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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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In 1963 Marvel put out 142 titles over 12 months (11.83 per month) and sales would grow to over 20 million for the first time in at least 6 years (22,530,000). After the price increase to 12 cents had stunted some of their growth in 1962 (only 143,157 avg print run per book - down 10,000 copies per book from 1961), they gained it back, jumping to 158,661 copies per book.

This is hardly a sales sensation, as the Superman Family of books sold 4 PLUS times that and even Dennis the Menace, Archie, Walt Disney Comics and Stories, sold 3 times that. Woody Woodpecker averaged 217,000 copies a month.

1960 -103  - 16,100,000 - 156,310

1961 -122  - 18,700,000 - 153,278

1962 -133  - 19,040,000 - 143,157

1963 -142 - 22,530,000 - 158,661

So it looks like part of Marvel’s actual growth was in additional titles being added. We still don’t know what FF or ASM was selling, but we can get a rough estimate based on the numbers we do have.

These titles are verified through Statement of Publication numbers (verified by Comichron.com).

 

Rawhide Kid #40                  194,150 (32-37)  6 issues - 1,164,900 total copies sold (Up 62,967 per issue!) 

Kid Colt Outlaw #117            192,690 (108-113) 6 issues - 1,156,140 total copies sold (Up 47,346 per issue)

Tales to Astonish #56           189,390  (39-50)  12 issues - 2,272,680 total copies sold (Up 50,223 per issue)

Strange Tales #121               189,305 (104-115) 12 issues - 2,271,660 total copies sold (Up 52,668 per issue)

Tales of Suspense #52          188,110 (37-48) 12 issues - 2,257,320 total copies sold (Up 61,970 per issue)

Journey Into Mystery #103    187,895 132,113  (87-98) 12 issues - 2,256,840 total copies sold (Up 55,957 per issue)

Patsy Walker #106                174,375 (98-103)  6 issues - 1,046,250 total copies sold (Up 25,303 per issue)

Millie the Model #120            173,925 (114-119) 6  issues  - 1,043,550 total copies sold - (Up 33,925 per issue) (*est. 140,000 per issue 1962)

 

For whatever reason - we don’t get to see the FF or ASM, but we do see that the books that Kirby has left - TTA, TOS, ST, and JIM, though up from the first year of 12 cent prices, have all dropped BELOW Rawhide Kid and Kid Colt Outlaw and are STILL under 200,000 copies.

So using the numbers we do have with a little creative math, these would be the rest of the books split up with the remaining sales for 1963 (again, estimated):

 

Kathy                                    (#20-25) 6 issues (est. 90,000 per issue) - 540,000 total copies sold

Fantastic Four (4-12)            (#10-21) 12 issues (est. 240,000per issue) - 2,800,000 total copies sold

Amazing Spider-man            (#1-7) 7 issues (est. 235,000per issue) - 1,645,000 total copies sold

Two Gun Kid                         (#61-66) 6 issues (est. 120,000 per issue) - 720,000 total copies sold

Modeling with Millie               (#20-27) 8 issues (est. 120,000 per issue) - 960,000 total copies sold

Patsy & Hedy                        (#86-91) 6 issues - (est. 120000 per issue) - 720,000 total copies sold

Gunsmoke Western              (#74-77) 4 issues - (est. 110,000 per issue) - 440,000 total copies sold

Linda Carter                          (#9)        1 issue - (est. 80,000 per issue) - 80,000 total copies sold

Incredible Hulk                       (#5-6)    2 issues - (est. 75,000 per issue) - 150,000 total copies sold

Love Romances                     (#103-106) 4 issues - (est. 80,000 per issue) - 320,000 total copies sold

Sgt. Fury                                (#1-4)     4 issues - (est. 200,000 per issue) - 800,000 total copies sold

Millie the Model Annual          (#2)        1 issue - (est. 130,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Strange Tales Annual             (#2)        1 issue - (est. 130,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Fantastic Four Annual             (#1)        1 issue -  (est. 150,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Avengers                                (#1-2)      2 issues - (est. 190,000 per issue) - 190,000 total copies sold

X-Men                                     (#1-2)      2 issues - (est. 185,000 per issue) - 185,000 total copies sold

 

It’s possible that ASM was already outselling FF based on some things Stan has said during this period and the Fanzine reaction to the character which has immediately skyrocketed. But neither number is… a huge success compared to other publishers. To Marvel it has to seem as if FF and ASM are their biggest seller they’ve had in, again 6 years - because most likely they are. Another year of Stan pushing the line relentlessly in his promotion and another year of Jack and Steve having more and more control over their books (and Kirby’s return to Thor) would push these numbers even higher for 1964.

