Whatever Happened To PCS?

[towards2112]

Not from Pedigree. Classics Incorporated (Matt Nelson)

 

 

I got the scan of the page.

 

 

Linky poo

[FFB]

PCS has been in business for some time now.

 

It's invite only and you have to sign disclaimers to the effect that you won't say anything to anybody.

 

FACT

 

If this is truly going on -- and I'd love some more concrete confirmation of it -- it's the most blatant, underhanded attempt to screw the collecting community out of their dollars that I've ever heard of. It it's true, it's an abomination.

 

It IS going on, and has been for some time. Trust me on this.

 

If anyone cares to take a search back in time, I was the one to suggest, some 18-odd months ago, that Friesen was working on books in house, and was about to break off into an related company, undertaking 'services'.

 

'Course, I was met by howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...

 

But my, how things have changed.

 

Really? Like who? All I remember of that thread were the howls of derision at CGC. Surely if there were howls of derision at you, they must have been outnumbered by the howls at CGC by a ratio of 500 to 1.

[mosconi]

Yeah, CGC has no future intention of ever disclosing C&P books even if they could detect it, and they have proven they are incapable of detecting micro-trimming. We are in the new era of CGC comic collecting folks, learn to live with it

[Flaming_Telepath]

PCS has been in business for some time now.

 

It's invite only and you have to sign disclaimers to the effect that you won't say anything to anybody.

 

FACT

 

If this is truly going on -- and I'd love some more concrete confirmation of it -- it's the most blatant, underhanded attempt to screw the collecting community out of their dollars that I've ever heard of. It it's true, it's an abomination.

 

It IS going on, and has been for some time. Trust me on this.

 

If anyone cares to take a search back in time, I was the one to suggest, some 18-odd months ago, that Friesen was working on books in house, and was about to break off into an related company, undertaking 'services'.

 

'Course, I was met by howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...

 

But my, how things have changed.

 

Really? Like who? All I remember of that thread were the howls of derision at CGC. Surely if there were howls of derision at you, they must have been outnumbered by the howls at CGC by a ratio of 500 to 1.

 

Banner and Rahl, for two, and in a supporting role, tth2 and sfilosa. I can go spend the next two hours tracking down who posted what, if you want verbatim evidence...

 

It took a long time for this to sink in and the initial response was not one of belief. That is NOT how it played out.

[Flaming_Telepath]

PCS has been in business for some time now.

 

It's invite only and you have to sign disclaimers to the effect that you won't say anything to anybody.

 

FACT

 

If this is truly going on -- and I'd love some more concrete confirmation of it -- it's the most blatant, underhanded attempt to screw the collecting community out of their dollars that I've ever heard of. It it's true, it's an abomination.

 

It IS going on, and has been for some time. Trust me on this.

 

If anyone cares to take a search back in time, I was the one to suggest, some 18-odd months ago, that Friesen was working on books in house, and was about to break off into an related company, undertaking 'services'.

 

'Course, I was met by howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...

 

But my, how things have changed.

 

Really? Like who? All I remember of that thread were the howls of derision at CGC. Surely if there were howls of derision at you, they must have been outnumbered by the howls at CGC by a ratio of 500 to 1.

 

And in fact, if you cast your mind back, a number of people outright declared that I was talking through my arse and that I would have to reveal my source to have any credibility.

 

When I suggested that naming the source would result in the source keeping other information from me, it was you who actually rose to my defence. God, those were the days!

[mosconi]

"Achieve maximum potential" Or in other words: let me manipulate your book the maximum I can get away with, based on defects I know I have corrected/passed by CGC before and let's see if they will continue to turn their eyes from my subtle and ultra professional resto techniques. Blue label baby!!!

[FFB]

PCS has been in business for some time now.

 

It's invite only and you have to sign disclaimers to the effect that you won't say anything to anybody.

 

FACT

 

If this is truly going on -- and I'd love some more concrete confirmation of it -- it's the most blatant, underhanded attempt to screw the collecting community out of their dollars that I've ever heard of. It it's true, it's an abomination.

 

It IS going on, and has been for some time. Trust me on this.

 

If anyone cares to take a search back in time, I was the one to suggest, some 18-odd months ago, that Friesen was working on books in house, and was about to break off into an related company, undertaking 'services'.

 

'Course, I was met by howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...

 

But my, how things have changed.

 

Really? Like who? All I remember of that thread were the howls of derision at CGC. Surely if there were howls of derision at you, they must have been outnumbered by the howls at CGC by a ratio of 500 to 1.

 

And in fact, if you cast your mind back, a number of people outright declared that I was talking through my arse and that I would have to reveal my source to have any credibility.

 

When I suggested that naming the source would result in the source keeping other information from me, it was you who actually rose to my defence. God, those were the days!

