Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:06 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Fantastic, thank YOU sir!

I may still have a copy of that CBM. If you decide you need it, and I haven't already sold it, I'll mail it to you on the house, because I like your contributions. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

Lewis still has the letter he got from Fabulous Flo, outlining which back issues could still be purchased from Marvel, as well as the books he received from them. That's how long My Boy has been collecting. He's been to Gary Carter's house. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 23, 2023 by jimjum12

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:11 PM, jimjum12 said:

I may still have a copy of that CBM. If you decide you need it, and I haven't already sold it, I'll mail it to you on the house, because I like your contributions. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

That's very nice of you, and likewise on your posts. I do live in Australia however, so postage might be a bit crazy. I recently paid $US55 for the delivery of three raw comics from the States.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:19 AM, Steven Valdez said:

That's very nice of you, and likewise on your posts. I do live in Australia however, so postage might be a bit crazy.

I'll gas up the Jet Ski and bring it myself. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:20 PM, jimjum12 said:

I'll gas up the Jet Ski and bring it myself. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

See you soon!

[shadroch]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:36 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Who were they buying in bulk from? The publishers didn't sell directly to dealers in those days and they still don't. There were no legitimate comic book wholesalers until the direct market began in the early 1980s.

That's not at all true.  In Nassau County, there were three IND distributers- newsstand delivery companies.  Two sold comics to the public before they were on the stands. Anyone could buy there.  Dealers, collectors and speculators could set up accounts with these distributors. In 1977, Imperial put in new rules -an account had to buy an average of three of each title and spend $200 a month retail- about $150 wholesale. Books like Spectacular Spiderman 1, Nova 1 and HTD were sold to dealers and speculators before they were distributed.  These sales were legit, and not some books that fell of a truck.  There was some fraud in the business, but to say all the big dealers were all engaging in massive fraud is nonsense.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:48 PM, shadroch said:

Books like Spectacular Spiderman 1, Nova 1 and HTD were sold to dealers and speculators before they were distributed.

WOW!! The plot thickens .. I eagerly anticipated each one of those exact books at the time, and none of them ever turned up in Australia. I guess because those distributors you mention, and more like them across America, were offloading from the back of their trucks instead of doing their legitimate job. If they were newsstand delivery companies, why were they selling to the general public instead of, you know -- delivering to the newsstands??

"These sales were legit." Excuse me, how so??

Were those off-the-books-under-the-table non-newsstand sales reported to the publishers? Of course they were

No reason why they couldn't sell the books in advance then use the 'honor-system' to later claim they never sold in the first place and were shredded.

Thanks for raising such a glaring example of rampant distributor fraud.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:02 PM, jimjum12 said:

Here's a link to Lewis' website ... there are hours and hours of 1st class journalism devoted to comicfandom from a collector of over 60 years. I've also seen him eat an entire large Italian Pizza by himself, I'm talking meat-lovers'. 

THE LEADER'S REPORT

Fascinating article. Mr Bell says his father had a bookstore in the later 1950s. His dad was buying unsold comic returns from distributors in the 1950s for one cent apiece in bundles of 100 per issue. He would then sell them to customers for 3 cents each, until he realised in-demand books like the ECs and Disneys could fetch as much as 25 cents apiece.

When his dad retired in 1961, Robert set up his own bookstore. That's the year Fantastic Four #1 came out, and he says he had 100 copies of it in that first year. "They would have been mostly mint." He was already selling them for $2 each just after it was published.

He also had a similar number of Amazing Spider-Man #1, and even more of X-Men and Avengers #1 -- around 200 of each.

When asked where he got his comics from, he replied "Distributors, overstocks." He also picked up a lot of Golden Age from collectors when they tired of their collections.

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2023 at 2:15 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Fascinating article. Mr Bell says his father had a bookstore in the later 1950s. His dad was buying unsold comic returns from distributors in the 1950s for one cent apiece in bundles of 100 per issue. He would then sell them to customers for 3 cents each, until he realised in-demand books like the ECs and Disneys could fetch as much as 25 cents apiece.

When his dad retired in 1961, Robert set up his own bookstore. That's the year Fantastic Four #1 came out, and he says he had 100 copies of it in that first year. "They would have been mostly mint." He was already selling them for $2 each just after it was published.

He also had a similar number of Amazing Spider-Man #1, and even more of X-Men and Avengers #1 -- around 200 of each.

When asked where he got his comics from, he replied "Distributors, overstocks." He also picked up a lot of Golden Age from collectors when they tired of their collections.

