TEC 35 LARSON, CGC 9.2 ASKING $15K

[lou_fine]

There is a slight difference between the color touch on the Church More Fun #52 and the Adventure #40. On the More Fun, the color touch is along the spine while on the Adventure it is in the main part of the cover.

It was felt the color touch on the spine could easily be removed and not affect the over-all appeal of the book and was thus given the blue label, whereas this was not the case with the Adventure #40 (at least according to my conversation with Haspel).

 

That being said, it is the best copy of Adventure #40 known and worth every penny of the sales price.

 

Very interesting, Sean! I just spoke with Steve Borock and he confirms this. He says the CT on the Adventure 40 is in the cape and has a little bleed-through, unlike the CT on the More Fun #52. I am glad you brought this up because after reading the notes on the label, I incorrectly thought that the CT was on the spine.

 

Still, the Adv. 40 was a killer book before the CT and I don't think it should sell for less than it would if it had a grease pencil initial on the cover -- which is to say a lot more than $63K.

 

FFB;

 

Restoration aside, I would certainly agree with your original viewpoint that the colour of the label had a overriding detrimental impact on the eventual selling price of the Adventure #40. Especially when you factor in the fact that the More Fun #52 was still able to generate a healthy mutiple to guide at the time even though restoration was clearly noted on the blue label.

 

It'll be interesting to see how both of these books will do in the future whenever the new slabbing and resto rating system comes in from CGC. Or maybe nothing will change since I believe that CGC will still consider GA books with minor amounts of resto such as More Fun #52, to be totally resto free.

 

If this turns out to be the case, it simply doesn't make any sense to me since it obviously does have some resto on it. A book like this should come in with a minimum rating of R1 at the least, with the Adventure #40 coming in at a higher rating such as R3 for example.

[batman_fan]

Personally, I am like almost everyone else. I prefer unrestored books, but I have several in my collection (including my Batman 1). For me, a restored book is not the kiss of death and may be the only way for me to own a key book (like Detective 35). What I am willing to pay really depends on the restoration. CT is not a real big issue if it is done right and cover cleaning and tear/split repair is okay as well. What I don't like is trimming and pieces added. Once you hit that point, what I will pay drops significantly. For me, on a book with slight restoration, I would probably be willing to go as high as 60% to 80% guide for certain issues if the restored condition were pretty high.

[LearnedHand]

I just took a very good look at the Larson Detective Comics #35 and have a question about it:

 

It's no secret that doing a wet cleaning (napthalene bath) can (and often does) shrink a book's cover (it's thicker and needs to be immersed longer than the pages) if not properly flattened and pressed out. It looks like a sliver of the first wrap can be seen protruding along the top few inches of the books right edge (front and back). If I am interpreting what I'm looking at correctly, I think I see (left to right) the cover's trimmed edge's paper stock thickness (the first yellowish band), then a sliver of the first page itself (the white sliver - pages are supposed to be white) and then the crowning of the rest of the interior (second yellowish band).

 

I'm curious for other opinions, as, in my opinion if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, only a fool would grade a book with a shrunken cover that does not cover the first wrap as a NM- (looks more like a VF/NM to me anyway).

[FFB]

I just took a very good look at the Larson Detective Comics #35 and have a question about it:

 

It's no secret that doing a wet cleaning (napthalene bath) can (and often does) shrink a book's cover (it's thicker and needs to be immersed longer than the pages) if not properly flattened and pressed out. It looks like a sliver of the first wrap can be seen protruding along the top few inches of the books right edge (front and back). If I am interpreting what I'm looking at correctly, I think I see (left to right) the cover's trimmed edge's paper stock thickness (the first yellowish band), then a sliver of the first page itself (the white sliver - pages are supposed to be white) and then the crowning of the rest of the interior (second yellowish band).

 

I'm curious for other opinions, as, in my opinion if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, only a fool would grade a book with a shrunken cover that does not cover the first wrap as a NM- (looks more like a VF/NM to me anyway).

 

I think it is an aqueous wash (water based, not solvent based) that potentially shrinks a cover, but your point is still a valid one.

