Boxes, Bags (Mylar), backing boards, and chamber paper (oh my!) 1 1

[FluorideInMyWater]

So i've been away from the this stuff for 15 years and i don't know what people are doing as far as storaing their comics for longevity and protection.

I stared collecting during the bronze era (6 5/8" x 10 1/4").  there used to be bags and boxes that size to store them in but it looks like all that is discontinued.

When I re packed by uncles collection (lots of silver age) i used magazine sized boxes and 4-mil mylar with flap (size is obsolete is appears), and corresponding acid free backing boards), and microChamber paper inside the comics.

i'm not sure if this method was overkill,especially with the 4mil mylar bags plus the backing boards.  perhaps adding the backing boards is overkill since 4mil mylar is pretty thick.

Now i'm trying to re package my own bronze age collection and nothing is a perfect match.  my bronze comics are 10 1/4" x 6 5/8" it seems like the only box that will fit is a standard short-box (7-5/8" x 10-7/8" x 15 1/2"), 2-mil mylar (7" x 10 1/2") and then microChamber paper (6 - 5/8 X 10 - 3/16" bronze)

So, is adding a backing board to this scenario way-overkill?  i would do 4-mil mylar but a lot of bronze comics are only worth $5.......not worth the price of the 4-mil. ($1+ each)

Is the 2-mil mylar sturdy enough to go without using backing boards?    and then it appears that both the Silver mylar and the backing boards are both 7" x 10 1/2".  i have no idea how exact the dimensions are but will the silver backing board fit in the silver mylar bag, or is it just too close in dimension.

 

so...

1 - what size boxes would you recommend?

2 - what size mylar would you recommend?  Silver (either 2 or 4 mil?)

3 - is it worth using silver backing boards with 4-mil mylar?  is it worth using backing boards with 2-mil mylar?

 

thanks in advance.  i know that's a mouthful!!!

john

[marvelmaniac]

Welcome To The Boards!!!

Without getting into specifics, I have 2000 books and have used 1 Mil, 1.4 Mil and 2 Mil Mylites with Acid Free Boards, I have bags that are for Golden Age and Silver Age books and all are stored in standard short boxes, you do not want books to be too loose or too tight in the bag, you want as Goldilocks said, bags that are "just right". I do have Golden Age books that are too small for the Golden Age bags but too large for Silver, apparently size was not consistent from issue to issue back then. The same is true for the boxes, Golden Age Books are Tight fitting in standard boxes but Silver/Bronze are fine, you also do not want to squeeze too many books into a box or leave too much room so the books fall over on top of each other.

IMO, yes the books need to be stored in Archival Safe Materials (Mylites) with Acid Free Boards, however, storage conditions may be more important than the the size/thickness of the Mylites/Boards/Boxes, bags and slabs are not airtight or UV protected and must be stored properly away from all UV light, humidity should be in the 40-50% range (not really feasible for the average person), consistent temps (60-70 degrees), away from all sources of moisture, away from any heat sources and extreme cold, not near any HVAC vents and not being stored in an unfinished attic/garage/basement and not stored directly on concrete.

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:34 AM, marvelmaniac said:

Welcome To The Boards!!!

Without getting into specifics, I have 2000 books and have used 1 Mil, 1.4 Mil and 2 Mil Mylites with Acid Free Boards, I have bags that are for Golden Age and Silver Age books and all are stored in standard short boxes, you do not want books to be too loose or too tight in the bag, you want as Goldilocks said, bags that are "just right". I do have Golden Age books that are too small for the Golden Age bags but too large for Silver, apparently size was not consistent from issue to issue back then. The same is true for the boxes, Golden Age Books are Tight fitting in standard boxes but Silver/Bronze are fine, you also do not want to squeeze too many books into a box or leave too much room so the books fall over on top of each other.

IMO, yes the books need to be stored in Archival Safe Materials (Mylites) with Acid Free Boards, however, storage conditions may be more important than the the size/thickness of the Mylites/Boards/Boxes, bags and slabs are not airtight or UV protected and must be stored properly away from all UV light, humidity should be in the 40-50% range (not really feasible for the average person), consistent temps (60-70 degrees), away from all sources of moisture, away from any heat sources and extreme cold, not near any HVAC vents and not being stored in an unfinished attic/garage/basement and not stored directly on concrete.

Thanks for the response!