I just finished it again as well. Looks like I had my facts off a little... maybe it was Rogofsky I was thinking about who had regular distribution. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Prince Namor]

https://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg70.html?fbclid=IwAR11eErY0NIT-Th4SC6wwA6NO6nKWLedouZuqQnytzwhPGf6n3XcyIEF_9E

 

ROZANSKI: " To explain, affidavit returns are comics which were originally sent to certain very powerful newsstand distributors on what is known as a "sale or return" basis. These comics were ostensibly put out for sale by these distributors, didn't sell within the allotted 30-day sales period, and were then pulled back off the newsstand and replaced by new issues. As a part of the contract that the publishers make with the newsstand distributors, all unsold newsstand issues were then supposed to be destroyed. In fact, most distributors are required to "strip" the covers (or the top third of the covers) off all unsold issues, and mail them to the publishers as proof of destruction.

 

Where this system went totally wrong was when certain very large distributors were able to make arrangements to simply send in notarized affidavits of destruction, rather than actual stripped covers. Books that were then supposedly destroyed were simply shipped out with a willing trash hauler, who then sold them into the secondary market, and split the money with the distributor. Joe Brancatelli wrote a wonderful expose of this practice in his short-lived INSIDE COMICS newspaper, back in about 1980. If I remember the details of Joe's story correctly, the FBI investigated the entire newsstand distribution system at that time, and there were indictments of certain players. It was strongly implied that the FBI believed that this entire process was all being run by elements of organized crime.

 

Soon after I read Brancatelli's circa 1980 article, I happened to meet with the VP of Marketing for a major comics publisher. One group of items I had kept from my 1978 purchase of Richard Alf's mail order comics business was a stack of carton labels that Alf had torn off of some unopened boxes of bulk books that he had purchased from a certain East Coast wholesale back issue comics supplier. This bulk dealer was so brazen about selling affidavit returns that he never even bothered to remove the original distributor shipping labels off of the unopened cartons of mint comics that he was dumping into the back issue market. Alf felt sure that these labels would be of great interest to the publishers.

 

When I showed my friend the comics executive the labels, he blanched, and asked me to immediately destroy them. He then told me a very complex story about having set up a "sting" at the Sparta printing plant the year before, where he had a plate change made in just the copies of books going to the distributor who's name and address were on the labels Alf had saved. He kept the information on the plate change completely secret, limited to only a couple of top Spartan Printing executives, and the pressmen. Soon after the books were released, he told me that he had a couple of big guys in suits visit him in his office. They placed copies of the specially marked books that had been shipped to the alledged affidavit returns distributor on his desk, and explained to him that they knew exactly how these books came to be different from the rest of the print run, and why he did it. They then suggested, very politely, that he never try such a marking process ever again. I have no doubt in my mind that this powerful publishing executive was terrified of ever crossing these very dangerous people ever again. He was warning me off of revealing my information not only to protect me, but also to protect himself.

 

In looking at the comics in the warehouse, I couldn't help but notice that the issues stopped at about 1979, right about the time of the FBI probe. When I asked, the seller told me that his father had made arrangements to pick up large quantities of comics every week from a certain very large East Coast newsstand distributor (who shall remain nameless...), and that this arrangement had been in place for decades. Given that there were quite substantial stacks of single issues in the deal, and that other boxes were completely full of issues that were mixed up, but that all came out in the same month, it seemed highly likely to me that these books were the fruits of some sort of affidavit return arrangement. Even more disturbing, I saw many instances where there were entire unopened case lots of certain issues of comics, where the distributor obviously never even put the books out for sale. I eventually discovered that the highest number of a single issue in the warehouse was 14,000 copies of one 12 cent cover price Marvel comic."

[Steven Valdez]

 Thanks to Mr Shadroch, I finally know why the first issues of books like Spectacular Spider-Man, Nova and Howard the Duck never even made it to the stands in Australia, and possibly much of the USA as well.

I remember I had to buy those issues from a dealer in Canada for $2.50 a piece (10 times cover price), just a month or two after they (were to supposed to have) hit the stands.

Also: "I probably had 2000 copies of Spectacular Spider-Man #1." Robert Bell

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:12 PM, Prince Namor said:

He then told me a very complex story about having set up a "sting" at the Sparta printing plant the year before, where he had a plate change made in just the copies of books going to the distributor who's name and address were on the labels Alf had saved. He kept the information on the plate change completely secret, limited to only a couple of top Spartan Printing executives, and the pressmen.

I wish I knew which book this was. Would love to have a copy of this 'Mob Entrapment' variant.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Avengers #5 - An Epic Tale Told With High Drama and Heroic Dignity by: Stan Lee (The amount of overcompensation to put forth the idea that he wrote these stories is outrageous)   Illustrated with Deep Sincerity and Dazzling Beauty by Jack Kirby

Inked by Paul Reinman   Lettered by S. Rosen

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Avengers #5 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Avengers #5 - The Avengers gets a Letters Page!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Avengers #5 - AD page

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 7:48 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

On 9/23/2023 at 7:47 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

 

Avengers #5 -

Part TWO:

 

At last, an issue I actually have an original copy of. I always thought it odd that a subterranean being would reckon time by the moon (last panel of page 14).

