Intriguing Definitional Changes In New 2006 Overstreet Guide

[Genesis Comics]

Besides, there are new people coming on board here all the time, so we gotta' keep them up on what's happening.

 

 

 

 

And, I, as a newbie appreciate it. While there may have been issues in the past, Ewert, etc...I wouldn't have known about them unless someone brought them up, provided links, etc...Any information that I can get to help me make an informed decision is always appreciated!!

[Ze-man]

I agree that info known to many might be unkown to those new to the forum. Yes a person can use the search function, but if a person does not know to look for something,it will remain unknown to them.

Anyways,I am sitting at the art gallery working on a lazy saturday, surfing on my wifes new BLACKBERRY,it is a very unique feeling to surf the boards from a wireless handheld device. And. I thought a wifi laptop was liberating.

On topic, is the word pressing in. the glossary in any way shape or form? Or is it simply not a word found in the book? For that matter is it not in CGC's, yet either?

 

Ze-

[Aman619]

I disagree 99% with your suspicions about Geppi's hand on the the till at the Guide. (The last 1% is to allow for the possibility you suggest since I wasnt born yesterday...). Please offer some data or specifics from the last ten years he has owned Overstreet to back up your cynical claims of self-serving control over the Guide's direction, and pricing. As for Geppis comics collection, it is only one increasingly small asset on his books. (He owns many many things in collectibles and out, and earns probably an amount EQUAL to his comics holdings every year from Diamond alone. In other words, Geppi is far bigger thana comics collector today in 2006. Having so much, to me, argues strongly AGAINST his personal involvement in eking out pennies by bumping comics prices... or, for agreeing with CGC that pressing is not restoration. Are you alos implying that Steve is a presser nowadays??

 

And, others please back me up on this, while he has a whole warehouse full of comics, he does not have a market on all that many of the BEST stuff in the top grades...

 

I may be a bit naive when it comes to Steve. He has always been a gentleman to me, and a smart, clean (while admittedly tough) businessman. But not a crook, cheat or corner cutter. I have seen his ownership of Overstreet and all the other comics properties he has amassed as beneficial to the hobby we all love because HE loves it so much. CGC could learn a lot from his staunch stewardship of many of the collectibles fields cornerstones like Gemstone and Hakes etc

[lou_fine]

I have seen his ownership of Overstreet and all the other comics properties he has amassed as beneficial to the hobby we all love because HE loves it so much. CGC could learn a lot from his staunch stewardship of many of the collectibles fields cornerstones like Gemstone and Hakes etc

 

Aman;

 

I would wholeheartedly agree with you here.

 

I generally feel that everything Geppi has had to do with his associated businesses such as CBM, Diamond Galleries, upcoming museum, etc. shows his love for the comics and interst in promoting the hobby and trying to expose it to new collectors.

 

Although this might be viewed as an attempt to increase revenue in the long-term, this is a very expensive way of doing it and not necessarily guaranteed to succeed. His primary interest in the short term with these ventures just do not appear to be the almighty dollar.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing about Heritage, CGC, and some of their ventures which appear to be money first and hobby second. From a business point of view though, this is to be expected and actually understandable since this IS their primary source of revenue.

 

It's just sad that their business interests might not always be in the best interests of the collectors and the hobby all the time.

[Dick Pontoon]

This is a bit of an aside to Mark's original post, but unless I missed it, the new guide for the first time ever has left out the usual info about the guide, values, grading, preservation etc etc. That stuff is second nature to anyone reading this thread, but isn't it valuable info to anyone new collector buying a guide for the first time? It seems really strange that its no longer there and also another indication of a fundamental shift and attempt to guide the hobby into a ceratin direction.

[Dick Pontoon]

I really need to start spell checking my posts.

