Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[bc]

On 9/16/2024 at 9:19 PM, KCOComics said:

That's kind of crazy. 

 

I've always been under the impression that the Senate trials and comic code hurt the publishers pretty badly. I thought by 57 when Atlas imploded, Sales were on a downward trajectory, only to be saved 4 years later by the Fantastic Four and the super heros to follow. 

But it's petty incredible that it took until 63 or 64 for sales to even get back to the mid 50s levels. 

 

Out of curiosity, in 1957 how many titles were they selling?  And by 1961, they only had 8? 

Here's 1957:

Up until the Implosion, they were supporting 17 horror/sci-fi/fantasy titles a month along with a healthy dose of westerns/comedy/misc. titles

-bc

[bc]

Here's the sci-fi/fantasy/superhero timeline by month until 1961

-bc

Edited Tuesday at 01:29 AM by bc
typo #47,657

[KCOComics]

On 9/16/2024 at 9:27 PM, bc said:

Here's 1957:

Up until the Implosion, they were supporting 17 horror/sci-fi/fantasy titles a month along with a healthy dose of westerns/comedy/misc. titles

-bc

I love this!! 

I will say - the thing I enjoy collecting the most is 50s Atlas....Sci-Fi, Horror, even some Westerns.  I have a hole box of them and can't get enough of flipping through those covers! 

[bc]

On 9/16/2024 at 9:30 PM, KCOComics said:

I love this!! 

I will say - the thing I enjoy collecting the most is 50s Atlas....Sci-Fi, Horror, even some Westerns.  I have a hole box of them and can't get enough of flipping through those covers! 

During the Covid lockdowns, I went crazy deep into the Post Code Atlas-Implosion-Rise of Marvel Comics transition down to the Job Codes 

-bc

[bc]

Just to add more to the discussion...from the same time-frame....

 

Follow Up - Part 1

So I been doing some data mining on the Atlas Tales database.....

https://www.atlastales.com/search/n:7:c:w:s:s:b:1:e:1958:x:7:y:1963:z:s

That search shows all of Stan Lee's SIGNED credits from January 1958 until July 1963. Pretty much the post-Implosion Atlas to the rise of Marvel Comics.

In that time period, Stan signed 1,673 "jobs".

These "jobs" include everything from 1-9 page stories, including content pages (think the first page of Amazing Adult Fantasy), paper doll cutouts, activity pages, pin-ups, fashion pages and coloring pages. The guy signed everything he touched.

Yes, this splash page from Amazing Adult Fantasy 11 counts as 1 job.

The total number of jobs signed by Stan in the PHM titles is only 97.

That's only 6% of his total jobs signed during the entire period of January 1958 to July 1963.

As mentioned in the prior post, Stan's first signed job in the PHM era was TTA 24 with a cover date of October 1961 (the end of the big monster period).

But other than Amazing Adult Fantasy, Stan only did a single 5 page story for most of the later issues.

Here's the breakdown of Stan's signed jobs by PHM Title:

 

More to come....need a beer and want to save this.

-bc

[bc]

 

Follow Up - Part 2

Grand Comics Database vs Atlas Tales Database vs CGC

The GCD credits Stan with writing/plotting hundreds of the PHM stories BUT they notate he did not sign them with the "?" notation:

That story is from Strange Tales 72 (12/59).

There is no listing in the Atlas Tales database for the writers of any of the stories in that issue.

Roll back one issue to Strange Tales 71.

The GCD has 2 stories that they guess to be Stan's:

and

 

Again, the Atlas Tales database does not attribute any writer to any of the stories in that issue. That's a totally different rabbit hole we can go down later....

There are hundreds of other examples I can provide where the GCD "assumes" Stan was involved in the writing/plotting/scripting that he did not sign.

 

Now let's add in the CGC factor....

I have a slabbed copy of ST 71 for reference...notice they point out "Stan Lee story" (that's clearly using the GCD assumption):

 

It appears all the grading/slabbing companies are just crediting Stan with unverified jobs in their label & grader notes based on the GCD data.

-bc

[bc]

Follow Up - Part 3

Some more raw data for consideration...

On average, the typical PHM book consisted of 6 jobs.

There were about 160 PHM titles that did not consist of reprints during the period Jan '58 to July '63.

That's a total of about 960 jobs for PHM titles during the period Jan '58 to July '63.

Stan signed 97 of them; about 10%.