So I'm not opposed to using mylar.  i started collecting in 1984 and the only time i ever saw mylar was at the old convention in LA at the Ambassador Hotel, where Bobby Kennedy was assignated.  they had monthly conventions.  the only comics i ever saw that were in mylar were x-men and maybe a few other high value items, but it was not the norm.  i think i had a 1 mil bag that was thinner than polypropylene ...but i regress.

I rebagged my uncles collection 15 years ago using BCW mylar and acid free backing boards (BCW).  15 years ago i think i had to buy magazine sized boxes in order to fit the mylar i bought.  there was no such thing as "current, modern, , or "regular". my bronze boxes are 8" wide.  those don't exist.  So i opted to buy Silver age boxes that are 7-5/8" x 10-7/8" x 15-1/2 (interior) and then a silver mylar bag that is 7 1/4 X 10 1/2.  So the sizes seem to work.  the question about using the boards was because the size is exactly the same as the bags.  in the past (30 years ago) you would need a board that was smaller than the bag.  if you used the exact same sizes, the boards would not fit into the mylar without having to bend them or cut them down to fit.  I guess this is NOT the case anymore (???)  that is cool by me.

I really don't want to have to rebag everything every 5 years.....or remove the backing boards and replace with new ones (the mylar would still be good)..so i got to thinking (never a good thing), what if i just bypass the backing boards and go for the 4-mil bags which are stiffer and similar to having 2-mil mylar with a backin board.  then there would be no cardboard inside to degrade at all.  however this is costly, since BCW charges more than $1 per mylar sheet.   which leads me to my next question......BCW vs Mylites.  looked around and read articles and posts of people who indicated that the bags are exactly the same in every way, but the Mylites are 1/2 the price of the BCW's!  I also read that the Gerber backing boards are better quality than the BCW's.  and also a fraction of the price.  is this a true statement?  in bulk the Mylite 4's are less than 35-cents each.  if they are really that thick and probably more rigid than the 2's, why not cut out the backing boards and just put in 4-mil mylar and not have to do anything ever again? (oh, i'm going to put archival microChamber paper in the actual comic book......either 1 or 2 sheets.)  if i'm not moving the comics around or rifling through looking for an issue i don't think there would be a big issue UNLESS: 1.  backing boards help fight mildew, degradation  better if you use them  than if you don't.  2 the backing boards provide more protection than just the mylar itself.

 

So i guess, BCW or Mylites?  Backing-Boards or Not?  i think if i were to use backing boards i would use 2-mil mylar instead of 4mil.

Thanks (in advance) again!

John

 

[shadroch]

Mylite2s and a backboard are the way to go. I use 7.25 boards.  Four mil mylars are too expensive to use on common books, imo.

Edited September 29, 2023 by shadroch

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:25 AM, shadroch said:

Mylite2s and a backboard are the way to go. I use 7.25 boards.  Four mil mylars are too expensive to use on common books, imo.

so are you using the boards in order to keep the comic flat, or because it's acid free, or other reason?

what $ price point do you consider a comic to not be worth the 4-mil?    less than $10?  less than $20?  less than $50?

[zzutak]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:42 AM, FluorideInMyWater said:

 Backing-Boards or Not?

If you use Mylar sleeves without backing boards, you will eventually crease or cut into a cover.  Guaranteed. 

[shadroch]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:46 AM, FluorideInMyWater said:

so are you using the boards in order to keep the comic flat, or because it's acid free, or other reason?

what $ price point do you consider a comic to not be worth the 4-mil?    less than $10?  less than $20?  less than $50?

Years ago, I bought 4,000 used mylars from a board member for pennies on the dollar, so my experience buying them is not typical.  I also have zero issues using different bags, unlike the many people here with OCD.  I had all my SA Marvel and DC in mylar, and for BA/CA  I'd usually go with great covers.  If I sold a book worth around $50, I'd usually switch it into a mylar before shipping. For awhile, I'd toss in a few free used mylars with most sales.