[LearnedHand]

It could be both (I didn't know an aqueous solution could do it too - thanks). I just got off the phone with an expert in the field and he said napthalene will definitely do this if the cover is not properly pressed out. If you get a chance to look at the book, let me know what you think.

[Arty]

Naptha (VMP naptha/highly refined)) doesn't have any effect on paper dimensions. There is no need for pressing either since it doesn't ripple paper like water does.

[FFB]

Naptha (VMP naptha/highly refined)) doesn't have any effect on paper dimensions. There is no need for pressing either since it doesn't ripple paper like water does.

 

That was my understanding also.

[Thegoldenage]

Naptha doesn't have any effect on the paper, and if done correctly is undetectable. A water cleaning is another story entirely.

[LearnedHand]

So much for the expert opinion!

 

Has anyone had the chance to go to Heritage and verify if what I'm seeing is not a hallucination?

 

Hey, I seem to remember someone (FFB?) posting that naptha completely evaporates, leaving the book in its natural state (same as before the naptha was applied). If so, then how the can anyone determine the book was cleaned? Is it circumstantial, due to the staple placement, or due to what I've seen on some cleaned books (colors slightly run outside their lined borders or slightly faded colors)?

 

Funny thing is - I know where there are 5 unrestored copies of Detective Comics #35 (in grades between F and VF/NM or a little nicer). And I also know 5 people who laugh at me when I ask them if they want to sell their copy to me (I only need one).

[FFB]

Hey, I seem to remember someone (FFB?) posting that naptha completely evaporates, leaving the book in its natural state (same as before the naptha was applied). If so, then how the can anyone determine the book was cleaned? Is it circumstantial, due to the staple placement, or due to what I've seen on some cleaned books (colors slightly run outside their lined borders or slightly faded colors)?

 

That's right. Naphtha dissipates completely when dried.

 

If a solvent cleaning is done very skillfully (especially with respect to replacement of staples), there is no way to tell unless you had the book in front of you beforehand. The usual way to tell that a book has been cleaned is you see some evidence of staple manipulation along with an extremely un-oily, bright cover and the interior cover inks (the black stuff) can get a little "grainy" looking for lack of a better word. (I believe the interior inks are of a different composition than the exterior color cover inks and are slightly soluble in Naphtha. But don't quote me, it's just a theory.) You might also see smudging from where interior cover inks on the inside cover have "moved" during careless handling of the book while the book was wet with solvent. As one recent example, I saw a cleaned and pressed Showcase #4 at Metro's booth in San Diego this year that had a thumb smudge smack dab in the middle of either the front or back interior cover (can't remember which at this point), but no fingerprint oil associated with the smudge.

 

Once the Naphtha dries completely, it is all gone. The book smells exactly the same as it did before you started.

 

Keep in mind that a solvent cleaning will have limited effects unless there is a soluble stain to be removed. Naphtha or any other solvent doesn't remove stains unless the substance causing the stain is soluble in that particular solvent -- oily stains, gummy residue stains (like from old scotch tape), and certain ink stains. Most stains (say, barbecue sauce on your Detective #27 from when those Kansas City-style barbecue ribs were just too irresistible) require an aqueous cleaning or even a bleaching to remove, if they are removeable at all. General dirt and grime needs to be removed mechanically (dry cleaning with an eraser) before performing a wet cleaning because an aqueous cleaning will just set the stain and make it permanent.

 

As for changes in paper dimension, if we're right about Naphtha not affecting paper dimensions, it's possible that your expert was talking about wet cleaning in general resulting in a change in dimension. Most restoration professionals will do all three kinds of cleaning -- dry clean the book, then do a solvent cleaning and then an aqueous cleaning to make sure all removable stains are taken care of.

 

As for other telltale signs of wet cleaning like faded colors, there are several things that can result in faded colors. It could be faded by exposure to UV, it could be faded by an improper solvent cleaning where the inks are soluble in the chosen solvent, or it could be faded by oxidation (whether through exposure to a bleaching agent or air exposure). I don't think you can always pin it to solvent cleaning unless you've used a solvent that causes the inks to run, in which case the mess from the running inks is going to be a lot more obvious than mere color fading.