Kirby would pull back on giving Marvel new ideas for books and as such the growth of new titles would come to a screeching halt. After 1963, Marvel’s (i.e. Stan’s) only contribution to new titles would be variations - Daredevil in 1964 (apparently ordered by Goodman to usurp Lev Gleason's rights to the name - and 6 months late), a repeated concept in Gary Friedrich’s (Western) Ghost Rider in 1966, Archie Goodwin’s Capt. Savage and His Leatherneck Raiders in 1967, and Captain Marvel in 1968 (again, Goodman going for a copyright)

Stan would go his final 9 years writing at Marvel, not really creating anything new and original - instead wasting his time on silly ideas like Monsters Unlimited, Not Brand Echh, and bringing back Homer, the Happy Ghost. And reprints. Lots of reprints.

Meanwhile Kirby would direct all of his creative energy for the next few years on the books he would focus himself on: FF, Thor, Captain America and Nick Fury. Not surprisingly, this is where the most creative ideas of the next 6 years would come from. (Kirby would stick with X-Men for another year+, and do layouts - i.e. write it - for another year after this, creating even more iconic characters...)

Ditko would slowly begin to assert his will on the ASM and Doctor Strange, not trusting Lee’s instinct’s at all, nor the will of the ‘fans’ and what they want. Lee apparently is ok with this as he even trusts Ditko to rework the Hulk to bring back, after having redesigned Iron Man's armor to much satisfaction.

Both of these creators, being able to work less obstructed on their characters, is what would really kick these stories into another level.

Stan's tireless promotion would definitely help, but... 

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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And Just in case you've... been hiding under a rock... here's how to catch up!

 

Part ONE (1954):

 

Part TWO (1955):

 

Part THREE (1956a): 

 

Part FOUR (1956b): 

 

Part FIVE (1957): 

 

Part SIX (1958): 

 

Part SEVEN (1959): 

Part EIGHT (1960)

Part NINE (1961)

 

Part TEN:

 

Part ELEVEN:

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

For January, Marvel would again release 11 titles to the newsstand.

 

January 3rd, 1964

Avengers #4

Journey Into Mystery #102

Sgt. Fury #6

Tales to Astonish #54

X-Men #4

 

January 10th, 1964

Amazing Spider-man #11

Fantastic Four #25 

Patsy & Hedy #93

Rawhide Kid #39 

Strange Tales #119

Tales of Suspense #52

 

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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Page 10, panel 1: the policeman's remark "But you've come back...just when the world has need of such a man!" is interesting, given the timing of the story's publication.

This comic appeared two months after JFK's assassination. No doubt this terrible event had an effect on the creative team. With a country in crisis, what better way to sound a note of hope than to bring back a character who personified American ideals?

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Dr. Haydn

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A few random thoughts:

The Wasp disappears after distracting Namor on page 18, reappearing only on page 23. I wonder what Jack had in mind for what she was doing in the interim. (I assume we can rule out Stan's remark that she was "powdering her nose"?)

 

Whose idea was it to make Rick Jones a Bucky clone? Granted, that's a more interesting use of the character than having him be the Marvel version of Snapper Carr.

 

Page 19, last panel: Thor calls Namor a "witless mutant"! Was this the first time that anyone suggested such a thing? (That would make him a cross between Sapiens, Mermanus, and Superior!)

 

Page 18: I love Iron Man's reference to Hugh Boulder! Didn't Marvel have a proofreader by 1964, especially for a landmark issue such as this, billed as a really big deal on the splash page? Part of me is surprised Stan didn't retcon the name as the secret identity of Spragg, the Living Hill.

 

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Mmehdy

Mmehdy

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On 8/12/2023 at 10:28 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

A few random thoughts:

The Wasp disappears after distracting Namor on page 18, reappearing only on page 23. I wonder what Jack had in mind for what she was doing in the interim. (I assume we can rule out Stan's remark that she was "powdering her nose"?)

 

Whose idea was it to make Rick Jones a Bucky clone? Granted, that's a more interesting use of the character than having him be the Marvel version of Snapper Carr.

 

Page 19, last panel: Thor calls Namor a "witless mutant"! Was this the first time that anyone suggested such a thing? (That would make him a cross between Sapiens, Mermanus, and Superior!)

 

Page 18: I love Iron Man's reference to Hugh Boulder! Didn't Marvel have a proofreader by 1964, especially for a landmark issue such as this, billed as a really big deal on the splash page? Part of me is surprised Stan didn't retcon the name as the secret identity of Spragg, the Living Hill.