[otherworldsj33]

The guide's market reports are good reading, the majority of them anyway. I don't like the ones that are essentially a glorified advertisment, although most, thankfully, are not. I do like to view the ad's themselves. Many are fun, and clever, although quite a few are repetitive. The cover gallery is always amusing. Most of the articles are informative, and entertaining, obviously some more then others. I like to see the section of the top 100 comics, and the actual sales reports. The covers are usually well done. I like to see the values in a guide book form, it justs makes me feel, I don't know, maybe more secure that my collection has a real, recognized value. And the fundamental info of the titles and dates and artists info and origins and first app, x-overs, etc., and numbering is a indespenible reference.

But here is my complaint. The guide is not really relevant any more, and has been less and less so for a while now, as far as the prices are concerned. I realize it is a guide, and not a bible, but the prices, for sooo many books are waaay off what the reality of the market is. I have been somewhat involed in the used car market on and off for some time now. I know there are price guides aimed at sellers, guides aimed at buyers, others for banks and insurance companies. But they are all priced within a reality of what the true market value of a particular vehicle is worth. I can guarantee you none of them lists a value that is 5 to 10 times different of a vehicles true worth, and this goes, for the most part for many collector cars price guides too, although there is more af a state of flux and multiples of guide value regarding prices in the collector car market and their respective guides. I don't know about guides for other hobbies, but to me the guide for our hobby seems to be slanted to the buyer, i.e. the dealer, and always has been. Although the line between dealer and collector has blurred signifcantly since cgc, the internet, and acution houses, to name the main factors, it seems like the guide insists on a antiquated pricing policy of many years ago. As we all know, many, many GA, and espeically SA and BA books are just not available at the prices the guide puts forth. JLA 1 for example in 9.2, guides at $8700. Who would not take ten of them at that price?? If I want price reality, I don't go to the guide. I go to ebay sales, Heritage auctions, GPA, popular websites, talk with others in our hobby, but NOT the guide.

I respect the guide, the authors, contributors, and its importance to the hobby. I realize the guide helps to get the hooby respect and more recognized. I agree about the definition change of restoration being a step backward, and it would be beneficial for the hobby as a whole if there were a different definition. I belive it is a good idea to investigate and try to get this changed, but my attitude overall about this is, so what? I am going to ignore the restoration definition, just like I ignore (for the most part) the prices. I think most of us agree we have our minds made up of what is and what is not restoration, and the guide is not going to change that. I don't know who the guide's target audience is anymore. It seems to me most seasoned collectors can't use it for it's primary purpose, and if I were a novice, just getting into our hobby, the guide might confuse me more then help me.

Anybody care to tell me where I am missing the boat about this, for those that might disagree. Maybe I am missing something here--JS

[Ze-man]

Anybody care to tell me where I am missing the boat about this, for those that might disagree. Maybe I am missing something here-- I think most of us agree we have our minds made up of what is and what is not restoration, and the guide is not going to change that.JS

 

For what it is worth, While we the people(us) may or may not take Overstreet as gospel, we still do not want wholesale changes made to what it is we choose ignore due to it's impact on the "uninformed" public.

To say anything different is oversimplifiying the matter.

 

Am I right?

 

 

Ze-

[Aman619]

The guide's market reports are good reading, the majority of them anyway. I don't like the ones that are essentially a glorified advertisment, although most, thankfully, are not. I do like to view the ad's themselves. Many are fun, and clever, although quite a few are repetitive. The cover gallery is always amusing. Most of the articles are informative, and entertaining, obviously some more then others. I like to see the section of the top 100 comics, and the actual sales reports. The covers are usually well done. I like to see the values in a guide book form, it justs makes me feel, I don't know, maybe more secure that my collection has a real, recognized value. And the fundamental info of the titles and dates and artists info and origins and first app, x-overs, etc., and numbering is a indespenible reference.