[FFB]

By the way, I knew I remembered talking to Susan Cicconi-Killiany about the effect that aqueous cleaning has on paper dimensions before. It's in the old "do restoration professionals trim books" thread from 2004. Link is here.

[nochips]

It sold 3 years ago for just shy of 9K. I've heard several people suggest that that price was a bargain, and that this book is spectacular. 15K might be a little optimistic, but not ridiculous.

 

The top 3 copies are all PLODS. The highest grade blue label is 8.5.

 

I saw the book ten years ago, before CGC. It was very nice. I thought it had minor restoration back then. I would swear it did. I was friendly with the old owner, Harley got the book for him. It had some work done, but it was primo work, we thought it was cleaned and pressed for sure at that time. The cover seemed to bright for a Larson, too white on the inside etc...

 

Turns out we were right, cleaned and most likely pressed.

[nochips]

So Hughes wants full NM- Guide for a PLOD copy? Funny, PLOD copies usually go for fractions of their unrestored stablemates, but maybe Bill is unaware of this. In fairness, that's actually cheap for a typical Hughes asking price.

 

I had considered buying this (Larson) copy when it came up for sale (in the auction at which it sold for about $8,900). My reservation was that it is a permanently PLOD book, as the cleaning cannot be reversed. And it would be a placeholder until I could locate an unrestored copy. So I'd have a lot of $$$ tied up in a placeholder. And as restored books have the Scarlet Letter on them (except it's a purple label, not a red "A"), the future value of these books is quite tenuous - further making the decision to put this much money into a placeholder a bad decision for me.

 

The difficluty, is that it looks like such a sweet copy.

 

Best of luck to the winner. I cannot predict the future, so purchasing this book may, ulitmately, prove to be a wise decision.

 

LH

 

This is where the restoartion issue is a moot point. If that book was unrestored, or not cleaned and 9.2 it would go for a multiple of guide. Where are you going to find a nice High grade tec 35? The book does not exist. a repaired copy may be the only affordable higher grade, nice to look at copy.

 

Restoration is not a bad thing. Fixing up a book to add to it's life is not a really bad thing. It is what it is. Ten years from now there will be less golden age age, non repaired books available. The prices keep climbing as they get older and older.

[LearnedHand]

This is where the restoartion issue is a moot point. If that book was unrestored, or not cleaned and 9.2 it would go for a multiple of guide. Where are you going to find a nice High grade tec 35? The book does not exist. a repaired copy may be the only affordable higher grade, nice to look at copy.

 

Aren't you contradicting yourself? If restoration were moot, then what's the justification for the book selling 3 years ago for under $9,000 instead of about 1.5X then-current high Guide?

 

They don't exist in high grade? Kind of a strong all-knowing statement, considering you don't know the answer to that. All you actually know is that either (a) you've never seen a nice copy, or (b) you've never seen a nice copy for sale.

 

As I mentioned, I happen to know where 5 copies live, with at least 2 being true VFs, and I'm not even that involved in tracking these things down. A lot of people seem to forget that people have been collecting for years. Everyone was chasing Actions, Detectives, Supermans and More Funs in the 1970s. Know why? They were cheap! Because many books sit in private collections today, people seem to think that they don't exist - simply because those collectors haven't had them slabbed and have not attempted to sell them yet.

 

Restoration is not a bad thing. Fixing up a book to add to it's life is not a really bad thing. It is what it is. Ten years from now there will be less golden age age, non repaired books available. The prices keep climbing as they get older and older.

 

Restoration is not a bad thing - I agree. The thing is, we're not discussing if it's good or bad. We're discussing if a PLOD book deserves to achieve a similar price as its unrestored counterpart. And if your answer to that is "yes," then all I can say is that you're entitled to your opinion - I happen to not share it.

[Durden08]

The reserve has been posted at Heritage, and it's $13,800 (reserve not met). Although, the book is listed as "sold" on the Bill Hughes site

[batman_fan]

I am not sure if it will hit the reserve. Real nice looking book, but a lot for a restored copy and everyone knows what he paid for it so they may not want to give out that much profit.