...and in this case it was incorrectly identified as such. 

 

This is my opinion: If a book WON'T improve from a pressing, why would anyone want to risk pressing a potentially half million dollar book?

I wouldn't risk it. 

 

I know some guys who would...

[The Lions Den]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:55 PM, namisgr said:

As to my speculation about the ASM #1, I said as much in my post about it, after making the effort to examine a few dozen other early SA Marvels from the collection on the Hake's website.  Your opinion of said book or any other high grade early SA Marvel with the pages sticking out, exposed more at the top than the bottom of the book, and accompanied by a starched collar of a top edge cover overhand that's flat as can be is also just speculation.

Here's Matt Nelson's post from the Cole Schave thread.  He was responding to multiple examples of before and after scans/photos documenting the changed interior page exposure and starched collar top edge overhangs, and the fact that a single collection from a single seller was littered with example after example after example:

Posted September 4, 2013

What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not.

Doesn't pressing often cause the cover to shrink a bit? I've personally seen quite a few examples of this...  

[namisgr]

Can you tell if a book has been pressed by looking at a two dimensional picture of it?  You can tell when it's extremely likely, when it's an early SA Marvel, comes from a collection that has very few if any issues with normal cover wraps that have the interior pages badly exposed, has a top edge with big overhang that lies perfectly flat all the way across, and has a certification number indicating it was graded in a sizable batch of early SA Marvels also sporting these features.  Like the many examples from the thread linked earlier on the Cole Schave collection. 

Runny White Mountain pen arrival dates are a pretty good indication, too.  There are other stigmata as well.

Proof, as always, can be found in before and after scans, or if one used to own an example before it was pressed, as I and others posted and made clear 10 years ago now in the thread devoted to Pedigree Comics' sale of the Cole Schave collection.

Edited August 10, 2023 by namisgr

[wiparker824]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:59 AM, namisgr said:

Can you tell if a book has been pressed by looking at a two dimensional picture of it?  You can tell it's extremely likely, when it's an early SA Marvel, comes from a collection that has very few if any issues with normal cover wraps that have the interior pages badly exposed, has a top edge with big overhang that lies perfectly flat all the way across, and has a certification number indicating it was graded in a sizable batch of early SA Marvels also sporting these features.  Like the many examples from the thread linked earlier on the Cole Schave collection. 

Runny White Mountain pen arrival dates are a pretty good indication, too.

Proof, as always, can be found in before and after scans, as noted and made clear 10 years ago now in the thread devoted to Pedigree Comics' sale of the Cole Schave collection.

You’re saying this like there were 1000’s of books in this collection, and they all looked the same. There was just a handful of books in the Hake’s auction tagged as this collection and they did not all look the same - not all of them had the “interior pages badly exposed” as you think is proof of pressing. Here’s the ASM 14:

 

[namisgr]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:43 AM, wiparker824 said:

You’re saying this like there were 1000’s of books in this collection, and they all looked the same. There was just a handful of books in the Hake’s auction tagged as this collection and they did not all look the same - not all of them had the “interior pages badly exposed” as you think is proof of pressing. Here’s the ASM 14:

 

I wasn't referring to the Goodman collection in this instance, but to the large and high grade Cole Schave collection, linked earlier in this thread, and the number of examples posted there, including several with before and after scans.

That is a sharp looking ASM14.  I used to have a copy in that grade that I submitted for slabbing (posted below), and coupled with things like the slight bend in the bottom overhang, it was almost certain to never have been pressed.  But a couple of the early Spideys in the Hake's auction had features that, were I still collecting the run in high grade, I'd have not bothered to bid on owing to personal preference.

Edited August 10, 2023 by namisgr