But here is my complaint. The guide is not really relevant any more, and has been less and less so for a while now, as far as the prices are concerned. I realize it is a guide, and not a bible, but the prices, for sooo many books are waaay off what the reality of the market is. I have been somewhat involed in the used car market on and off for some time now. I know there are price guides aimed at sellers, guides aimed at buyers, others for banks and insurance companies. But they are all priced within a reality of what the true market value of a particular vehicle is worth. I can guarantee you none of them lists a value that is 5 to 10 times different of a vehicles true worth, and this goes, for the most part for many collector cars price guides too, although there is more af a state of flux and multiples of guide value regarding prices in the collector car market and their respective guides. I don't know about guides for other hobbies, but to me the guide for our hobby seems to be slanted to the buyer, i.e. the dealer, and always has been. Although the line between dealer and collector has blurred signifcantly since cgc, the internet, and acution houses, to name the main factors, it seems like the guide insists on a antiquated pricing policy of many years ago. As we all know, many, many GA, and espeically SA and BA books are just not available at the prices the guide puts forth. JLA 1 for example in 9.2, guides at $8700. Who would not take ten of them at that price?? If I want price reality, I don't go to the guide. I go to ebay sales, Heritage auctions, GPA, popular websites, talk with others in our hobby, but NOT the guide.

I respect the guide, the authors, contributors, and its importance to the hobby. I realize the guide helps to get the hooby respect and more recognized. I agree about the definition change of restoration being a step backward, and it would be beneficial for the hobby as a whole if there were a different definition. I belive it is a good idea to investigate and try to get this changed, but my attitude overall about this is, so what? I am going to ignore the restoration definition, just like I ignore (for the most part) the prices. I think most of us agree we have our minds made up of what is and what is not restoration, and the guide is not going to change that. I don't know who the guide's target audience is anymore. It seems to me most seasoned collectors can't use it for it's primary purpose, and if I were a novice, just getting into our hobby, the guide might confuse me more then help me.

Anybody care to tell me where I am missing the boat about this, for those that might disagree. Maybe I am missing something here--JS

 

I agree with you. I have stated often how the Guide's prices are less and less meaningful too. Course its always lagged the market because Bob has always chosen to do so, not only to keep it a buyer's Guide (i.e.dealers) but also so he wont have to LOWER prices during market lulls and setbacks,.

 

the only thing you may be missing is that since teh Guide has always been way low on the top books in high grade, nothing has changed there - -- except, lately the magnitude of the difference. CGC HG slabs now routinely sell for much higher prices relative to the Guide. Therefore, of late, the Guide is further than ever behind the market, even after a few years of trying to catch up. But, perhaps a market lull will allow the guide to get close to reality as always worked before. I dont think too many of us really have minded that the Guide lagged the market. Because we all knew how to use th eGuide in the real world. Lately, as I say, however, we dont! Its so far off now that its only works as a true Guide for lower grade books and unpopular stuff, anything except the high demand books in high grade. One can argue (and plenty here do) that that being the case, the Guide is just fine for prices they are interested in.

 

Cleaning out the definitional stuff to add more "comocs" from the 19th century is silly. Thats for certain.

[otherworldsj33]

Ze-man and aman619, true enough. And about all the 19th century stuff and extra mini guides, yes, they have their place, I am sure, but I really don't care much for all of them being included in the guide. They are not the focus of 99%, maybe even 99.5% of comic collectors out there. To me it is like saying, you purchased the suit, so you HAVE to take these shoes to buy the suit. Why are we being (basically) forced to pay for these added pages? And the added weight and size, to boot. Why not just make another guide for all this stuff? Isn't it telling that all this other info has to ride on the coat tails of the guide to even get published? I like to know about new things and broaden my knowledge, and I think from that stand point the more broader focus is admirable, but I don't want to feel like I am being force fed. Maybe Overstreet should take a poll, and see how many of us really want the other guides included, rather then deciding what the collectors want (or should have, or what is good for us).

[Aman619]

since there are two covers and more alternate editions, why not only include the Platinum etc stuff in ONE of them? Like a "Compleat Overstreet Guide?" Plenty of us will stuill buy it as collectors but plenty who dont want or need it can abstain.