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:03 PM, zzutak said:

If you use Mylar sleeves without backing boards, you will eventually crease or cut into a cover.  Guaranteed. 

oh!  that is interesting.  how exactly does it cut into the cover if it is a flat surface on flat surface?  i believe you.  i just can't visualize

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:03 PM, shadroch said:

Years ago, I bought 4,000 used mylars from a board member for pennies on the dollar, so my experience buying them is not typical.  I also have zero issues using different bags, unlike the many people here with OCD.  I had all my SA Marvel and DC in mylar, and for BA/CA  I'd usually go with great covers.  If I sold a book worth around $50, I'd usually switch it into a mylar before shipping. For awhile, I'd toss in a few free used mylars with most sales.

so, i'm down with all mylar.........or poly for cheap comics with a backing board for rigidity.  when i bagged all my comics (that i inherited from my uncle) i used silver mylar but they would only fit in magazine boxes.  the sizes were all different than they are now.  and then there is my collection which is mostly bronze.  they are in poly from 1987.  they were in storage at my parents so i finally picked them up and need to deal with all aspects..bags, boards, microChhmber archival paper, etc.  i like to put 2 sheets in each comic since it is super cheap.  maybe just 1 sheet for cheap comics. 

money is really no issue.........i mean, yes, it is an issue, but i have to weight that against having to rebag with new boards every 5 years (?).  so i rather just use a system where i don't have to do anything in the future.  i'm willing to do 4-mil with just the comic book.....i think they are thick enough to stand on their own....heck, my bronze have been standing on their own for 38 years with poly and no backer boards.

now i read ZZUTAK's comment about it the mylar cutting into the comic (which i still can't visualize or understand) and if that is truly the case then i would have to do 2-mil mylar with BB's  can anyone else verify what ZZUTAK is saying about the mylar cutting into the covers?

 

...and just a quick note - does everyone agree that Mylites are "as-good" or "better" than BCW Archives (Silver Mylar)?   and their backer boards are better as well?

thanks!

john

Edited October 1, 2023 by FluorideInMyWater

[shadroch]

Mylites are not just as good as mylar. If they were, people would put $1,000 books in them. They are a great deal for the money, but they are 2mil vs. 4mil. If money is no object, go with the mylar. For the rest of us, mylite2s are a worthy alternative.

[Artboy99]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:03 PM, zzutak said:

If you use Mylar sleeves without backing boards, you will eventually crease or cut into a cover.  Guaranteed. 

Did this. Putting my Shock Suspenstories #6 F+ condition book back into the mylar and it caught the back cover and sliced it from bottom to about 3/4 of the back cover before I noticed.

I will never use those open top mylars ever again because of it. Have a comic partner that sometimes uses them, and I change every single one of them to a mylite2 when I find them in our boxes.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Artboy99

[shadroch]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:08 PM, Artboy99 said:

Did this. Putting my Shock Suspenstories #6 F+ condition book back into the mylar and it caught the back cover and sliced it from bottom to about 3/4 of the back cover before I noticed.

I will never use those open top mylars ever again because of it. Have a comic partner that sometimes uses them, and I change every single one of them to a mylite2 when I find them in our boxes.

Use two boards, sandwich the book and slide it in. When the book is in, you slide out the front board.  After a few hundred, it becomes second nature.

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 9/30/2023 at 5:57 PM, shadroch said:

Mylites are not just as good as mylar. If they were, people would put $1,000 books in them. They are a great deal for the money, but they are 2mil vs. 4mil. If money is no object, go with the mylar. For the rest of us, mylite2s are a worthy alternative.

i thought Mylites were mylar (?)......just looked them up on the webpage.  made of "mylar-d"  .  I don't know what type of mylar BCW uses...i emailed them to try to find out.  maybe it uses type "A".  i don't know,  but it is mylar nontheless

[shadroch]

Mylite2s are 2 mils thick and flexible. Mylars are the same material, but twice as thick and more rigid. The original mylites were 1mil and didn't catch on.  Mylight2s got popular about twenty years ago.

[Artboy99]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:42 PM, shadroch said:

Use two boards, sandwich the book and slide it in. When the book is in, you slide out the front board.  After a few hundred, it becomes second nature.

great advice, and thanks for the comment.

[grandmoph]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:19 AM, shadroch said:

Mylite2s are 2 mils thick and flexible. Mylars are the same material, but twice as thick and more rigid. The original mylites were 1mil and didn't catch on.  Mylight2s got popular about twenty years ago.

Mylites is just the branding for the mylar bags that are made by E. Gerber. They come in both 2 mil (Mylites2) and 4 mil (Mylites4) varieties. Both are made with Mylar D.

As mentioned, 2 mil mylar bags are sufficient for most people.

I have not tried the mylar bags made by BCW, but I tried the ones made by ComicProLine. The ComicProLine mylars work, but they are definitely a step down from the mylars made by E. Gerber. My ComicProLine mylars often have rough edges and don't have the same solid feel as the E. Gerbers.