And half of those (49 of 97) was an 8 issue series (Amazing Adult Fantasy) that included 8 content pages (shown in Part 1) as well as a 1 page "coming attractions" job in AAF 10.

Follow Up - Part 4

Raw Data

Can't seem to get the spreadsheet to paste in here correctly, so here's the screenshots of what Atlas Tales shows for Stan signed PHM work:

Follow Up - Part 5

Thanks to a couple of pints and many searches in the Registry, ebay & HA.com, I reviewed the entire CGC graded PHM catalog of books (trying to focus on the most recent 2 slab versions for data consistency). The label notes are very different from the original slab version, the older gen slabs had much less information in the label notes.

Goal was to analyze how many issues Stan signed and was given credit on the CGC label compared to number of issues that CGC attributes to Stan that he did not sign.

Data set: There are total of 164 books in the PHM catalog which matches the current CGC Registry criteria which our little club sort of helped define.

Based on Stan's signed job count (from Part 4), he contributed to 56 different PHM issues. About 34% of the 164 PHM issues.

CGC credits Stan on 87 PHM issues. About 53% of the 164 PHM issues.

That's a 31 issue difference. About 19% more.

 

The interesting part is that CGC does NOT credit Stan on the label notes when he actually signed the job on four books (JIM79, ST97, ST98, TOS24).

 

Here's a breakdown by title:

 

I'm not going to even try and post the 164 rows of raw data. Message me if you want it.

-bc

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:45 AM by bc

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:33 AM, Bookery said:

I started my business 40 years ago.  To be fair... I'm pretty sure every comic collector I knew accepted that a lot of it was just hype even then.  

As someone who has been cussing and discussing this topic since the days of Compuserve, I can assure you, the Lee leaning crowd has given quite a bit a ground since those days as new information has come to light. What was once, "I think Stan and Jack discussed every story ahead of time" has become "Yeah, but Stan's dialogue is great!" and "No, DC limited Marvel to 8 titles a month throughout the 60's" has become "Well we think it started out that way, but they eased the restictions as they sold more."

Quite a bit of ground. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:43 AM, bc said:

From your post:

"So…. DID DC comics impose an 8 book a month maximum on Goodman as Lee claimed (followed by others who simply repeated his statement) or… did GOODMAN put a restriction on Lee for the number of titles based on budget/staff?"

What if both are true?

ANC shut its operation on May 17, 1957 - prior to that, Goodman halted all new work on Atlas titles around April 27, 1957 (about the same time Dell pulled out of ANC). Think the last Atlas logo had a cover date of Aug 1957. Atlas was putting out dozens of titles a month so there was likely a backlog of completed stories ready to be published to feed the post Implosion titles until artists were brought back.

The contract with IND was signed (likely in late May of '57). The first book with the IND logo on the cover was November 1957 (which means it had to be at the publishers in the June-July 1957 timeframe).

IND knew Goodman was in deep trouble financially and as a direct competitor, likely didn't want to lose a dime on the contract. Goodman knew he was limited financially but had a small pile of ready to go material from the prior staff. During contract negotiations, both parties likely had restrictions that would have placed limits until proper credit rating was built over time. If it was me, I'd make Goodman pay a hefty % up front and then monitor his monthly payment history over time. If Goodman succeeds to rebuild Atlas, IND/DC gets a sliver. If Goodman fails, IND could cut them off fast.

Like yourself, I have searched extensively for any of the original contracts, but have nothing. If it's like common business contracts its good for X number of years. Original contract signed in May '57.

So Goodman/Lee survive a year or two and make timely payments to IND. Now it's time to renew the contract, Goodman asks to increase his service levels with IND, IND considers this a profitable risk to take and the amount of titles/work increases. Same thing happens a few years later until Marvel Comics changes ownership in 1968 (as does DC) and publisher (Curtis Circulations in 1969).

A business contract signed in 1957 is very likely to be amended every few years until they cancel it in 1968. Highly unlikely that any of the original terms maintained thru the final version.

-bc

It's possible. That was never how it was presented by Lee or Thomas or Marvel Comics though. I applaud your thinking on this here - it sounds very plausible. I still think that, how Lee, under pressure from live questioning, responded to the question of 'why not more books', is probably still the most truthful reason. But you never know. I can't deny what you've laid out here is very possible. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/15/2024 at 3:04 PM, VintageComics said:

One of Marvel's hallmarks, if not their greatest Hallmark that made them so successful was how touching Marvel's stories were to common people.

