What's the latest on the CGC Purple vs. Blue Label For Restored Books?

[FFB]

Anyway to directly answer your question.

I do believe that in the short run only that giving restored books a blue label will hurt there value in the short run for 2 reasons.

 

Collectors will resent having a new [dealer fed] grading system forced upon them

 

The restored books flaws under a blue label will force collectors to scrutinize restored books all the more.

 

However I do not believe that a blue label will improve restored books prices.

 

Three points:

 

1) The entire CGC label system was "forced" upon the industry, so what is the big deal if they tweak their system a bit? I know that many collectors "resented" the CGC system being "forced" upon the hobby back in 1999-2000, but that "resentment" doesn't seem to have harmed CGC's business too much now has it? Regardless, the reason I, as a collector, like the new restoration rating system is because it makes it easier to understand what has been done to the book. This is similar to the 10-point restoration rating scale that Jon Berk suggested long ago in CBG or CBM (wherever his article was). In other words, the framework for the rating scale came from one of the more famous COLLECTORS in the industry, not from a cabal of dealers.

 

2) Isn't it a good thing for collectors to scrutinize the book inside the slab instead of just buying the label? Actually, since you've said about 100 times that you won't buy any book with any notes on the CGC label, maybe I'm asking the wrong person this question.

 

3) Who cares if it causes an immediate increase in prices or not? I believe that the prices of restored books will continue along as they have, increasing gradually, whether the label or rating system is changed or not.

[awe4one]

The entire CGC label system was "forced" upon the industry, so what is the big deal if they tweak their system a bit? I know that many collectors "resented" the CGC system being "forced" upon the hobby back in 1999-2000, but that "resentment" doesn't seem to have harmed CGC's business too much now has it? Regardless, the reason I, as a collector, like the new restoration rating system is because it makes it easier to understand what has been done to the book. This is similar to the 10-point restoration rating scale that Jon Berk suggested long ago in CBG or CBM (wherever his article was). In other words, the framework for the rating scale came from one of the more famous COLLECTORS in the industry, not from a cabal of dealers.

 

Just for the record, since I was very vocally against the changes as laid out initially, I see no problem with the additional resto notations on purple labels. More info is better than none in my opinion...on any slab regardless of color...

 

I'm surprised they threw the whole idea out after nixing the resto blue label. I'm very curious why it was a "all or none" proposition...

 

Was having a resto blue label more important than providing additional info for the resto collectors?

 

Jim

[FFB]

With alot of effort you have probably found 2 books[restored] that made some money.THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS in any subject what so ever that you can think of and that is the case here.You cant based on 2 examples come to the conclusion that all restored books are at least decent investments.Anyway,I will post more restored books that lost money since thats what you really want to see.

 

While I'm waiting for you to come up with any, I'm going to post some more examples showing how restored books have increased in price in the last two or three years. I looked through GPAnalysis for all of Detective Comics #1-20, Action Comics #1-20, More Fun Comics #11-55, New Adventure Comics #12-31, Adventure Comics #32-50, Marvel Comics #1, and Marvel Mystery #2-10, and didn't find a single example of a book that sold for more during 2002-2003 than it did during 2005-2006 except for Marvel Mystery Comics #7, and although the book sold for less in 2005, it resold for more in March 2006 than it did in December 2002. I also threw in a couple of key Amazing Fantasy #15 high grade sales to show how high grade restored silver age books (i.e., above apparent CGC 8.0) have increased in value. I didn't include all of the AF#15 sales for low grade restored copies because low grade restored silver age books are not as accepted or in demand by collectors because of plentiful supply and lower prices on lower grade unrestored copies. (In other words, because low grade unrestored copies of AF#15 and other silver age keys are relatively inexpensive, there is generally no reason to buy a restored copy, so prices do not follow the same behavior as high grade restored silver age books or restored golden age books of mid grade or high grade.)