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:49 AM, Artboy99 said:

great advice, and thanks for the comment.

i totally believe in comic safety precautions.  i've never personally damaged a comic.   i did 2800 in row in 4-mil bcm without issue...........in cycling we say there are 2 kinds of riders....those who have gone down and those who will go down. 

i believe that i starte by sliding a backer in about 1/2 way,  and then slipped the comic in against the slippery white side of the board.

so i talked to a dude at Gerber regarding their bags and boards.  he responded by saying they are the exact same mylar film.  it says on the site that they use type D, but he told me they stopped using this awhile ago.  they might be using type A, which is museum quality.  i'm waiting for his response.  he did say that the boards are made by a different vendor...but the bags are identical.  i think they sell a ton more than BCW which allows them to lower the price, which is why they are about 1/2 the cost. i'll post the mylar type when said dude returns my email.

 

 

 

 

[FluorideInMyWater]

So I talked to George Kues, president at Gerber.  Very interesting!

so, 1st off, DuPont discontinued mylar D about 20 years ago.  Mylar is not a chemical compound or material.. it is a brand-name for polyester-plastic.  they switched to KCS film

"We manufacture sleeves for many companies which resell with their brand names on them.  We use SKC film….. a government approved polyester film equivalent to DuPont D which was discontinued many years ago. We have been manufacturing sleeves since 1974. I have attached a spec sheet for SKC".  calling something Mylar is like calling it "food"  it does not describe anything in particular.  Mylar and Mylites are just the brand names used to market the Polyester plastic material (or film)  All the "mylar" is produced in Georgia and then they sell it to manufactured it to production companies to do with it what they want.  In this case it is making sleeves.  Gerber makes sleeves that are available to wholesalers who buy them and put their own name on them. (possibly BCW)  George would not tell me who his clients are, which i respect and respected.  but there is a "chance" that BCW buys from Gerber and puts their name on them.

backing boards.  the deepest of lies.  boards that claim to be acid free contain acid and the ones that claim to be made from 24 point solid bleached sulfate, coated and buffered on one side with 3% calcium carbonate..........are not!  it is straits out fraud. Gerber does not want to address what other companies are doing because he doesn't want to get involved in litigation or other stuff related.  Gerbers backers boards are actual "Archival" boards.  the are legit and have the following specs

• Genuine acid-free, cellular fiber.
• Meets strict U.S. Government standards for archival storage.
• 3% calcium carbonate buffer throughout, maintains a neutral pH.
• White on both sides.
• The highest quality backing board available anywhere

He is currently testing non acid free boards b/c of the potential volume he can sell by just making it plain, with no chemicals.  George maintains that the only benefit of a backer board is rigidity.  nothing else.  if you can get your comic in the mylite without damaging it then it's one less thing you have to maintain ever 5-10 years.  but his boards are the only legit ones on the market.

so get what ever you are comfortable.  if you are only comfortable with BCW bags and boards then get those.....but the mylar is exactly the same and the half-back boards and the only true Archive boards on the market

Attached is the SKC specification sheet regarding the material.  (page 1 of 5)

SKC Polyester Film GHS Format Safety Data Sheet:

Section 1 - IDENTIFICATION

Material Identification
SKC Polyester (Polyethylene Terephthalate) Film
Polyester film is sometimes referred to as ‘PET’ film.
Product Description
All Single or Multilayer Oriented Polyester Film Types (does not include PVdC coated film).
Product Use
Product uses include Packaging, Industrial, Imaging, Storage and Display applications, among others.
Supplier Details
Manufacturer / Distributor
SKC Inc. (Films Division)
1000 SKC Drive
Covington, Georgia, 30014, USA
Phone Numbers
Product Information: 678-342-1000 Fax: 678-342-

Enjoy!

[grandmoph]

Awesome info!

Thank you for taking the time to inquire about E. Gerber's products and then typing it up! It is the first time I have seen some of that info.

Though I do have to wonder why the E. Gerber website says all of their bags are made out of Mylar D if it was discontinued so long ago.

[FluorideInMyWater]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:59 AM, grandmoph said:

Awesome info!

Thank you for taking the time to inquire about E. Gerber's products and then typing it up! It is the first time I have seen some of that info.

Though I do have to wonder why the E. Gerber website says all of their bags are made out of Mylar D if it was discontinued so long ago.

jeeze.  my post was 3 times as long and technical.  for some reason it got cut....or  else has not been approved by a moderator....... ?

Edited October 6, 2023 by FluorideInMyWater