 

We must be thinking of different threads then. The one I just looked at was the one Mushroom started about Marnin's article where he said something about CGC/Friesen doing pressing. You chimed in with a few statements about "the whole story coming out," etc. No one seemed to doubt you at all. I have a vague recollection of you starting your own thread, but can't find it.

 

As for sfilosa, you're not allowed to count his opinions because he says the same thing in every thread even when the topic has nothing to do with CGC.

[Davenport]

 

I got the scan of the page.

 

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Holy cow. That one blurb says it all:

 

"The AM #7 went from 6.5 to 9.0! That makes it the highest graded copy..."

 

Unbelievable. I would think there'd be aspects of a true 6.5 Fine+ level book that couldn't be pressed into a VF/NM. Some color-breaking, edge fraying or something significant.

[drbanner]

PCS has been in business for some time now.

 

It's invite only and you have to sign disclaimers to the effect that you won't say anything to anybody.

 

FACT

 

If this is truly going on -- and I'd love some more concrete confirmation of it -- it's the most blatant, underhanded attempt to screw the collecting community out of their dollars that I've ever heard of. It it's true, it's an abomination.

 

It IS going on, and has been for some time. Trust me on this.

 

If anyone cares to take a search back in time, I was the one to suggest, some 18-odd months ago, that Friesen was working on books in house, and was about to break off into an related company, undertaking 'services'.

 

'Course, I was met by howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...

 

But my, how things have changed.

 

Really? Like who? All I remember of that thread were the howls of derision at CGC. Surely if there were howls of derision at you, they must have been outnumbered by the howls at CGC by a ratio of 500 to 1.

 

Banner and Rahl, for two, and in a supporting role, tth2 and sfilosa. I can go spend the next two hours tracking down who posted what, if you want verbatim evidence...

 

It took a long time for this to sink in and the initial response was not one of belief. That is NOT how it played out.

 

This is apples and oranges Nick - the rumor that Chris Friesen was pressing books for select customers WHILE STILL EMPLOYED by CGC is different from the rumor that Chris was GOING TO LEAVE CGC and start offering those services. Last I heard, Mark (Esquire) was going to "ask around" to find evidence whether or not the former actually ever occurred, but to date there has not been any evidence that it ever happened, and not one individual has come forward with 1st-hand experience of it happening.

 

It appears to me there are some people on this thread that don't know what PCS is, and don't know the history but there is some confusion in some of the comments above. I'll see if I can find the original thread you posted that got the ball rolling on this issue...

[Flaming_Telepath]

As for sfilosa, you're not allowed to count his opinions because he says the same thing in every thread even when the topic has nothing to do with CGC.

 

Yeah, I imagine he's sorta been on auto-pilot until he gets shut of all those books through Pedigree...

[Flaming_Telepath]

This is apples and oranges Nick - the rumor that Chris Friesen was pressing books for select customers WHILE STILL EMPLOYED by CGC is different from the rumor that Chris was GOING TO LEAVE CGC and start offering those services. Last I heard, Mark (Esquire) was going to "ask around" to find evidence whether or not the former actually ever occurred, but to date there has not been any evidence that it ever happened, and not one individual has come forward with 1st-hand experience of it happening.

 

I don't suppose it would matter to you if I said I HAVE that first-hand evidence, know the book involved, the work undertaken and the process that was followed?

[mosconi]

"Unlock the hidden value .." In other words: Trust me, I know what I can get away with and CGC is in on this with me. What grade would you prefer I request as I ready these books for transport to Florida Is highest CGC graded fine with you??

[selegue]

 

I got the scan of the page.

 

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Holy cow. That one blurb says it all:

 

"The AM #7 went from 6.5 to 9.0! That makes it the highest graded copy..."

 

Unbelievable. I would think there'd be aspects of a true 6.5 Fine+ level book that couldn't be pressed into a VF/NM. Some color-breaking, edge fraying or something significant.

 

"We remain on the cutting edge..." HAW! subtle

 

Is that "let's be civil" thing still going on? How about "why don't some of you lurkers post more often"? Is it safe to ask a devil's advocate question?

 

Since (as I understand it) the last step in the manufacturing of a comic book is trimming, why is micro-trimming regarded as such a heinous crime? (Understand that I'm a disinterested party because big chunks would probably fly off most of the old comic books I own if someone tried to trim them.) Is the point of view that trimming is "preservation" rather than "destruction" totally crazy, since it potentially gets rid of decaying paper and keeps edge defects (chips and small cracks) from spreading? Is it simply the failure to disclose, rather than the trimming itself, that makes high-end collectors' blood boil?

 

Jack

[joe_collector]

Banner and Rahl, for two, and in a supporting role, tth2 and sfilosa.

 

Big freaking surprise there, These bumpkins have been sucking on the shriveled CGC teat for years now.

