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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 10/16/2023 at 5:41 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - But, I have to wonder... of the hundreds of letters they get a month, why would Stan print THIS one. 

Ok. I wasn't REALLY wondering. I know darn well why. 

Screen Shot 2023-10-15 at 2.34.03 PM.png

$10 to buy every issue of FF from #1 to #28... I'll take that deal! I hope Greg soon came to realise that Kirby was indeed the best artist in the comic industry.

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The humble Watcher lurking

The humble Watcher lurking

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On 10/15/2023 at 8:20 PM, Steven Valdez said:

$10 to buy every issue of FF from #1 to #28... I'll take that deal! I hope Greg soon came to realise that Kirby was indeed the best artist in the comic industry.

I get a kick out of the response " Now Stan will NEVER let me put my name first!"

I am pretty sure that`s not Jack answering back, but it`s most likely Stan? hm

 

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Steven Valdez

Steven Valdez

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On 10/16/2023 at 11:26 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

I get a kick out of the response " Now Stan will NEVER let me put my name first!"

I am pretty sure that`s not Jack answering back, but it`s most likely Stan? hm

 

The reply should have read;

"Hey, we think Jack's the greatest! And now that we're not slave-driving him so hard, wait'll you see what he comes up with next! I can't wait to write it after he's already written it!"

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 10/15/2023 at 1:32 PM, Prince Namor said:

Now that Kirby is finally able to concentrate on just two books, the art is getting better AND he's getting ahead of schedule enough that Stan can actually tell readers what's coming up in the next issue!

 

Jack was still doing the (bimonthly) Avengers and X-men series in addition to FF and Thor for most of 1964, I believe. However, doing the equivalent of (only!) three full books a month probably felt like a mini vacation for him.

Edited by Dr. Haydn
minor rewording
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Around this time they'd hire Flo Steinburg, as, in Stan's words, 'his Gal, Friday'. She'd become a fan favorite - answering the phone, and opening the letters and even making some appearances at shows. They'd use her over the years to repeat propaganda and misinformation for the company, and I never saw her 'perspective' as anything other than the company line. 

Example:

“The books came out, and, in fact, sometimes—this makes people cringe, practically cry—when the shelves got too crowded with artwork and scripts... we would just throw them out. I mean, the artwork was considered like, who needed it anymore? The artists didn’t ask for it back. It was like throwing out a script... We threw out tons of artwork. There were all these things about all the Kirby art that people thought Marvel was holding onto, but we just used to toss it. And feel good there was a clean shelf to fill up again.”

2011: Flo Steinberg interview with Dewey Cassell

Duh.

a) They very obviously DIDN'T throw the artwork out

b) I've never seen an artist from that era, who was asked about it, say they didn't want the art back. Of course they did.

c) There were no scripts. Not while Flo was there.

d) In 1987 after a long wait, Kirby received back around 1900 pages of his work, so obviously there was artwork that Marvel had of Kirby's.

 

As with most of the company line people at Marvel not named Stan Lee, Flo would quit in 1968 when Marvel wouldn't give her a $5 a week raise.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 10/15/2023 at 11:28 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Jack was still doing the (bimonthly) Avengers and X-men series in addition to FF and Thor for most of 1964, I believe. However, doing the equivalent of (only!) three full books a month probably felt like a mini vacation for him.

Yep. Three more issues of the Avengers and 6 more of the X-Men, but in between he'd start Captain America half issue stories and afterwards, the Nick Fury half issue stories.

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 10/15/2023 at 7:26 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

I get a kick out of the response " Now Stan will NEVER let me put my name first!"

I am pretty sure that`s not Jack answering back, but it`s most likely Stan? hm

 

Flo Steinberg was on staff by then, I think...it sounds like a task that would be delegated to her. Stan's joking tone would be easy enough for her (or anyone else) to mimic, I expect.

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 10/15/2023 at 11:41 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - But, I have to wonder... of the hundreds of letters they get a month, why would Stan print THIS one. 

Ok. I wasn't REALLY wondering. I know darn well why. 

Screen Shot 2023-10-15 at 2.34.03 PM.png

Those were the days...when $10 was a lot money and a Twenty is like wow!

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 10/18/2023 at 8:01 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Tales of Suspense #55 -

Part TWO + 4 Pages of 'All About Iron Man + a... Pin up?:

Is this the first time Pepper's real first name was mentioned?

Also, do we know Happy Hogan's real name yet?

On 10/18/2023 at 8:01 AM, Prince Namor said:

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Tales of Suspense #55 - Story Plot: Stan Lee   Script & Art: Larry Lieber  Lettering: Art Simek

Stan must've run out of hyperbole after the cover and first page of the Iron Man story, because this gets very little push. Fan reaction must have been bad, because as cheaply as Stan gets this made, it finishes here - unlike Tales of Asgard with would run for 3+ more years (and another year with the Inhumans stories).

Reading this, it was definitely time to go (The Watcher DID interfere...).

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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A 1964 Stan Lee interview from a new Fanzine - Crusader #1 - the interview is with David Castromuovo, Peter Ricciardi and... Frank Colletta (Vince's son... Vince being a very 'close' friend of Stan's) It was published Dec 1964-Jan 1965

Q: Are you planning to give Captain America his own mag?
LEE: There is only one thing stopping us. Jack [Kirby] doesn’t have the time to draw it, and I don’t have the time to write it. But, sooner or later, whether it be a year from now, or ten years from now, we will find the time to do it!

It's interesting, but very telling in these early interviews, that it is clear that the expansion at Marvel doesn't happen because Stan can't find people to work for him - either because they WON'T (knowing the Marvel Method process) or he's not yet allowed to hire them by Goodman. Which would explain the slow expansion and have ZERO to do with any Distributor restrictions that were passed around as fact for decades.

Of course the Distributor stories make Stan look like a victim of his competition that he overcomes by sheer genius, as opposed to just an editor under the thumb of publisher Martin Goodman.

It’s a funny thing with Jack’s artwork. You never know just how good Jack really is. If he gets a good inker, he looks good. If he gets a bad inker, he looks bad. But Jack Kirby’s penciling is so magnificent—no inker can really do it justice!

Sort of weird statement for Stan to make... and bit of double talk...

Q: Do you save any of your original manuscripts? LEE: As a matter of fact, there really are no manuscripts to save! The way I do it now, I write the story in synopsis form, and then give it to the artist. He pencils the drawings, and I get it back again. Then, I write the words above the panels, and these are eventually lettered in. So, we work so fast that there almost aren’t any real manuscripts.

First part of this is very obviously a lie, as Stan didn't actually write many synopsis - and most of those were from notes typed up from discussion with the artists (who mostly said HE never had any ideas). Ditko got some in the early days, but that turned into discussions and then by ASM #18, Steve was writing it all himself. Don Heck worked via the phone, the humor guys and Ayers say they had to come up with ideas on their own, and Kirby never needed anything from Stan. 

That and... we don't see any synopsis that survived one of the most famous periods in comic book history. 

Q: What gives you ideas for stories?
LEE: Actually, there is very little inspiration involved. You just sit down and figure it out. Do I need a new villain? What haven’t I used before? What do the readers like?

LOL. He should've told the truth here 'the artist's do'. Instead...spoken like an editor with very little ideas of his own. Creative people don't see it like this at all. 

Q: What happens to the original artwork after a comic is finished?
LEE: We send it to a warehouse, and then it just sits there.

That's funny, your secretary seems to think you throw it all away!

 

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