Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:52 AM, jimjum12 said:

Many of my friends are big fans of the work of Heck and Ayers.

There's nothing wrong with Heck or Ayers work. Nothing.

As a tool to examine what little Stan did in the writing of the stories, they are extremely useful though, as they were not Kirby (few ever were), or Ditko (as unique as he was). The stories they created were simple and a little silly, and that's ok. But exposes that Stan didn't 'write' them. That it's multiple artists doing the writing.

On 10/28/2023 at 8:52 AM, jimjum12 said:

You are correct about Superman and Batman, but that extends to all of it, not just Stan. I still don't understand why you have such animosity towards Stan, it's almost like he stole your wife or something.

Very easy to answer.

1. He STOLE, both CREDIT and PAY from two of the greatest, creative artists in history. Bob Kane only stole CREDIT - he paid his people for the work - but somehow he got turned into the greatest villain in comics history.

2. Lee doubled down late in life saying he created ALL the concepts himself and simply assigned an artist to the work. The biggest lie in the history of comics. I find that disgusting. 

On 10/28/2023 at 8:52 AM, jimjum12 said:

I've tried to stay away, as this is your thread, but this mess about Strange being so surely a Ditko original even after so many similar concepts came out *ahem* BEFORE Dr. Strange.

Stan TOLD us it was.

Stan Lee, writing to Jerry Bails:

“Well, we have a new character in the works for Strange Tales, just a 5-page filler named Dr. Strange. Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him— ’Twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered (sic) we’d give it a chance…”

In August of 1964, Ditko would so infuriate Lee, that they would begin a slow process of no longer talking to each other, until eventually there would be ZERO contact. This has been confirmed by people who were there, including Houseroy.

Ditko wrote the Amazing Spider-man and Doctor Strange on his own. How else was it done?

On 10/28/2023 at 8:52 AM, jimjum12 said:

The only common thread amongst all the Marvel examples of mystical heroism is STAN, yet you insist he had nothing to do with it, as usual. Probably one of the best reference sites on the internet deals with those lousy failure comics made by Atlas, by the way. There are MANY of us that adore that "crapolla" that Stan oversaw before Ditko and Kirby came in.  GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

When did I say Atlas Comics were crappola? Just the opposite, I thought it had some of Marvel's greatest work. And you used the correct terminology to describe Stan's part of it: oversaw.

I have nothing against Atlas Comics.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:50 AM, jimjum12 said:

On another note, anyone who can read Avengers 58 and claim that Roy can't write must be borderline person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point....

The CGC censor strikes again...

Roy was at his best when he was working with other peoples' ideas--he seldom had a truly original concept of his own. (Of course, ALL creative people build on what has gone before, to some extent.) I see him as a decent wordsmith, more literate that Stan Lee. Steve Englehart, on the other hand (that Black Panther panel!) hasn't aged well, in my opinion. I liked his 1970s work at the time, but his dialogue seems dated to me today.

[Dr. Haydn]

Heck and Ayers weren't creative powerhouses, but they WERE competent craftsmen. The comics field could use more people like them today!

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:50 AM, jimjum12 said:

I wasn't even referring to that. Who even cares what was on which cover ... this was the early 60's ... I don't think the Comics Code even allowed much in the way of Black Magic ... and the Bible Belt was a LOT bigger back then, I can't say I blame Stan for keeping the sorceror off the cover. For him to publish this at all was ballsy, but that was Stan.

Ha ha ha. See? It's YOU who are filtering.

He DID put Doctor Strange on the cover. Just much FEWER times than the others. 

The ONLY one he kept off the cover fewer times. 

On 10/28/2023 at 9:50 AM, jimjum12 said:

Same with Black Panther. You're just trapped in this bubble of hate and see what you want to see.

The character that Jack drew with an open mask, that Stan had covered up to hide is race? That Black Panther?

Fact.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:51 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Interestingly, the same could be said of Peter Parker--he was a jerk before his uncle's murder made him see the light and adopt a sense of responsibility toward others. 

Well... no, he was a naive kid. It was the powers that made him ACT a jerk, after having been a 'professional wallflower' his whole life. Which is a much more believable transformation. Usually real jerks never have a transformation into a hero. 

[jimjum12]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:54 AM, Prince Namor said:

1. He STOLE, both CREDIT and PAY from two of the greatest, creative artists in history.

He gave everyone credit ... look in the caption box of almost every splash that you've posted... when NO other publishers were. Ditko didn't stick around long enough for pay, but Kirby made a killing, so much so that the owner started complaining and asking why. They were compensated based on the AGREEMENTS they made and the pay structure used by the ENTIRE industry ... but to you, it's all Stan. Wow. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:58 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

The CGC censor strikes again...