 

Still overall a great issue, ,man they dont make them like they used toi...12 cents...what a deal

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Zonker

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On 8/12/2023 at 4:12 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Avengers #4 - Stan misleads twice, first saying 'Gloriously Written by' and then in his additional note (also on Page 1), he says his 'First --script' was in Captain America.

 

Don't you think he's talking about the 2-page text piece that ran in the Golden Age Cap #3?  
 

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Dr. Haydn

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On 8/12/2023 at 2:37 PM, Mmehdy said:

Still overall a great issue, ,man they dont make them like they used toi...12 cents...what a deal

Agreed. Stan and Jack were firing on all cylinders, for sure! 

That's why "Hugh Boulder" sticks out like an unsightly pimple on a beautiful face.

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jimjum12

jimjum12

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On 8/12/2023 at 1:28 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Part of me is surprised Stan didn't retcon the name as the secret identity of Spragg, the Living Hill.

.... is this the same "Spragg, The Dirt Clod Who Lived!!" ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

 

...perhaps we can cede the creation of Spragg to Stan, you know, to keep peace in the family. 

Edited by jimjum12
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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Journey Into Mystery #102 - Tales of Asgard - 'Written' by Stan Lee Illustrated by Jack Kirby Inked by Paul Reinman Lettered by Art Simek

No room for a Larry Lieber 5 page story here. Supposedly he's the co-creator of Thor, and wrote all of those great stories and scripted all of the monster tales for Kirby, but 6 months after his name appears in the credits, he's off the book, never to write it again. Hmmm...

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 8/13/2023 at 3:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Journey Into Mystery #102 - 'Cunningly Conceived' by: Stan Lee - 'Daringly Drawn by Jack Kirby - 'Ingeniously Inked by Chuck Stone and Lovingly Lettered by Art Simek.

Kirby is back on Thor and the difference is amazing. 

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Marvel now enters the Stone Age!

Chic was no Sinnott, but his inks did give Kirby's pencils a consistent, professional sheen.

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Dr. Haydn

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On 8/12/2023 at 12:42 AM, Prince Namor said:

In 1963 Marvel put out 142 titles over 12 months (11.83 per month) and sales would grow to over 20 million for the first time in at least 6 years (22,530,000). After the price increase to 12 cents had stunted some of their growth in 1962 (only 143,157 avg print run per book - down 10,000 copies per book from 1961), they gained it back, jumping to 158,661 copies per book.

This is hardly a sales sensation, as the Superman Family of books sold 4 PLUS times that and even Dennis the Menace, Archie, Walt Disney Comics and Stories, sold 3 times that. Woody Woodpecker averaged 217,000 copies a month.

1960 -103  - 16,100,000 - 156,310

1961 -122  - 18,700,000 - 153,278

1962 -133  - 19,040,000 - 143,157

1963 -142 - 22,530,000 - 158,661

So it looks like part of Marvel’s actual growth was in additional titles being added. We still don’t know what FF or ASM was selling, but we can get a rough estimate based on the numbers we do have.

These titles are verified through Statement of Publication numbers (verified by Comichron.com).

 

Rawhide Kid #40                  194,150 (32-37)  6 issues - 1,164,900 total copies sold (Up 62,967 per issue!) 

Kid Colt Outlaw #117            192,690 (108-113) 6 issues - 1,156,140 total copies sold (Up 47,346 per issue)

Tales to Astonish #56           189,390  (39-50)  12 issues - 2,272,680 total copies sold (Up 50,223 per issue)

Strange Tales #121               189,305 (104-115) 12 issues - 2,271,660 total copies sold (Up 52,668 per issue)

Tales of Suspense #52          188,110 (37-48) 12 issues - 2,257,320 total copies sold (Up 61,970 per issue)

Journey Into Mystery #103    187,895 132,113  (87-98) 12 issues - 2,256,840 total copies sold (Up 55,957 per issue)

Patsy Walker #106                174,375 (98-103)  6 issues - 1,046,250 total copies sold (Up 25,303 per issue)

Millie the Model #120            173,925 (114-119) 6  issues  - 1,043,550 total copies sold - (Up 33,925 per issue) (*est. 140,000 per issue 1962)

 

For whatever reason - we don’t get to see the FF or ASM, but we do see that the books that Kirby has left - TTA, TOS, ST, and JIM, though up from the first year of 12 cent prices, have all dropped BELOW Rawhide Kid and Kid Colt Outlaw and are STILL under 200,000 copies.