The reason early Marvel was so successful was that their stories were humanly relatable. They took relatable human weaknesses (blindness, meekness, lameness, nerdiness, physical unattractiveness) and turned those qualities into strengths. 

Incidentally, and also slightly off topic, it's also why Captain Marvel outsold Superman in the GA.

Meanwhile, during the SA while Marvel was putting out this material with depth, DC was putting out mindless action, schlock and rainbow monsters that were so inferior I couldn't stand them. Not to mention how inferior the art was. DC was still doing stories in the style of Atlas pre-hero stuff (ony with superheroes) and hadn't caught onto Marvel's winning formula until later in the SA. 

These movements within Marvel stories were about human rights, respect, equality, goodness. It was an incredible strategic move of pure genius. These qualities were long term goals that drove all the stories, not just an afterthought and they were the fundamental difference between Marvel and everyone else at the time.

All the Kirby and Ditko art in the world couldn't manipulate people into loving the brand without that emotional factor of the underdog fighting for good.

So, who corralled together the world class talent AND cultivated that activist culture within the company, and drove those principles throughout Marvel's story telling?

Who motivated and drove the bullpen?

Who created that culture that was the brand that Marvel became?

I'd genuinely like an answer to these questions. 

Or were they answered and I missed them?

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

It does seem, from your own comments here, that a slightly more appropriate title might have been "Marvel Lied..." (though I understand it not being a good idea to go up against Disney's lawyers on that one). 

Stan Lee wrote the book, not Marvel Comics. And Marvel Comics owns the rights to anything Stanley did for them, so MY book still has a target on it, if Disney should so foolishly try and put something actionable in place. I could only hope to get that kind of promotion. 

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

By your own statements you say that both Lee and Goodman lied, and that in instances it's unclear who lied to whom.  Stan Lee isn't promoting the 50th Anniversary of "Origins"... Disney-Marvel is, even though by now they know most of the facts and are choosing to ignore them.  Stan Lee had no say in the making of the Marvel movies... it was up to Marvel to decide how to promote them,

You're speculating, as you 'have never read the book'.

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

and how much to emphasize the creative input of Kirby and Ditko (not to mention, since you haven't, John Severin, Don Heck, "R"ick Ayers, John Buscema, Marie Severin, Gene Colan, John Romita, John Buscema, Bill Everett, Wally Wood, Joe Sinnott, Jim Steranko, etc., etc.).

All are liberally quoted in the book that you haven't read. Some very revealing an eye opening quotes. 

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

Certainly Lee lied about his involvement as a writer... it simply isn't humanly possible for one man to have penned all of those stories with his name on them while undertaking the job as editor and promoter as well.  Yet, surely the writers and artists complained to higher-ups about it. 

At this point, it's not worth it.

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

Lee didn't run Marvel. 

LOL.

On 9/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Bookery said:

He was an employee, just like the others.  So obviously, the executives didn't care, or actively pushed the concept of a singe creative face to the Marvel brand.  (Now... what Lee did in his retirement is all on him.  But I've never talked about that.)  My interest is always seeing history in its own context... an art that is sadly all but missing in today's education approach.  Lee lied, the company lied, and they all treated their creators like hired help (which they were).  Every company at the time did the same thing, and most didn't even give any of their talent any credit at all.   much less give them box credits, though certainly incomplete, and hype them in letters columns, etc.  Marvel was at least ahead of its time in that regard, however imperfectly. 

Ok. Whatever.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:20 AM, Bookery said:

Yes, but now the movie-makers know the truth.  I'm pretty sure they aren't building a multi-billion dollar franchise around what they were told in "Origins".  If they choose to ignore the truth, that's on Disney now.  And unless I'm wrong, Stan Lee wasn't paid anything by the movies other than for his cameo appearances, was he?  (If I am wrong, then someone please correct me, but I thought that was the case).  

You're wrong. He SUED Marvel because he felt they weren't paying him as much as they were supposed to as a percentage of the profits. On top of his $1 Million a year contract. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:51 AM by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 7:24 AM, bc said:

Something I posted back in 2021....

US Postal Data for Individual Titles

https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales/postaldata/1960.html

1960 was the first year that the U.S. Postal Service required that publishers actually include circulation information in the Statements of Ownership that appeared in their comic books. At this point, only the print run and paid circulations were reported by all; some also included subscription sales.