[EastEnd]

I disagree 99% with your suspicions about Geppi's hand on the the till at the Guide. (The last 1% is to allow for the possibility you suggest since I wasnt born yesterday...). Please offer some data or specifics from the last ten years he has owned Overstreet to back up your cynical claims of self-serving control over the Guide's direction, and pricing. As for Geppis comics collection, it is only one increasingly small asset on his books. (He owns many many things in collectibles and out, and earns probably an amount EQUAL to his comics holdings every year from Diamond alone. In other words, Geppi is far bigger thana comics collector today in 2006. Having so much, to me, argues strongly AGAINST his personal involvement in eking out pennies by bumping comics prices... or, for agreeing with CGC that pressing is not restoration. Are you alos implying that Steve is a presser nowadays??

 

And, others please back me up on this, while he has a whole warehouse full of comics, he does not have a market on all that many of the BEST stuff in the top grades...

 

I may be a bit naive when it comes to Steve. He has always been a gentleman to me, and a smart, clean (while admittedly tough) businessman. But not a crook, cheat or corner cutter. I have seen his ownership of Overstreet and all the other comics properties he has amassed as beneficial to the hobby we all love because HE loves it so much. CGC could learn a lot from his staunch stewardship of many of the collectibles fields cornerstones like Gemstone and Hakes etc

 

I agree with this. The guy is worth so much money that I find it silly to think he would consciously waste time trying to eek out a few more dollars from his comic book collection in this fashion... the incremental money he might make from it seems too insignificant. I also second the thought that Geppi has done more for getting the hobby (and collectibles in general) exposure than just about anyone else and that's good for all of us.

[EastEnd]

The guide's market reports are good reading, the majority of them anyway. I don't like the ones that are essentially a glorified advertisment, although most, thankfully, are not. I do like to view the ad's themselves. Many are fun, and clever, although quite a few are repetitive. The cover gallery is always amusing. Most of the articles are informative, and entertaining, obviously some more then others. I like to see the section of the top 100 comics, and the actual sales reports. The covers are usually well done. I like to see the values in a guide book form, it justs makes me feel, I don't know, maybe more secure that my collection has a real, recognized value. And the fundamental info of the titles and dates and artists info and origins and first app, x-overs, etc., and numbering is a indespenible reference.

But here is my complaint. The guide is not really relevant any more, and has been less and less so for a while now, as far as the prices are concerned. I realize it is a guide, and not a bible, but the prices, for sooo many books are waaay off what the reality of the market is. I have been somewhat involed in the used car market on and off for some time now. I know there are price guides aimed at sellers, guides aimed at buyers, others for banks and insurance companies. But they are all priced within a reality of what the true market value of a particular vehicle is worth. I can guarantee you none of them lists a value that is 5 to 10 times different of a vehicles true worth, and this goes, for the most part for many collector cars price guides too, although there is more af a state of flux and multiples of guide value regarding prices in the collector car market and their respective guides. I don't know about guides for other hobbies, but to me the guide for our hobby seems to be slanted to the buyer, i.e. the dealer, and always has been. Although the line between dealer and collector has blurred signifcantly since cgc, the internet, and acution houses, to name the main factors, it seems like the guide insists on a antiquated pricing policy of many years ago. As we all know, many, many GA, and espeically SA and BA books are just not available at the prices the guide puts forth. JLA 1 for example in 9.2, guides at $8700. Who would not take ten of them at that price?? If I want price reality, I don't go to the guide. I go to ebay sales, Heritage auctions, GPA, popular websites, talk with others in our hobby, but NOT the guide.

I respect the guide, the authors, contributors, and its importance to the hobby. I realize the guide helps to get the hooby respect and more recognized. I agree about the definition change of restoration being a step backward, and it would be beneficial for the hobby as a whole if there were a different definition. I belive it is a good idea to investigate and try to get this changed, but my attitude overall about this is, so what? I am going to ignore the restoration definition, just like I ignore (for the most part) the prices. I think most of us agree we have our minds made up of what is and what is not restoration, and the guide is not going to change that. I don't know who the guide's target audience is anymore. It seems to me most seasoned collectors can't use it for it's primary purpose, and if I were a novice, just getting into our hobby, the guide might confuse me more then help me.

