Boy Comics # 17 New Thread

[comicnut]

It honestly looks like foxing at the top.

Someone let me know when Steve updates this... I have to go now and clean and press a couple thousand comics that I have so they'll grade higher and stay blue!

[TvComics]

At the risk of being accused of misquoting Steve/CGC or bending his words, let me tell you what I took from his opening post in this thread….

 

I believe he says a given comic book does not have one and only one grade. Rather it has a grade and a potential grade. The potential grade is the grade it COULD BE if it were to live up to its potential.

 

Why do I think Steve said this – oh – because he said: “The book must have been later on pressed to its full potential, which resulted in a second upgrade to a 9.0”

- Not the use of the words “FULL POTENTIAL”

 

You see, to me, that means that Steve thinks that a 60 year old book that has been stored and well loved over the years does not have a grade today of, say, 6.0. Rather, it has a grade today of 6.0 and a FULL POTENTIAL grade of something potentially higher.

 

 

Well now, how does Steve think that a well loved and cared for comic book can reach its FULL POTENTIAL – I believe that Steve thinks that FULL POTENTIAL is reached by doing any or all of the following (these are direct quotes from him):

 

1) re-attachment of original parts of a comic book (without using reinforcement or glue)

2) erasure

3) dry cleaning or

4) pressing

 

- none of the above (according to a relatively new company) is to be considered restoration and as such, they do not note it on their CGC label.

 

As I start to ponder this concept of POTENTIAL as supported by CGC, I wonder if they are the Watchmen or do they actually need to be watched. We passionate collectors who truly love our comics are outraged by some of the blatant manipulation of our comic treasures. We have been looking to CGC to help us protect these treasures from the evils of the manipulators and the gamers. Perhaps we should not look to CGC for help, but rather, look at them as a entity that is actually aiding, abetting, and in many ways encouraging the manipulation of our treasures.

 

I need to sit back and really think about this before I go any further.

 

My closing thought is that I do not believe a comic has POTENTIAL but rather it simply is what it is.

[awe4one]

My closing thought is that I do not believe a comic has POTENTIAL but rather it simply is what it is.

 

Exactly...Great post...

 

Jim

[Forbush-Man]

Nicely put, TV.

[lighthouse]

My closing thought is that I do not believe a comic has POTENTIAL but rather it simply is what it is.

 

Exactly...Great post...

 

Jim

 

Um, isn't this exactly what CGC has said they do when they grade? "It simply is what it is".

 

The very concept of "It simply it what it is" would indicate that books have potential.

 

Example:

 

I have a really nice copy of Avengers 83 that got left in a box by mistake without a board for about 3 weeks. The lower right corner has curled about 20 degrees from flat. The book is otherwise a 9.2. If I submit it to CGC today, it will likely come back at about a 7.0, maybe an 8.0 if I am lucky. Looks pretty, but doesn't lay flat. "It simply is what it is", it's a 7.0.

 

I take that book, put it in a mylar with a fullback, stick it in the middle of a long box of books, and stand that box on end in my closet. I leave it in there for about 6 weeks undisturbed. When I pull the book back out of the box, and open up the mylar, it will lay as flat as the day it came out. And if I send it to CGC, it will come back as a 9.2. "It simply is what it is".

 

What's more, if I slabbed the book today, and it got a 7.0, and I left it in the slab for about 3 months, then cracked it and resubmitted, the book would probably be an 8.5 or so. The slab itself would remove part of the curl for me over time. Not as effectively as me standing a box on end, but the slab would actually improve the book over time. The grade would rise from 7.0 to 8.5 while the book was within the holder. CGC has to still give it a 7.0 today, because otherwise I could sell it today to someone who cracked it out immediately and that person would be furious if it was an 8.5 with a curled corner. But if I sold it today and they cracked it out in three months, they would look at the book and figure CGC had undergraded it...

 

I don't advocate trimming. I don't advocate getting out a steam iron. But some books absolutely have "potential". I have an otherwise 9.0 copy of Showcase 79 with a piece of tape stuck to the back cover. The book is currently in the 4.0-6.0 range depending on who you talk to. "It simply is what it is". But if I can get that piece of tape off without damaging the book, it will be a 9.0. It's a book with the potential to be a 9.0. And at some point when I feel brave enough, I plan to attempt to improve that copy.

[dzminn]

 

and, frankly, you neednt have added that last paragraph. Why try to sell us on CGC here? I think it was out of place in the context of following up on the comic in question.

 

love ya anyway!

 

Exactly!

 

If you bought into the first part of his post, this last paragraph wasn't necessary.

 

If however you sense something is very wrong with his response, that last paragraph would hardly suffice to eliminate your concerns.

 

As the author of this thread asks, do you believe we are much better off than before? Well comic punks, do ya?

 

If so, keep spending more for slabbed comics than you need to - and keep submitting your raw treasures in the hope that you to..... will receive the special consideration that certain BSD's do.

 

It's good to see that as each layer of the CGC onion is peeled away - the stench is forcing more collectors to re-evaluate if this is the type of organization they can trust.

[awe4one]

Bu1l..what's going on isn't a matter of stacking in the closet. It's a deliberate manipulation of the grading process...

 

Jim

[lighthouse]

Bu1l..what's going on isn't a matter of stacking in the closet. It's a deliberate manipulation of the grading process...