 

Detective Comics #1:

CGC 7.0 Extensive (P)

Sold December 2003: $6,785

Sold March 2006: $10,101

 

Detective Comics #38:

CGC 7.0 Extensive (P) sold December 2003: $2,470.20

CGC 5.0 Extensive (P) sold August 2005: $3,737.50 (four grades lower selling for almost twice as much)

 

Action Comics #15:

CGC 8.0 Slight (P)

Sold twice in October 2002: $1,275 and $1,150

Sold January 2005: $2,500

 

Marvel Comics #1:

CGC 7.0 Extensive (P) sold February 2004: $14,375

CGC 6.5 Extensive (P) sold February 2005: $25,300 (one grade lower sold for almost twice as much)

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #7:

CGC 9.0 Extensive (P):

Sold December 2002: $1,437.50

Sold August 2005: $1,265.00

Sold March 2006: $1,500.00

 

Amazing Fantasy #15:

CGC 9.6 Slight (P):

Sold July 2003: $8,165.00

Sold April 2004: $16,000 (with three separate buy orders at $16,000 placed on ComicLink within three hours of listing -- book would sell for at least $25,000 today)

 

Amazing Fantasy #15:

CGC 9.0 Slight (P):

Sold August 2003: $5,635.00

Sold February 2005: $6,211.11.

[FFB]

The entire CGC label system was "forced" upon the industry, so what is the big deal if they tweak their system a bit? I know that many collectors "resented" the CGC system being "forced" upon the hobby back in 1999-2000, but that "resentment" doesn't seem to have harmed CGC's business too much now has it? Regardless, the reason I, as a collector, like the new restoration rating system is because it makes it easier to understand what has been done to the book. This is similar to the 10-point restoration rating scale that Jon Berk suggested long ago in CBG or CBM (wherever his article was). In other words, the framework for the rating scale came from one of the more famous COLLECTORS in the industry, not from a cabal of dealers.

 

Just for the record, since I was very vocally against the changes as laid out initially, I see no problem with the additional resto notations on purple labels. More info is better than none in my opinion...on any slab regardless of color...

 

I'm surprised they threw the whole idea out after nixing the resto blue label. I'm very curious why it was a "all or none" proposition...

 

Was having a resto blue label more important than providing additional info for the resto collectors?

 

Jim

 

Don't know, Jim. While I've never been a big fan of the "scarlet letter" purple label, I think the new restoration rating system would have been a good thing even if the purple label were retained.

[action1kid]

I think that your drawing more attention to its flaws by putting it in a blue label than if it was in a purple label, and I guess thats a good thing.

 

As my prior above statement says, Yes it is a good thing. I didnt say it wasnt.

 

I am looking into published sales figures........

[action1kid]

and it is a joke................

[action1kid]

If GPA dosnt have a list of any restored comicbook ever going down[ever] than didnt you really answer your own question? They dont have any listed.

Like I said the hobby isnt going to advertise the restored comicbooks that go down in value.Naturally there only going to promote the prices that go up and up and up!

Because they dont[and why would they?] promote sales that lose value there will not be a database of published sales at least that back up restored comicbooks losing value on a published price level.

 

Where the losses are ,They are in the unpublished sales. The ones that you never see.[private sales]

Which are a greater percentage than what you see by Heritage and the auction houses you have quoted. Not everyone advertises what something was sold for and most dont.

Certainly there are unpublished restored books that have gone down in price[they do exsist you know]

 

Admittingly for the above reasons finding published sales is not easy in a hobby that understandibly wants to promote itself in a positive image.

[FFB]

If GPA dosnt have a list of any restored comicbook ever going down[ever] than didnt you really answer your own question? They dont have any listed.

Like I said the hobby isnt going to advertise the restored comicbooks that go down in value.Naturally there only going to promote the prices that go up and up and up!

Because they dont[and why would they?] promote sales that lose value there will not be a database of published sales at least that back up restored comicbooks losing value on a published price level.

 

Where the losses are ,They are in the unpublished sales. The ones that you never see.[private sales]

Which are a greater percentage than what you see by Heritage and the auction houses you have quoted. Not everyone advertises what something was sold for and most dont.

Certainly there are unpublished restored books that have gone down in price[they do exsist you know]

 

Admittingly for the above reasons finding published sales is not easy in a hobby that understandibly wants to promote itself in a positive image.

 

Are you serious? Please! I could point you to HUNDREDS of unrestored books that have gone down in value in the last three years, ALL of which are reported on GPA. GPA reports EVERYTHING that sells on any of its reporting venues, good, bad, or indifferent.

 

Look, why don't you just admit that you can't find a single restored GA book or high grade restored SA book that dropped in price relative to two or three years ago and we can move on?

 

[action1kid]

Look, why don't you just admit that you can't find a single restored GA book or high grade restored

 

I cant find any PUBLISHED evidence that a restored comic has ever gone down and that is ridiculous now that I have looked.