[drbanner]

This is apples and oranges Nick - the rumor that Chris Friesen was pressing books for select customers WHILE STILL EMPLOYED by CGC is different from the rumor that Chris was GOING TO LEAVE CGC and start offering those services. Last I heard, Mark (Esquire) was going to "ask around" to find evidence whether or not the former actually ever occurred, but to date there has not been any evidence that it ever happened, and not one individual has come forward with 1st-hand experience of it happening.

 

I don't suppose it would matter to you if I said I HAVE that first-hand evidence, know the book involved, the work undertaken and the process that was followed?

There's no need - I still have the email you sent me with this information (see below), and like I said then, the dealer mentioned below would be doing everyone a big service by coming forward with this information.

 

As for Chris's 'work', he did it in-house....quite the shocker, eh? The 'service' was offered to a few big dealers (cash cows) considered tame and pliant enough to remain silent. After all, why would they break the news whilst they were seeing their 9.0s come back 9.4s?

 

The problem was that CGC offered the service to one dealer who wasn't quite as tame as they thought he was and he turned down their generous offer of additional, undisclosed services. That dealer is at the centre of the pressure group who are trying to get Steve to turn away from this potentially suicidal course of action.

 

In any event, you can read any of those threads back then (here's one), but I can assure you that you are not going to see any comments from me deriding you with "...howls of gleeful derision at the time by a number of the CGC faithful...". In fact, I remember that after the information came out you commented something to the effect of "...and I told one forum member about this earlier, and they can comment on it if they wish..." and I did respond that indeed, you did tell me about Chris' "new" service.

 

Sorry man, but if anyone around here doesn't jump on the CGC-bashing bandwagon they're labeled a CGC apologist or a member of the CGC faithful, which is as unfair as calling you a CGC-basher b/c you don't agree with some aspects of CGC's business. I'm a practical realist, and if you re-read our email correspondence (or any of those threads), you're not going to see any blind CGC loyalty from me.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Sorry man, but if anyone around here doesn't jump on the CGC-bashing bandwagon they're labeled a CGC apologist or a member of the CGC faithful, which is as unfair as calling you a CGC-basher b/c you don't agree with some aspects of CGC's business. I'm a practical realist, and if you re-read our email correspondence (or any of those threads), you're not going to see any blind CGC loyalty from me.

 

Alright, I was a bit harsh in my assessment of your stance.

 

In all fairness, though, I think you're standing just on the other side of the fence to me, rather than taking the middle ground of a 'practical realist'.

[drbanner]

In fact, I remember that after the information came out you commented something to the effect of "...and I told one forum member about this earlier, and they can comment on it if they wish..." and I did respond that indeed, you did tell me about Chris' "new" service.

I found my post. And like I said back then, unlike other forum members "that don't appear to be involved in any way in the the actual buying and selling and slabbing of comic books and apparently don't attend comic book conventions either so how they gain the incredible amount of knowledge they like to tell everyone they have I certainly have no idea", I do know people that have some clue as to what's actually going on under the roof at CGC, and indeed they were able to corroborate the plans for Chris to start his own service under the CCG. My sources did not have any knowledge, however, of Chris doing work WHILE EMPLOYED AT CGC.

 

I also PM'ed Steve asking him directly about this issue, and posted his reponse. This all doesn't mean I don't believe it didn't happen, but I'm not sold that it did so it would be great for one of the select few to come forward...

[drbanner]

Sorry man, but if anyone around here doesn't jump on the CGC-bashing bandwagon they're labeled a CGC apologist or a member of the CGC faithful, which is as unfair as calling you a CGC-basher b/c you don't agree with some aspects of CGC's business. I'm a practical realist, and if you re-read our email correspondence (or any of those threads), you're not going to see any blind CGC loyalty from me.

 

Alright, I was a bit harsh in my assessment of your stance.

 

In all fairness, though, I think you're standing just on the other side of the fence to me, rather than taking the middle ground of a 'practical realist'.

 

Thanks...I think your source puts you on one side, whereas mine puts me on the other, but my feet aren't set in concrete, so tell your source to fess up!!

[jbud73]

Ah here we go again

 

Before we all drag Matt Nelson's name through the mud - and I will preface by saying I DO NOT AGREE with the loophole he is exploiting. I will also say that Matt is one of the most knowledgable people in the hobby and in possession of a wealth of information which he is seemingly always ready to share. If I had a book I was considering getting restored his name would be at the top of the list. He is honest with his assessment of what is and is not possible and is willing to explain each and every aspect of the book in question with you - often giving you more information than you would ever want to know.