Uncle Scrooge and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories both topped 1 million copies, and it was the last time to date that any Statement of Ownership for any title (apart from Mad, a magazine) would top that figure. Star Wars #1 in 1977 would be the next comic book to exceed 1 million copies, although that was across multiple printings. While several issues in the early 1990s would have sales exceeding 1 million copies, none of the year-long averages for those series topped that figure.

Note that DC rounded all figures to the nearest thousand, whereas other publishers went into greater detail. Such variation among publishers was common.

Data from 1960 - Let's see where a Marvel title shows up:

 

(not yet, keep going...)

 

(almost there, keep scrollin')

First Marvel title in the Top 50 list for 1960 is TTA at #43 selling an average of 163,156 books per issue, followed by TOS at #45. Both of these titles were published bi-monthly until late in 1960.

Notice that the legacy titles Strange Tales and Journey into Mystery don't crack the top 50, TTA & TOS are the "new" guys on the block. JIM & ST don't hit the Top 50 until 1962!

 

To keep the length of this post reasonable, I summarized the other top 50 charts for the PHM titles:

 

Even though there is no data for ST & JIM in '60 & '61, the charts for TTA & TOS likely are indicative of their performance as well.

As usual, I'll show my raw data:

-bc

John's lists aren't complete yet, which is no slight to him - the work he's done is AMAZING. That guy is my statistical comic book HERO. I learned so much from him about this stuff over the years, and he's always been great about answering my questions... Here is Marvel's complete (I think) Statement of Publication list for 1960:

The Statement of Publication numbers run in (mostly) January of 1961's (newsstand dated) books 

Strange Tales #83        169,601 

Journey/Mystery #66    167,125 

Tales to Astonish #18    163,156 

Millie the Model #102     154,972 

Tales of Suspense #16  148,929 

Kid Colt Outlaw #98      144,746 

Patsy Walker #94           143,474

Love Romances #92       133, 227

 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 7:42 AM, bc said:

Another post from that same time frame:

Marvel vs DC Sales Data from 1950 to 1987

https://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/comic_sales.html

Some Notes on the Marvel (Atlas) numbers:

• Atlas Implosion was early 1957
• Mid 1957 - Signed a deal with Independent News
• Nov 1961 - FF1 comes out
• Mid 1962 - IH1, AF15 arrive
• 1963 - More heroes appear
• It took a decade to get back to pre-Implosion sales levels (1956 to 1966) 

Looking at the raw data from this graph, Marvel Total Copies Sold for the years 1957 thru 1963 are:

The drop from '57 to '58 is due to the Atlas Implosion.

'58 and '59 are basically flat years. We see a slight bump in 1960 and a bigger increase in 1961 with continued acceleration from there when the superheroes take over.

-bc

I'm not sure where they derived that information from. Marvel sold more books in 1960-63 than that. 

Edited Tuesday at 03:52 AM by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:19 AM, KCOComics said:

That's kind of crazy. 

 

I've always been under the impression that the Senate trials and comic code hurt the publishers pretty badly. I thought by 57 when Atlas imploded, Sales were on a downward trajectory, only to be saved 4 years later by the Fantastic Four and the super heros to follow. 

But it's petty incredible that it took until 63 or 64 for sales to even get back to the mid 50s levels. 

 

Out of curiosity, in 1957 how many titles were they selling?  And by 1961, they only had 8? 

40+ at times, pre-Implosion. 

8 a month for almost 2 years, and then by 1961 about 12 a month. 

 

This is why people are still writing about this era because there's been so much INCORRECT information that's been passed throughout the years. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:40 AM, bc said:

Just to add more to the discussion...from the same time-frame....

 

Follow Up - Part 1

So I been doing some data mining on the Atlas Tales database.....

https://www.atlastales.com/search/n:7:c:w:s:s:b:1:e:1958:x:7:y:1963:z:s

That search shows all of Stan Lee's SIGNED credits from January 1958 until July 1963. Pretty much the post-Implosion Atlas to the rise of Marvel Comics.

In that time period, Stan signed 1,673 "jobs".

These "jobs" include everything from 1-9 page stories, including content pages (think the first page of Amazing Adult Fantasy), paper doll cutouts, activity pages, pin-ups, fashion pages and coloring pages. The guy signed everything he touched.