 

Jim

 

Jim, I wasn't talking about the Boy 17, or any of the other questionable books we have seen...

 

I was only addressing the basic question of whether books have potential or not. And in the abstract, some of them do. Anyone who doesn't see that is blind.

 

It breaks my heart that people are out there trimming 9.4 books to try to make them 9.6s. But you can't use that example to come up with a standard that says "all improvements are restoration". Because clearly not all improvements are.

 

I have books in my possession that have potential to be higher grades than they are today, without using any restorative techniques. So do you. So does every collector.

[The Black Hand ®]

You can use a tiny sliver of old comic book pages on the backside of a torn centerfold area to act as support without glue and it's virtually undedectable unless you take the book apart.

[WonderClassics-migration]

It's funny how a second thread had to be started on the same exact subject, with many of the same questions being asked, and no new conclusions being reached.

 

Boy Comics #17. I can understand how this book made such great jumps in grade without additive restoration. A severe downgrade was made because of two detached centerfolds. This appears to be a single staple book, and it is possible for center pages to wiggle out without much or any damage to occur to the paper. Obviously someone just wiggled them back in, perhaps without even opening the staple area. From looking at the scans there seems to be some crease lines coming off of the spine, which after being pressed out, would help improve the final grade. As far as possible color touch to the staple area, didn't someone in the other thread say that was a small flap of paper that was folded over? Appears that was another thing corrected during pressing.

 

Funny Pages V2 #11. This one appears also to have benefited from pressing, as it also seems to be some crease lines coming off of the spine, which after being pressed out, would help improve the final grade.

[mica]

Why is it that when we finally hear something, it just makes things worse.

 

In saying something like, We're better off now than we were, isn't appropriate for this. It's spin.

Sure we might have been suspicious of more books back in the day, but that was part of it. Now we're more suspicious of our self proclaimed guaranty guardian of the industry.

So no, we're not better off.

[jduran1]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

[Red Hook]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

 

The argument about pressing will be dead when we decide it's dead. But I enjoy hearing from the Pod People anyway!

[ronm3-migration]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

 

[Red Hook]

Actually, you gents should realize that over the last two years, we've slipped back to the uncertainties of 1996!

[EastEnd]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

 

 

Unfortunately, it's not just some forum members that take issue with the knowing non-disclosure of improvements to comics; it's much of the collecting community. What we have today is the tyranny of the minority. If and when a competent (and ethical) competitor does emerge, many of us will be taking your advice.

[Aman619]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

 

you probably werent around in the early 90s when Sothebys was the new bigtime respected influence in comics. In some ways they had as big an effect on the hobby in their time as CGC has today. The first auction was a newsworthy event, like the first Ali Frazier fight. (well, not really, but the auction elevated comics collecting to markets it had not cracked before ans made all the news shows.)

 

And Weist and his crew were proponents of Comics Restoration. They too believed in releasing the potential of many VG Golden Age key books... and sent them to Susan to be restored. It was seen, by them, as progress. "All other art collectors do not mind restoration, right? Welcome to the Big Leagues, kids!" So they took 5K books, spent 1K with Susan, and listed them a VFs worth 10 - 15K. Dealers started doing the same thing.

 

Sound familiar? The landscape was "changed" by a major player. And collectors followed, drank the Kool-Aid, or went the other way. And guess what happened? After a few yearsm resistance to restored comics grew. Boooks no longer sold easily. And we finally reached the point a few years ago that when CGC started, they stressed their skill in separating restored books from unrestored so buyers owuld know what they were getting....and because they knew that the market NO LONGER WANTED RESTORED BOOKS!

 

So now, CGC has recreated a similar situation. THEY say whats restoration now... or rather what isnt. But Buyer Beware. The landscape may shift again and leave these books, and their buyers (uh, US), in the lurch.

[Comicdey]

The argument about pressing is dead. CGC doesn't have to explain anything to anyone in this regards. If you don't like their grading standards don't send books in or buy graded books. The guardian of the comic hobby is ourselves not one person or a company. Books can be improved without restoration. A 6.0 non restored book improved to a 9.0 is a book I would gladly buy. So some forum members need to get over it and get with the year 2006.

 

The argument about pressing will be dead when we decide it's dead. But I enjoy hearing from the Pod People anyway!

 

Funny how we all have opinions on this issue. Or non-opinions as the case may be.

 

 

Without holding the book in hand, or any direct from the source knowledge on the Boy 17.....

 

I personally believe that the Boy 17 was restored via cleaning, pressing, manipulation of staples, paper and color.

 

It's too bad that some of the keepers of the Mile High and other pedigree books feel the need to have them slabbed in the first place. If they had all remained in collections in mylars and fullbacks, then we'd be able to get on with our collecting lives without having to read hundreds upon hundreds of opinions on this issue. Mile High books were selling for multiples of guide prior to slabbing, and now as slabbed artifacts, they are still selling for multiples of guide. When they are restored, they tend to get the forgiving blue lable with notes like "small amount of glue" anyway, so what service has CGC provided with this specific pedigree?

 

I just purchsed a CGC 9.0 Zoot 14 PLOD slight (P) that has two small color flecks glued down at spine. That's it....and it's PLOD. Now if it was a Mile High....unrestored and noted.... Forgiven for it's past sins.

[batman_fan]

And lets no forget how poorly graded many of these books were, along with undisclosed restoration.

[gifflefunk]

were or are?