[shadroch]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:13 PM, Steven Valdez said:

WOW!! The plot thickens .. I eagerly anticipated each one of those exact books at the time, and none of them ever turned up in Australia. I guess because those distributors you mention, and more like them across America, were offloading from the back of their trucks instead of doing their legitimate job. If they were newsstand delivery companies, why were they selling to the general public instead of, you know -- delivering to the newsstands??

"These sales were legit." Excuse me, how so??

Were those off-the-books-under-the-table non-newsstand sales reported to the publishers? Of course they were

No reason why they couldn't sell the books in advance then use the 'honor-system' to later claim they never sold in the first place and were shredded.

Thanks for raising such a glaring example of rampant distributor fraud.

 

 

The distributor's job was to sell comics. They were open to the public and sold to the public. Your claims are utterly baseless. I, and hundreds of collectors/vendors/flea market booth sellers and speculators, bought our books legitimately and above board, and for you to continue to call the sales off the books and fraud is simply ignorant. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Imperial had one of the first computerized sales systems, and you'd get a dot matrix-style receipt that took longer to print than doing it by hand would have. It listed the title, the issue, the Curtis circulating number, amount of books bought, the cover price, and the discount price.  Some sellers were able to get thirty-day terms, but most paid cash.  In the summer of 76, I sacrificed many a six-pack as my funds were limited and went towards my comic purchases.  For you to say the books I bought were somehow ill-gotten is wrong on so many levels and can only be excused by your ignorance of the subject..

The week Spectacular Spiderman 1 came out, their small parking lot was full, and people were buying it by shopping carts. To suggest these sales were illegal is both wrong and a disservice to the many dealers who built this hobby.  Affidavit fraud existed and was a known element in the hobby, but to suggest the distributors didn't report public sales is simply not true.  

Creating a fantasy about Kirby getting screwed by mob-run distributors, out to get him is bizarre.  Blame the editors, blame the rewrite artists, blame the mob. Blame Stan.  Kirby went to DC because he wanted full responsibility and to produce his own material.  He did so, and it fell flat.  It wasn't anyone else's fault. 

Certainly not the distributors. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:04 PM, shadroch said:

The distributor's job was to sell comics. They were open to the public and sold to the public. Your claims are utterly baseless. I, and hundreds of collectors/vendors/flea market booth sellers and speculators, bought our books legitimately and above board, and for you to continue to call the sales off the books and fraud is simply ignorant. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Imperial had one of the first computerized sales systems, and you'd get a dot matrix-style receipt that took longer to print than doing it by hand would have. It listed the title, the issue, the Curtis circulating number, amount of books bought, the cover price, and the discount price.  Some sellers were able to get thirty-day terms, but most paid cash.  In the summer of 76, I sacrificed many a six-pack as my funds were limited and went towards my comic purchases.  For you to say the books I bought were somehow ill-gotten is wrong on so many levels and can only be excused by your ignorance of the subject..

The week Spectacular Spiderman 1 came out, their small parking lot was full, and people were buying it by shopping carts. To suggest these sales were illegal is both wrong and a disservice to the many dealers who built this hobby.  Affidavit fraud existed and was a known element in the hobby, but to suggest the distributors didn't report public sales is simply not true.  

Creating a fantasy about Kirby getting screwed by mob-run distributors, out to get him is bizarre.  Blame the editors, blame the rewrite artists, blame the mob. Blame Stan.  Kirby went to DC because he wanted full responsibility and to produce his own material.  He did so, and it fell flat.  It wasn't anyone else's fault. 

Certainly not the distributors. 

With all due respect (not that you deserve much for your incessant rudeness), you're deluded and mistaken about absolutely everything you say. Those parking lot sales of undistributed comics were fraudulent and you were a party to them, by your own admission. I'd say 'for shame', but you seem to not understand what you were doing then and are still justifying it almost 50 years later.

Ask anyone who was running the books at a comics publisher in the '70s if they saw a red cent from these sketchy car park sales.

If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat, but you'll need to provide evidence that events like the bottom-feeding frenzy you described were sanctioned by Marvel or any other publisher.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[shadroch]

Seriously, you are incredibly mistaken.   Obviously, you know nothing about how magazine distributors worked at the time.  You insult the thousands of small businesses and hobbyists who had the foresight to take advantage of the wholesale side of the business.