So using the numbers we do have with a little creative math, these would be the rest of the books split up with the remaining sales for 1963 (again, estimated):

 

Kathy                                    (#20-25) 6 issues (est. 90,000 per issue) - 540,000 total copies sold

Fantastic Four (4-12)            (#10-21) 12 issues (est. 240,000per issue) - 2,800,000 total copies sold

Amazing Spider-man            (#1-7) 7 issues (est. 235,000per issue) - 1,645,000 total copies sold

Two Gun Kid                         (#61-66) 6 issues (est. 120,000 per issue) - 720,000 total copies sold

Modeling with Millie               (#20-27) 8 issues (est. 120,000 per issue) - 960,000 total copies sold

Patsy & Hedy                        (#86-91) 6 issues - (est. 120000 per issue) - 720,000 total copies sold

Gunsmoke Western              (#74-77) 4 issues - (est. 110,000 per issue) - 440,000 total copies sold

Linda Carter                          (#9)        1 issue - (est. 80,000 per issue) - 80,000 total copies sold

Incredible Hulk                       (#5-6)    2 issues - (est. 75,000 per issue) - 150,000 total copies sold

Love Romances                     (#103-106) 4 issues - (est. 80,000 per issue) - 320,000 total copies sold

Sgt. Fury                                (#1-4)     4 issues - (est. 200,000 per issue) - 800,000 total copies sold

Millie the Model Annual          (#2)        1 issue - (est. 130,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Strange Tales Annual             (#2)        1 issue - (est. 130,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Fantastic Four Annual             (#1)        1 issue -  (est. 150,000 per issue) - 130,000 total copies sold

Avengers                                (#1-2)      2 issues - (est. 190,000 per issue) - 190,000 total copies sold

X-Men                                     (#1-2)      2 issues - (est. 185,000 per issue) - 185,000 total copies sold

 

It’s possible that ASM was already outselling FF based on some things Stan has said during this period and the Fanzine reaction to the character which has immediately skyrocketed. But neither number is… a huge success compared to other publishers. To Marvel it has to seem as if FF and ASM are their biggest seller they’ve had in, again 6 years - because most likely they are. Another year of Stan pushing the line relentlessly in his promotion and another year of Jack and Steve having more and more control over their books (and Kirby’s return to Thor) would push these numbers even higher for 1964.

Kirby would pull back on giving Marvel new ideas for books and as such the growth of new titles would come to a screeching halt. After 1963, Marvel’s (i.e. Stan’s) only contribution to new titles would be variations - Daredevil in 1964 (apparently ordered by Goodman to usurp Lev Gleason's rights to the name - and 6 months late), a repeated concept in Gary Friedrich’s (Western) Ghost Rider in 1966, Archie Goodwin’s Capt. Savage and His Leatherneck Raiders in 1967, and Captain Marvel in 1968 (again, Goodman going for a copyright)

Stan would go his final 9 years writing at Marvel, not really creating anything new and original - instead wasting his time on silly ideas like Monsters Unlimited, Not Brand Echh, and bringing back Homer, the Happy Ghost. And reprints. Lots of reprints.

Meanwhile Kirby would direct all of his creative energy for the next few years on the books he would focus himself on: FF, Thor, Captain America and Nick Fury. Not surprisingly, this is where the most creative ideas of the next 6 years would come from. (Kirby would stick with X-Men for another year+, and do layouts - i.e. write it - for another year after this, creating even more iconic characters...)

Ditko would slowly begin to assert his will on the ASM and Doctor Strange, not trusting Lee’s instinct’s at all, nor the will of the ‘fans’ and what they want. Lee apparently is ok with this as he even trusts Ditko to rework the Hulk to bring back, after having redesigned Iron Man's armor to much satisfaction.

Both of these creators, being able to work less obstructed on their characters, is what would really kick these stories into another level.

Stan's tireless promotion would definitely help, but... 

 

A small correction: The Gene Colan/Stan Lee Captain Marvel debuted in late 1967 in Marvel Super Heroes #12 (cover date December 1967). I guess this was shortly after the debut of the Myron Fass Captain Marvel (Split!), about which the less said, the better.

Edited by Dr. Haydn
minor rewording
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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1964

Sgt. Fury #6 - 'Written' by Ex-Sergeant U.S. Army: Stan Lee - 'Illustrated by Ex-Infantryman U.S. Army by Jack Kirby - Inked by Geo. Bell (George Roussos) and Lettered by Art Simek.

Not sure if we've gone into this much but... Stan sort of overstates his military duty; he was in the U.S. Army Signal Corps, a branch of the U.S. Army that specializes exclusively with communications and information systems. He was stationed in New Jersey and later Indiana. He joined almost a year after Pear Harbor, after Martin Goodman, as he did for others in his family, was able to get him the cushy detail stateside (per Vince Fago). In interviews, Stan talks about his time in the military and how he'd borrow someone's car every weekend, taking different women out on dates. 

Part ONE:

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