Roy was at his best when he was working with other peoples' ideas--he seldom had a truly original concept of his own. (Of course, ALL creative people build on what has gone before, to some extent.) I see him as a decent wordsmith, more literate that Stan Lee. Steve Englehart, on the other hand (that Black Panther panel!) hasn't aged well, in my opinion. I liked his 1970s work at the time, but his dialogue seems dated to me today.

Tottally agree.

But that 'ripping pages out of Robert E. Howard novels and highlighting parts of it to send to artists and say, "Here's next months Conan story" is pretty bad...

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:06 AM, jimjum12 said:

He gave everyone credit ... look in the caption box of almost every splash that you've posted... when NO other publishers were. Ditko didn't stick around long enough for pay, but Kirby made a killing, so much so that the owner started complaining and asking why. They were compensated based on the AGREEMENTS they made and the pay structure used by the ENTIRE industry ... but to you, it's all Stan. Wow. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

That weren't paid for the writing. Stan was. And thus he could claim ownership. Which he used to make himself rich. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:00 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Heck and Ayers weren't creative powerhouses, but they WERE competent craftsmen. The comics field could use more people like them today!

Absolutely. Can't read a lot of today's comics...

[jimjum12]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:06 AM, Prince Namor said:

Tottally agree.

But that 'ripping pages out of Robert E. Howard novels and highlighting parts of it to send to artists and say, "Here's next months Conan story" is pretty bad...

Not if you're trying to adapt RE Howard stories .... 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:13 AM, jimjum12 said:

Not if you're trying to adapt RE Howard stories .... 

Calling yourself the 'writer' on an adaptation... more thievery. 

Especially since we can now SEE Roy's 'script' from early Conan issues (when he actually took the time to write one) and know exactly how much Barry Windsor Smith added to the stories. Roy just got lazier with it as time went on, because he knew the artist would do the work that he got paid for. Stan taught him well. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:58 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Steve Englehart, on the other hand (that Black Panther panel!) hasn't aged well, in my opinion. I liked his 1970s work at the time, but his dialogue seems dated to me today.

I re-read Kirby's Fourth World and it doesn't bother me at all. I see even more layered meaning in it as time goes on.

Re-reading some of Englehart's work... OMG...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:06 AM, Prince Namor said:

But that 'ripping pages out of Robert E. Howard novels and highlighting parts of it to send to artists and say, "Here's next month's Conan story" is pretty bad...

Nothing wrong with that, as long as you clearly acknowledge the source. Otherwise, it's plagiarism, plain and simple.

[Dr. Haydn]

Here's the Englehart dialogue I alluded to earlier. I forgot that I saw it on a different site. Sorry for any confusion!

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:06 AM, Prince Namor said:

Tottally agree.

But that 'ripping pages out of Robert E. Howard novels and highlighting parts of it to send to artists and say, "Here's next months Conan story" is pretty bad...

Roy often implied that his favourite work was adapting pulps and old classics. i.e. stories that had already been written.

[Dr. Haydn]

 

On 10/28/2023 at 8:04 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Roy often implied that his favourite work was adapting pulps and old classics. i.e. stories that had already been written.

And that's OK--if the credits had read Story: Howard; Additional Dialogue: Thomas. I think there's some fine stuff in the Conan run, bit the credits are...misleading, to be charitable. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Here's something comparable from the music field. Notice that Beethoven gets no credit for creating the source material (OK, I suppose he at least got his name in the title.)

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:36 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

 

And that's OK--if the credits had read Story: Howard; Additional Dialogue: Thomas. I think there's some fine stuff in the Conan run, bit the credits are...misleading, to be charitable. 

I always found that Roy Thomas was only as good as the artists he worked with -- fantastic with Neal Adams and Barry Smith, not so great with Don Heck or Frank Robbins. It's almost as if the penciler does the bulk of the work and determines whether a comic will be outstanding or mediocre, irrespective of who scripts it at the end.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Steven Valdez
Added a comma where I felt it was needed, in hindsight..

[Math Teacher]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:34 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Added a comma where I felt it was needed, in hindsight..

Let's eat, kids.
Let's eat kids.
Punctuation matters! 

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/29/2023 at 11:13 PM, Math Teacher said:

Let's eat, kids.
Let's eat kids.
Punctuation matters! 

I hope I wasn't outta line with that crack about DC comics being seemingly written and drawn by math teachers ... sorry about that, Chief.