Yes, this splash page from Amazing Adult Fantasy 11 counts as 1 job.

The total number of jobs signed by Stan in the PHM titles is only 97.

That's only 6% of his total jobs signed during the entire period of January 1958 to July 1963.

As mentioned in the prior post, Stan's first signed job in the PHM era was TTA 24 with a cover date of October 1961 (the end of the big monster period).

But other than Amazing Adult Fantasy, Stan only did a single 5 page story for most of the later issues.

Here's the breakdown of Stan's signed jobs by PHM Title:

 

More to come....need a beer and want to save this.

-bc

and ZERO Kirby stories.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:41 AM, bc said:

 

Follow Up - Part 2

Grand Comics Database vs Atlas Tales Database vs CGC

The GCD credits Stan with writing/plotting hundreds of the PHM stories BUT they notate he did not sign them with the "?" notation:

 

That story is from Strange Tales 72 (12/59).

There is no listing in the Atlas Tales database for the writers of any of the stories in that issue.

Roll back one issue to Strange Tales 71.

The GCD has 2 stories that they guess to be Stan's:

 

and

 

 

Again, the Atlas Tales database does not attribute any writer to any of the stories in that issue. That's a totally different rabbit hole we can go down later....

There are hundreds of other examples I can provide where the GCD "assumes" Stan was involved in the writing/plotting/scripting that he did not sign.

 

Now let's add in the CGC factor....

I have a slabbed copy of ST 71 for reference...notice they point out "Stan Lee story" (that's clearly using the GCD assumption):

 

 

It appears all the grading/slabbing companies are just crediting Stan with unverified jobs in their label & grader notes based on the GCD data.

-bc

I appreciate GCD because its an outstanding source of information, but they most definately drank the Kool-Aid on the Lee and Lieber nonsense. That ? should not be a thing. Totally misleading on hundreds of entries. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 10:10 AM, VintageComics said:

I'd genuinely like an answer to these questions. 

Or were they answered and I missed them?

The 'bullpen'. LOL.

[Prince Namor]

Here's 1961, the following year, with complete Marvel Satement of Publication Numbers (that were printed).

 

Strange Tales #96                  191,261 average -   2,103,871 total copies sold — 11 issues (up 21,660)

Tales to Astonish #31            184,895 average -   2,033,845 total copies sold — 11 issues (up 21,739)

Millie the Model #108            184,733 average -   1,293,131 total copies sold — 7 issues (up 29,761)    

Tales of Suspense #29          184,635 average -   1,846,350 total copies sold — 10 issues (up 35,706)

Journey Into Mystery #79     182,090 average -    2,002,990 total copies sold — 11 issues (up 14,965)

Kid Colt Outlaw #104              152,877 average -      917,262 total copies sold — 6 issues (up 8,131)

Rawhide Kid #28                      150,162 average -      750,810 total copies sold — 5 issues 

 

Kirby's books become the first Marvel Comics to go monthly since the Implosion and Goodman even gives him a FIFTH title in Amazing Adventures which prints 6 issues in 1961. If that book even sells 150,000  copies average a month - that would mean that Kirby's 5 monster books would account for sales of 8,887,056 books - a whopping 47.5% of Marvel claimed 18,700,000 books sold for 1961.

And that doesn't even count his Fantastic Four's first 3 issues. If that book did 200,000 average copies to start - which at the time would be a monster hit for Marvel - that's a total of 9,487,056. That leaves 9,212,944 for the rest....

 

Amazing Adult Fantasy #7-10 - 4

Kathy #10-15 - 6

Life with Millie #10-15 - 6

My Girl Pearl #11??? Cancelled - 1

Patsy & Hedy #75-80 - 6

Patsy Walker #94-99 - 6   

Two Gun Kid #59 - 1

Gunsmoke Western #64-68 - 5

Teen-Age Romances #81-85  - 5

Love Romances #93-97    - 5

Linda Carter, Student Nurse #1-4 - 4

 

If we subtract Millie, Kid Colt and Rawhide Kid from those numbers (9,212,944 - 2,961,203), that would leave 6,251,741

It would mean those remaing 49 books averaged... 127,586 average copies per month. Ouch.

Edited Tuesday at 04:12 AM by Prince Namor

[ttfitz]

On 9/16/2024 at 3:23 PM, jimjum12 said:

Just exactly what IS a $20 Canadian?