As a matter of fact by what is spoon fed publically to us you would think that restored comics are valued as Highly as unrestored comics.Im not buying it for one minute.I know what goes on outside of published sales and restored comics are having a hard time.They are museum pieces on dealers shelves and there -aint -no way those figures are ever going to be advertised. Ever..........

Even those books you mention[particularly silver age] are sold at enormous discounts and that is still putting it lightly.

[FFB]

Look, why don't you just admit that you can't find a single restored GA book or high grade restored

 

I cant find any PUBLISHED evidence that a restored comic has ever gone down and that is ridiculous now that I have looked.

As a matter of fact by what is spoon fed publically to us you would think that restored comics are valued as Highly as unrestored comics.Im not buying it for one minute.I know what goes on outside of published sales and restored comics are having a hard time.They are museum pieces on dealers shelves and there -aint -no way those figures are ever going to be advertised. Ever..........

Even those books you mention[particularly silver age] are sold at enormous discounts and that is still putting it lightly.

 

Enormous discounts to their unrestored counterparts? Of course. That doesn't mean that a restored copy has dropped in value in the last few years.

 

No one is saying that an extensively restored GA book in 9.0 is going to sell for as much as an unrestored 9.0 copy. The question is whether an extensively restored 9.0 book sells for less today than it did two or three years ago. The evidence shows pretty clearly that restored copies have been a pretty good investment over the last two or three years.

[action1kid]

The evidence shows pretty clearly that restored copies have been a pretty good investment over the last two or three years.

 

Well I look at the evidence as sort of an iceburg.

Where 90% of it is below the surface. Keep a sharp watch or you may founder.

[Aman619]

hey Action1, the issue isnt whetherlosses are being hidden under the rug on restored books. The issue is on the other side, with ehte published daya on INCREASED prices FFB is finding. The truth is that they HAVE risen of late, But the WHOLE truth is that they have risen a bit off their ridiculously distressed lows of a few years ago, brought on in part by the new CGC purple labels.

 

The pendulum swung far against them, and has swung back since.

 

So, YES prices have risen, but what does it mean long term? Will they continue to increase? or have they already reclaimed as much as they ever will pricewise? And fall again perhaps??

[FFB]

hey Action1, the issue isnt whetherlosses are being hidden under the rug on restored books. The issue is on the other side, with ehte published daya on INCREASED prices FFB is finding. The truth is that they HAVE risen of late, But the WHOLE truth is that they have risen a bit off their ridiculously distressed lows of a few years ago, brought on in part by the new CGC purple labels.

 

The pendulum swung far against them, and has swung back since.

 

So, YES prices have risen, but what does it mean long term? Will they continue to increase? or have they already reclaimed as much as they ever will pricewise? And fall again perhaps??

 

No, we're off on such a wild tangent that we've all forgotten the real issue. The real issue is whether these books would sell for less SIMPLY BECAUSE of a proposed switch to a blue label with restoration notes. My point is that anyone who is willing to pay good money for a restored book in a purple label slab is not going to pay any less for it if the same book is suddenly in a blue label slab with a different restoration rating score. Although Peter and I got off on a bit of a tangent, that was where we started out.

 

As for the point you raised, what restored books (that were actually sold AS restored books prior to CGC) were selling pre-1999 for lots more than they sold for in 2000-2002 in purple label slabs? I'm not denying that it happened -- I've heard anecdotally that it did. I'm just curious if anyone has specific evidence of it happening. I heard from one person in particular that restored AF#15s used to sell for $30K before CGC and I just have a hard time believing that ever happened.

[FFB]

The evidence shows pretty clearly that restored copies have been a pretty good investment over the last two or three years.

 

Well I look at the evidence as sort of an iceburg.

Where 90% of it is below the surface. Keep a sharp watch or you may founder.

 

Founder how? I only own one restored book, an AF#15, and as I showed you, restored AF#15s are HOT.

[Mr. Zipper]

While I'm waiting for you to come up with any, I'm going to post some more examples showing how restored books have increased in price in the last two or three years...

 

Scott, why bother with annoying details like "facts."

 

Some people HATE resto so much that they presume that almost everyone else does as well. They'll NEVER make or accept any positive statement about restored books because it harshly conflicts with their worldview.

 

Given what I've read in this thread, it appears you'd have a better chance of convincing Cindy Sheehan that George Bush is a decent guy.

[action1kid]

No, we're off on such a wild tangent that we've all forgotten the real issue

I think your right.

Im going to go back and read the threads in more detail.

[RDK]

The quote button is your friend. Please use it.