Anybody care to tell me where I am missing the boat about this, for those that might disagree. Maybe I am missing something here--JS

 

I think the overwhelming majority of the prices in the guide are reasonably accurate -- particularly since most folks use the guide to determine how much they're willing to pay for a particular comic. It's true that in some instances, particularly with regard to high grade keys, the guide is off -- sometimes way off -- but I suspect those account for less than 1% of all the prices in the guide. Overstreet's philosophy has always been to be wary of volatility in pricing and so it generally has maintained a conservative slant when approaching "hot comics." And I think the editors readily admit this by not including pricing for books grading hgher than 9.2 which are the most volatile of all.

 

I also like the "smoothing" to prices within a non-key run that Overstreet does (e.g., Flash #141-150 NM- $140). If you look at actual sales data you might see wide swings in the pricing of books in the series because there simply aren't that many CGC transactions yet to "naturally"smooth out the pricing.

[Red Hook]

 

The guy is worth so much money that I find it silly to think he would consciously waste time trying to eek out a few more dollars from his comic book collection in this fashion... the incremental money he might make from it seems too insignificant.

 

I'm not speaking specifically of Mr. Geppi, but you obviously don't understand the mechanations of greed. It's always about eeking out a few more bucks. How much you already have has nothing to do with it.

 

Red

[EastEnd]

 

The guy is worth so much money that I find it silly to think he would consciously waste time trying to eek out a few more dollars from his comic book collection in this fashion... the incremental money he might make from it seems too insignificant.

 

I'm not speaking specifically of Mr. Geppi, but you obviously don't understand the mechanations of greed. It's always about eeking out a few more bucks. How much you already have has nothing to do with it.

 

Red

 

That's an immensely jaded comment. Most greed is actually healthy... it drives our market economy and raises our standard of living. Some greed (the minority) leads one into unethical or criminal behavior. A smart business man worth tens of millions of dollars generally would not waste time pressing comics... the cost/benefit simply isn't there. If Mr.Geppi were doing this, his greed would border on being a mental disorder.

[LearnedHand]

disagree 99% with your suspicions about Geppi's hand on the the till at the Guide. (The last 1% is to allow for the possibility you suggest since I wasnt born yesterday...).

 

So then, your point is that you disagree with human nature. Got it. But did you ever wonder why we have a check and balance system of government? An SEC for the stock market? An FTC? An FCC? An FDA? Why restaurants and department stores don’t take IOUs? Etc., etc.? It’s because society recognizes that human nature is what it is, and rules help keep everyone honest - in this case, we have no set rules, so an explanation is being requested.

 

By the way, responding to people who don’t take the time to even read and understand my posts gets annoying sometimes. I never said Geppi’s hand was anywhere. I said that, in the context of human nature, the facts I provided create a suggestive appearance. As anyone knows, appearances aren’t always what they seem. I’m just an outsider using some known facts to form one logical conclusion (obviously, there can be another) - but I'm looking for Gemstone to provide that other conclusion as the facts don't suggest it.

 

Please offer some data or specifics from the last ten years he has owned Overstreet to back up your cynical claims of self-serving control over the Guide's direction, and pricing.

 

Here again, maybe you should take the time to actually read my post. And maybe you should look up the definition of cynical, as you’re obviously confused. I pointed at some facts: (a) the Guide’s data is far from accurate; (b) Geppi owns a huge comic book collection; © Geppi owns the Guide; and (d) the Guide is one very large market driver for the hobby.

 

In fact, I defy anyone to prove that the Guide’s values are, across the board, accurate (and I’ll give you a handicap – it doesn’t have to be this year’s values, it can be any year in the last 3). To any dealer who plans on responding that you have sold a few dozen books or more at exactly Guide, don’t bother – this is not an answer. Any serious answer must point to objective, actual, and comprehensive data for the entire hobby, or even any entire hobby segment.

 

Regarding self-dealing: Do you even understand the point of what you’re saying? An appearance of impropriety, on its face, is an issue. No consequence is necessary. That’s why any on-its-face appearance of self-dealing in almost any corporate setting is more likely to be investigated than any arm’s-length transaction. Again, the appearance is not outcome determinative there or here -just something that needs explanation.

