Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:43 PM, Prince Namor said:

There's 12.

In the interests of bringing harmony -- you are both wrong. There are 7 lettered notes (A,B,C,D,E,F,G) with five sharps or flats in between the notes: 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

Point 1) Ironically, in the same video, earlier in the video they talked about Simon, whose extensive experience in business helped pave the way for Jack Kirby's GA success as Simon and Kirby. Simon understood the business side of the industry and how to navigate it much better than Jack did. 

They got ripped off by Goodman - didn't go back to DC after the war, despite how much success they'd had there - got ripped of by Crestwood - and went out of business pretty quickly with their own comic imprint. Where was Simon's business success???

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

Point 2) In much the same way, Lee understood the business side of the industry much better than Kirby did.

These two examples, Simon and Kirby in the GA and Lee and Kirby in the SA show me that Jack was great as a creator, but he wasn't as great as just "Lennon" without a "McCartney" to to shape his raw talent and market it, and it took a Simon or a Lee for Jack to get to the heights he did. 

Lennon and McCartney wrote their own songs during the majority of their time in the Beatles. They would give each other 'middle eigths', but would NOT generally change the others song.

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

Jack was a grunt. A bulldog. He got the physical job done and carried the industry on his back creatively (literally), but alone, without fine tuning and some direction, he was incapable of being as great without someone who could harness that energy and direct it. That's what both Simon and Lee were capable of doing. 

Both Simon / Kirby + Lee / Kirby were greater than the sum of their parts creatively and commercially. 

So why wasn't Lee successful creating comics without Kirby?

Why wasn't Simon successful creating comics without Kirby?

You think Brother Power the Geek and Prez in ANYWAY compare to New Gods??? LOL

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

 

Point 3) Finally, the New Gods / Fourth World stuff.

It has it's followers, and some people swear by it, but it didn't revolutionize the industry the way Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil did, did it?

Did it? By most Lee worshippers logic, Adams and O'Neil's GL/GA failed because it was canceled. 

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

I mean, I've never been compelled to read it. To me, it was lacking something to invite me to it. 

It was missing the Simon or Lee "touch".

Subjective.

On 9/21/2024 at 12:10 PM, VintageComics said:

Side note: A bit of a personal 'Roy' touch, and this is going to sound funny, and some may not understand it, and some might even say I'm making it about myself, but if that's the case, you're missing my point because that's not my intent.

I learned watching those videos last night was that Kirby was a Virgo, born Aug 28th.

I'm a Virgo and Virgos have certain tendencies in my experience. 

Once I learned that, I understood Kirby's worldview and is motivations much better and in a strange way could relate to his strengths and his weaknesses. We can be tenacious and strong willed, which is great when you're battling a war of attrition to outlast competition, which Kirby obviously did, because we literally have endless drive when we love or believe in something (believe me, it's truly endless), but I've also learned that I'm personally much better when someone helps take the rough edges and smooths them out a bit for me, or helps fill in the blind spots as a partner or a manager might.

As I got to know Kirby better through my research, I got to understand more about Kirby and could relate to it because I'd seen it in my own life. 

It's undeniable that Kirby was always greatest when tethered to a partner who could use his raw, primal strengths and either refine, market or direct them in the best possible way. 

Kirby was at his peak(s) when working with Simon, or with Lee, or with his wife Roz.

Subjective.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 12:32 PM, sfcityduck said:

Did Stan co-create with Jack Kirby or not?

Does the person who dialogues a story deserve credit for co-creation of that story or not?

According to LEE, whoever comes up with the CONCEPT is the creator.

Kirby brought those concepts to Lee, not the other way around.

Does Lee deserve credit for adding his ideas to things, regardless of what myself or anyone else thinks about them?

Yes.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 12:48 PM, sfcityduck said:

In the interests of bringing harmony -- you are both wrong. There are 7 lettered notes (A,B,C,D,E,F,G) with five sharps or flats in between the notes: 

That's 12 notes!

An A# is a NOTE. A semitone is a NOTE.

[bronze_rules]

What I always tell people (who aren't really into comics) about Stan Lee is that he changed the field dramatically by putting together a universe of continuous soap operas of interacting characters we cared about. Now, I could be wrong about his contribution there, but I can say that looking back at other publishers like DC and others, they mostly had independent storylines, whereas Marvel had cliffhangers and characters with problems that felt real and had great character growth and challenges. And I don't really think Timely or Atlas had that kind of appeal either. When I look back at the Golden Age stories, I don't care that much about the characters, nor see much of connected, continuous, and greater storylines developed. I remember reading Daredevil and really, really, wanting to know what would happen next in his life. 

Supposing that Stan didn't write or contribute much at all, how was it that all of the independent creators would have had the same direction or innovation to create these continuous and interconnected soap opera stories without some kind of guidance from a leading editor (Stan). Would it be agreeable to say that without Stan the Marvel Universe would have been far less coherent and continuous like DC was? I can't see Jack being solely responsible for all the strong characters like Daredevil, Iron Fist, etc. being part of a much larger universe that was put together in a magical way - and for that, I tend to credit Stan. That's why I tend to agree with some here, that Jack would not have been the same legendary creator without Stan being there. I also have a lot of memories of creators relishing the tales of Stan jumping up and down and excitedly motivating them with poses, or artists who would say Stan would reject numerous covers that didn't carry the vision he wanted. Even if he didn't write all of those stories, he was incredibly important to shaping Marvel's success as we know it today. 

I know very well the feeling of not getting credit because the sales guy minimizes creator's contributions and hoards the benefits. But I don't think Kirby would have ever been the legend he was, nor would he have had the same magic without Stan and being in the right place at the right time (same vice versa, I don't think Joe Maneely would have taken Kirby's place either). One thing about being in any kind of startup is you have a lot more ability to contribute than you would in a large established company. Had Kirby landed directly at DC instead of Marvel, I doubt they would have allowed him the same level of input as he had in Marvel's early days.

Edited 52 minutes ago by bronze_rules

[VintageComics]

On 9/21/2024 at 1:48 AM, sfcityduck said:

On 9/21/2024 at 1:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

There's 12.

In the interests of bringing harmony -- you are both wrong. There are 7 lettered notes (A,B,C,D,E,F,G) with five sharps or flats in between the notes: 

As someone who actually plays music...I was using the do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti, do scale, dammit. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/21/2024 at 1:52 AM, Prince Namor said:

Subjective.

Personal recollections are subjective, and trying to decipher them is even more so.