[Aman619]

hey Action1, the issue isnt whetherlosses are being hidden under the rug on restored books. The issue is on the other side, with ehte published daya on INCREASED prices FFB is finding. The truth is that they HAVE risen of late, But the WHOLE truth is that they have risen a bit off their ridiculously distressed lows of a few years ago, brought on in part by the new CGC purple labels.

 

The pendulum swung far against them, and has swung back since.

 

So, YES prices have risen, but what does it mean long term? Will they continue to increase? or have they already reclaimed as much as they ever will pricewise? And fall again perhaps??

 

No, we're off on such a wild tangent that we've all forgotten the real issue. The real issue is whether these books would sell for less SIMPLY BECAUSE of a proposed switch to a blue label with restoration notes. My point is that anyone who is willing to pay good money for a restored book in a purple label slab is not going to pay any less for it if the same book is suddenly in a blue label slab with a different restoration rating score. Although Peter and I got off on a bit of a tangent, that was where we started out.

 

As for the point you raised, what restored books (that were actually sold AS restored books prior to CGC) were selling pre-1999 for lots more than they sold for in 2000-2002 in purple label slabs? I'm not denying that it happened -- I've heard anecdotally that it did. I'm just curious if anyone has specific evidence of it happening. I heard from one person in particular that restored AF#15s used to sell for $30K before CGC and I just have a hard time believing that ever happened.

 

I dont have too many dates and figures handy. I was speaking in regard to often expressed diminished status of restored books prices once they started showing up in Purple labels. Certainly we have both heard it enough around here to accept it as truth. no?

 

In my personal take on the subject, disclosed restored books gained acceptance with the first Sotheby's auctions. But over the course of the 90s, lost favor. Then plummeted to new lows (too low as many have pointed out) once CGC came along. And, as your data illustrates, have experienced a bounce, perhaps a dead cat bounce IMO, but a solid uptick of late.

 

Maybe I got it all wrong...?

[sborock]

The entire CGC label system was "forced" upon the industry, so what is the big deal if they tweak their system a bit? I know that many collectors "resented" the CGC system being "forced" upon the hobby back in 1999-2000, but that "resentment" doesn't seem to have harmed CGC's business too much now has it? Regardless, the reason I, as a collector, like the new restoration rating system is because it makes it easier to understand what has been done to the book. This is similar to the 10-point restoration rating scale that Jon Berk suggested long ago in CBG or CBM (wherever his article was). In other words, the framework for the rating scale came from one of the more famous COLLECTORS in the industry, not from a cabal of dealers.

 

Just for the record, since I was very vocally against the changes as laid out initially, I see no problem with the additional resto notations on purple labels. More info is better than none in my opinion...on any slab regardless of color...

 

I'm surprised they threw the whole idea out after nixing the resto blue label. I'm very curious why it was a "all or none" proposition...

 

Was having a resto blue label more important than providing additional info for the resto collectors?

 

Jim

 

Don't know, Jim. While I've never been a big fan of the "scarlet letter" purple label, I think the new restoration rating system would have been a good thing even if the purple label were retained.

 

FYI.....We are still going ahead with the new rating system, we are just not getting rid of the purple label. Just going through all the programming issues

[awe4one]

The entire CGC label system was "forced" upon the industry, so what is the big deal if they tweak their system a bit? I know that many collectors "resented" the CGC system being "forced" upon the hobby back in 1999-2000, but that "resentment" doesn't seem to have harmed CGC's business too much now has it? Regardless, the reason I, as a collector, like the new restoration rating system is because it makes it easier to understand what has been done to the book. This is similar to the 10-point restoration rating scale that Jon Berk suggested long ago in CBG or CBM (wherever his article was). In other words, the framework for the rating scale came from one of the more famous COLLECTORS in the industry, not from a cabal of dealers.

 

Just for the record, since I was very vocally against the changes as laid out initially, I see no problem with the additional resto notations on purple labels. More info is better than none in my opinion...on any slab regardless of color...

 

I'm surprised they threw the whole idea out after nixing the resto blue label. I'm very curious why it was a "all or none" proposition...

 

Was having a resto blue label more important than providing additional info for the resto collectors?

 

Jim

 

Don't know, Jim. While I've never been a big fan of the "scarlet letter" purple label, I think the new restoration rating system would have been a good thing even if the purple label were retained.

 

FYI.....We are still going ahead with the new rating system, we are just not getting rid of the purple label. Just going through all the programming issues

 

 

Jim