Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[jimjum12]

On 10/19/2024 at 1:03 PM, Prince Namor said:

I could find no record of that. In fact, I showed otherwise. 

Correct, on typewriter paper affixed to the back of the art,

Dialog suggestions, I believe he called it. My favorite Ditko, ASM 26-27, was in his isolation period. To me, 26-27 was a high point easily surpassing 31-33. On the other hand, other than "decent" art and dialog, ASM 34-38 were probably the most underwhelming of the first 100. There really is no absolute with art. We know what we like. Still hoping to read the book. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Edited Saturday at 05:28 PM by jimjum12

[comicwiz]

On 10/19/2024 at 1:10 PM, Prince Namor said:

That's ALL human beings. 

LOL. If you think it's comparable, you are entitled to that.

But you can't force that opinion on me.

Body of evidence?

You have an interview and a one deposition where he says "Victor Fox" (not the only time he'd say that either) and you think that compares to the MOUNTAIN of evidence against Stan Lee as a LIAR????

 

The spoon-feeding going on here is incredible. You've done very impressive research with your book, and all that's happening is you're slowly having to surrender it, in a manner I don't think most would tolerate - partly because it's crass of anyone to demand or expect it, since it is available for purchase, and also for the time expenditure and tolerance you've shown - it really is commendable. Especially given the lack of capacity for some who clearly show an unwillingness to research things easily referenced online themselves, or having to actually relay to so-called "research" experts about Kirby's parody of Flashman and Houseroy - characters most with even a few years of collecting under their belt know about. 

Hat tip to you, fine sir!

Edited Saturday at 05:21 PM by comicwiz

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

If Stan is a part of the editorial process as Julius was, and they changes someone's idea, that's not stealing. It's editors doing their job.

It's just that Julius and Stan chose how much credit they took for their contributions. 

As Zonker and I agreed yesterday, Stan was a conduit. 

LOL.

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

Everything went through the editor, or Stan in this case.

They ALL went through editors. It STILL all goes through editors. 

THEY don't take credit and pay for the ideas.

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

Julius' business structure wasn't the Marvel method. Stan's business structure was the Marvel method.

The Marvel Method is just a fancy name for "I'm stealing the credit AND pay."

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

It's UNREASONABLE to accept that Stan had no input before they went to print. 

Didn't say that. Stop making things up.

 

But is it REASONABLE for him to get paid for NOT writing ASM #25-38 and ST #133-146?

Because he DID get paid. And he didn't write them.

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

It's REASONABLE to accept that Stan massaged ideas before they went to print and took credit for those ideas. 

So if Stan massaged ideas before they went to print, Stan's input was a part of the character. 

And people are arguing that it's this input that made Marvel the success they were. 

And they are also arguing that it's this input that was involved in co-creation - obviously to varying degrees. 

Then why doesn't everyone else do it?

On 10/20/2024 at 12:14 AM, VintageComics said:

But you'd have to accept that Stan changed NOTHING to remove him from the creation of the Marvel universe, and him being the conduit makes it near impossible to reasonably prove that. 

Never said that.

Stop making things up.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:17 AM, comicwiz said:

The spoon-feeding going on here is incredible. You've done very impressive research with your book, and all that's happening is you're slowly having to surrender it, in a manner I don't think most would tolerate, so your tolerance really is commendable. Especially given the lack of capacity for some who clearly show an unwillingness to research things easily referenced online themselves, or having to actually relay to so-called "research" experts about Kirby's parody of Flashman and Houseroy - characters most with even a few years of collecting under their belt know about. 

Hat tip to you, fine sir!

Thank you.

It's all MY fault though, lol. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:03 AM, Prince Namor said:

There are examples of him copying it. But according to some, Lee didn't want actual dialogue written in the margins.

I

If by “according to some” you mean “according to Ditko” we agree:
 

“…I gave Stan typewriting paper showing my rough ideas of what was being said in the story broken down into panels. Stan never wanted me to write any actual dialogue or names. That goes back to our 5 -page days. Writing, editing, dialogue, sound effects, captions, were all Stan’s division of labor at Marvel.”

— Steve Ditko, #45: Why I Quit S-M, Marvel, The Four-Page Series 9, September 2015

[Prince Namor]

If the Marvel Method was such a great way to create comics... why'd it not gain popularity and continue on?

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

If by “according to some” you mean “according to Ditko” we agree:
 

“…I gave Stan typewriting paper showing my rough ideas of what was being said in the story broken down into panels. Stan never wanted me to write any actual dialogue or names. That goes back to our 5 -page days. Writing, editing, dialogue, sound effects, captions, were all Stan’s division of labor at Marvel.”

— Steve Ditko, #45: Why I Quit S-M, Marvel, The Four-Page Series 9, September 2015

Can you show it in context please.

[Prince Namor]

And what about the meetings? Ditko 'wanted' the meetings?

   On 10/19/2024 at 3:32 AM,  sfcityduck said:

Ditko stated the meetings were longer. And what ultimately made Ditko leave Marvel is he said that Stan would no longer meet with him. Ditko wanted the meetings.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:03 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

I think he was speaking more of his 'to the fans' voice and 'to the media' voice...

Ditko said 'the fans loved Lee's dialogue'? Where'd he say that?

“Stan’s dialogue style of hero/villain wisecracking, undercut the conflict of hero, villain – but it worked with readers who just wanted to be entertained. I believe Stan loved writing those corny captions. It added to reading appeal but undercut a more serious growth of a teenager in an heroic role.”

— Steve Ditko, July 2016 letter to David Currie, Ditko Shrugged, David Currie, 2020  p 74 .