 

But lets have a look at where we find ourselves as collectors in the current state of back issue collecting. A brief summary: about 10-15 years ago there were other techniques employed to at a very high level of professionalsim to "help a comic book reach its maximum potential." I believe that is when the proliferation of restoration ensued. Of course there was a resulting backlash which casued restoration to become a dirty word in our hobby. This is sad because I believe that restoration and conservation techniques are important in any collectibles industry where the medium (IE paper) is highly perishable. Of course the Devils Advocate arguement could be "well serves them right, had they left the books alone none of this would have happend."

 

If you talk to people who were highly active in the hobby at the upper echelon, they will often say that, "that was just the way things were back then." Everyone was doing it and you were leaving $$$ on the table if you didnt someone would by the book and have it done anyway.

 

I guess in retrospect we are in another TEST CYCLE. The rules are different, what is being done to the books is different, however the goals and rewards are the same. This time I personally feel that two issues are different. One the legitimacy envoked by CGC and two the profileration. Its a cost-benefit of effects. I will openly state that CGC is a NET positive to the hobby. However, I will also openly state that CGC was DELIBERATELY set up to allow the crack, clean, press technique to occur. In fact, based on their ties and roots in the coin industry what is happening now is the enbodiment of a successfull transition to comics for the powers that be at CCG and Heritage auctions.

 

So where does that leave us as collectors. Given that CGC is NOT going to start noting NDP even if they could detect it and that the purveyors of the technique are NOT simply going to cease - there are only a few likely scenerios that can occur.

 

1. Market backlash - I'm sure JC's happy heart would sing if this happened, depression era style crash. And as was previosuly the case the resulting backlash would be a bad thing for comics as a whole.

 

2. The well dries up. As FFB is oft to point out, there are only so many books that the Clean and Press can be performed on - sooner or later you have to think the stock will drop.

 

3. Market Implosion - we have already seen this with the Jason Ewert ordeal and this is my great fear and unfortunatly great hope. The lucrative nature of C&P is no longer enough and other techniques are sought out in order to squeeze more out of less. Will CGC be up to the task? I certainly hope so.

 

I also mentioned that this is my great hope - why? Well, the only way I see the market imploding is if people stop paying the huge multiples for .2 gradient variations in comic books. In reality this is the only thing in the collectors direct control To play Devils Advocate once again. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY 10X Guide for a 9.6 copy of a non-key, or very minor key SA Comic Book.

 

The reason the crack, clean and press game is going on, that Chis Friesen left CGC to start performing these services in-house for Heritage and other selct clients - IS BECAUSE OF THE $$$. Does anyone really thing that these techniques are being employed for the betterment of the comic book?? The only way I see it stopping is if it is NO LONGER LUCRATIVE. There will always be people with more money to burn than common sense. However the reason the market is where it is right now is not because the Uber rich are blowing tonnes of money on the Uber keys. Look at the Parrino incident, no I think the Top books have more or less topped out - for the time being and regardless will ALWAYS be expensive anyway.

 

The reason the market is where it is right now is because the average serious collector, the person who will spend 500 - 5000 on a single comic book, not everyday but will a few times a year - has had their pocketbook swayed a few positions to the right buy a .2 differentiation in condition. Only when a .2 change in grade equals .2 increase in cost differential, will the market change - I believe that change will be for the better. All other scenerios lead to potential disaster.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I also mentioned that this is my great hope - why? Well, the only way I see the market imploding is if people stop paying the huge multiples for .2 gradient variations in comic books. In reality this is the only thing in the collectors direct control To play Devils Advocate once again. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY 10X Guide for a 9.6 copy of a non-key, or very minor key SA Comic Book.

 

The reason the crack, clean and press game is going on, that Chis Friesen left CGC to start performing these services in-house for Heritage and other selct clients - IS BECAUSE OF THE $$$. Does anyone really thing that these techniques are being employed for the betterment of the comic book?? The only way I see it stopping is if it is NO LONGER LUCRATIVE. There will always be people with more money to burn than common sense. However the reason the market is where it is right now is not because the Uber rich are blowing tonnes of money on the Uber keys. Look at the Parrino incident, no I think the Top books have more or less topped out - for the time being and regardless will ALWAYS be expensive anyway.

 

The reason the market is where it is right now is because the average serious collector, the person who will spend 500 - 5000 on a single comic book, not everyday but will a few times a year - has had their pocketbook swayed a few positions to the right buy a .2 differentiation in condition. Only when a .2 change in grade equals .2 increase in cost differential, will the market change - I believe that change will be for the better. All other scenerios lead to potential disaster.

 

Cue a number of people defending people's right to 'buy what they want' and a number of others suggesting that 'it's simply jealousy'.

 

For what it's worth, I agree 100%. Nobody would smuggle in materials from Columbia and set up crack house if no-one was buying.

 

PCS is a crack-house (ouch!) and I've said these exact words before - Just Say No!