 

And, others please back me up on this, while he has a whole warehouse full of comics, he does not have a market on all that many of the BEST stuff in the top grades...

 

In the abstract, you (of course) realize that if I own 20 Detective #29s in grades between F and VF+, and you own the Allentown copy (CGC 9.6 I believe), I will make orders of magnitdue more $$$ when I sell my 20 than you will make when selling your 1 copy? Especially if I've been sitting on mine since the 1970s-1980s - right?

 

 

On a personal note, I too have enjoyed some good interactions with Mr. Geppi. I see him as a hobby benefactor and have a lot of respect for him, so this is not personal. If you read my initial post, you’ll see that the point is that Gemstone has categorically done something that affects the hobby when it’s clear the hobby is very torn on the issue. Gemstone did this with no warning or explanation (and that there is also an appearance of potential impropriety) – and that the hobby deserves an explanation.

 

Redhook (thank you) has responded to your other comments.

[joe_collector]

A smart business man worth tens of millions of dollars generally would not waste time pressing comics... the cost/benefit simply isn't there. If Mr.Geppi were doing this, his greed would border on being a mental disorder.

 

Who in the world stated that Geppi was physically pressing his own books for profit? That's one really bizarre leap of logic.

 

If this is in fact collusion, then it would involve many of the big players, and while Geppi would not benefit from the pressing give, he'd definitely take something else away from the deal. Again, I'm not saying this happened, but I'm only stating it's incredibly simplistic to envision Geppi's ONLY possible gain being through physically pressing his own books.

 

Think about it, who stands to gain the most from a deletion of "pressing" from the official OS Guide, the bible of the hobby? And which of those have something to barter back with Geppi.

 

Start your list now....

[otherworldsj33]

LearnedHand, with arguments like that, you could represent me anytime. Ditto on just about everything you stated. Saved me some typing time.

[Aman619]

By the way, responding to people who don’t take the time to even read and understand my posts gets annoying sometimes.

 

On a personal note, I too have enjoyed some good interactions with Mr. Geppi. I see him as a hobby benefactor and have a lot of respect for him, so this is not personal. If you read my initial post, you’ll see that the point is that Gemstone has categorically done something that affects the hobby when it’s clear the hobby is very torn on the issue. Gemstone did this with no warning or explanation (and that there is also an appearance of potential impropriety) – and that the hobby deserves an explanation.

 

Redhook (thank you) has responded to your other comments.

 

it was so annoying to respond that you typed for 40 minutes doing so...

 

My point was to rebut your inclusion of Geppis personal hand in whatever moves Gemstone/Overstreet made in changing the definitions. I agree that what Gemstone/Overstreet did in this case was wrong, stupid, short-sighted, and handled very poorly, as usual. But you suggested or implied or made the case that Geppi was involved. That he made the decision; or okayed it; or sat in a meeting to discuss it; etc. On that point I disagree 99%. 99 because yes I DO agree with all your comments about human behaviour and the nature of greed.

 

As for the rest of the stuff you talked about, frankly I agree with you again! Responding to people who don’t take the time to even read and understand my posts gets annoying sometimes. ... so I wont respond to each one. I read your whole post (both of them.) Your first came across as an 'attack' on Geppi as being behind this strange move. My reply defended him, saying I dont believe it. Then you 'attacked' my reasoning, without understanding that I only disagreed with what I took to be your central point in regard to Geppi and how Gemstone functions.

 

Overstreet Publ. did this (as you know, Gemstone is MORE than just Bob's little oufit up there). Im pretty certain that Overstreet Guide is pretty autonomous from Geppis involvement except for some occasional warnings about increasing profitability!

[joe_collector]

But you suggested or implied or made the case that Geppi was involved. That he made the decision; or okayed it; or sat in a meeting to discuss it; etc. On that point I disagree 99%.

 

So you think Bob is the mastermind behind it, and that Geppi only puffed and never inhaled?