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:29 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

“Stan’s dialogue style of hero/villain wisecracking, undercut the conflict of hero, villain – but it worked with readers who just wanted to be entertained. I believe Stan loved writing those corny captions. It added to reading appeal but undercut a more serious growth of a teenager in an heroic role.”

— Steve Ditko, July 2016 letter to David Currie, Ditko Shrugged, David Currie, 2020  p 74 .

That's STAN loved, not the 'fans' loved.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:27 AM, Prince Namor said:

Can you show it in context please.

Not now - time for me to put my father first. You’re lucky I’m saving you the trouble of reading the cheat sheet I linked above. Or is it you just don’t want to see the Ditko quotes which contradict you?

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:30 AM, Prince Namor said:

That's STAN loved, not the 'fans' loved.

“It added to reading appeal”

”it worked with readers who just wanted to be entertained”

Ditko was willing to sacrifice audience appeal for his vision (which he was happy to do and did in works for which he had complete control like Mr. A).

[VintageComics]

On 10/19/2024 at 1:19 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 10/19/2024 at 1:14 PM, VintageComics said:

Julius' business structure wasn't the Marvel method. Stan's business structure was the Marvel method.

The Marvel Method is just a fancy name for "I'm stealing the credit AND pay."

Ah, well now we've finally gotten to what I think has been the heart of the matter. 

Glad it only took 121 pages.

So it sounds to me like you've concluded and are basically saying that "the Marvel Method" is nothing more than a ploy for Stan to steal credit from creators. 

Is that correct?

Edited Saturday at 05:39 PM by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:34 AM, sfcityduck said:

Not now - time for me to put my father first. You’re lucky I’m saving you the trouble of reading the cheat sheet I linked above. Or is it you just don’t want to see the Ditko quotes which contradict you?

Contradict ME? They contradict Ditko.

YOU said, he said that he didn't provide dialogue 

   On 10/18/2024 at 9:49 AM,  sfcityduck said:

Ditko has written that he did not provide dialogue to Stan.

 

I showed you where he said he DID.

DITKO is the one contradicted. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:38 AM, sfcityduck said:

“It added to reading appeal”

”it worked with readers who just wanted to be entertained”

Ditko was willing to sacrifice audience appeal for his vision (which he was happy to do and did in works for which he had complete control like Mr. A).

Which wasn't what we were discussing.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:38 AM, VintageComics said:

Ah, well now we've finally gotten to what I think has been the heart of the matter. 

Glad it only took 121 pages.

So it sounds to me like you've concluded and are basically saying that "the Marvel Method" is nothing more than a ploy for Stan to steal credit from creators. 

Is that correct?

LOL

[Zonker]

On 10/19/2024 at 1:38 PM, VintageComics said:

Ah, well now we've finally gotten to what I think has been the heart of the matter. 

Glad it only took 121 pages.

So it sounds to me like you've concluded and are basically saying that "the Marvel Method" is nothing more than a ploy for Stan to steal credit from creators. 

Is that correct?

Google "Marvel Method" "kickback scheme" There is a whole cottage industry devoted to making that claim. It's not a hidden agenda, instead a very common opinion among Stan's critics.  

[comicwiz]

On 10/19/2024 at 1:19 PM, Prince Namor said:

The Marvel Method is just a fancy name for "I'm stealing the credit AND pay."

I think there was a "country club" mindset and attitude in those days. One of the cringiest videos to watch is when Flashman interviews Kane. I believe it's in four parts (created sometime around 91/92, before Batman Returns, and around the time when they first began talking about a Spider-Man movie).

I chose to focus on part 2 below.

Some of this carries into the 3rd part as well when Kane is demonstrating his drawing ability, and at one point Stan asks him to stop. Reading this now, I should clarify that he asked him to stop sounding so defensive about his claims, but I kind of wish he'd actually inferred it to mean to stop drawing. 

Why I mention the "cringe" factor is not only seeing Kane drawing, but that this "interview" looks like it was set-up to refute Jerry Robinson's claims publicly, and you can see how the two interact with one another. Talking about jetsetting, and "collecting a cheque", "golfing" when Flashman mentions a man of Kane's success in Part 3, and even Kane's dig about James Cameron writing the script in the video below, because not only does Flashman want it that way (i.e. for someone else to write it), but Kane throws in the jab that he prefers it be Cameron too because that means it will be a "good script."

Watching this when I did for the first time about 13 years ago when it was first published on YouTube, I knew right there and then, it was all a facade, and they damn well knew what each of them were getting away with.

You can start from the 2 minute mark if you don't want to watch it in it's entirely, but a fair warning, the cringe factor increases as you begin to watch and slowly realize this is all theater, and primarily being done for Kane to attest his own claims to Batman, and to refute Jerry Robinson's. 

 

Edited Saturday at 06:15 PM by comicwiz

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:41 AM, Prince Namor said:

Which wasn't what we were discussing.

Yes it was. Ditko acknowledged the readers enjoyed and were more entertained by Stan’s tone than the tone Ditko would have preferred, Which is very strong evidence that Stan was doing the dialogue for the books despite whatever was in Ditko’s “very rough” notes.

Honestly, we aren’t talking about weeds here. You can give an inch. The refusal to accept what is in front of you is not credibility enhancing.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2024 at 10:40 AM, Prince Namor said:

Contradict ME? They contradict Ditko.

YOU said, he said that he didn't provide dialogue 

 

   On 10/18/2024 at 9:49 AM,  sfcityduck said:

Ditko has written that he did not provide dialogue to Stan.

 

I showed you where he said he DID.

DITKO is the one contradicted. 

Ditko provided rough notes Nd Stan did the dialogue - in a way that Ditko did not approve of.