Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[Red Hook]

Wear a condom, I don't know where that boner's been

 

[Red Hook]

 

To answer your non-sequitur though, no, I wouldn't care if the book I paid $200 for was pressed up from a $100 copy.

 

 

Matt, meet October. October, meet Matt!

[Ze-man]

Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Do you think mid-grade CGC's aren't being reincarnated a grade or so higher in the press-for-profit game? And do you consider Ebay shoppers "only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community."?

 

Just asking. A hundred dollar CGC mid-grade book that's bumped a couple of grade notches and sells for $200 is, well, 100% profit, right? A double your money quick flip. Do you think crack-n-flip gamers scoff at those in favor of only going after the big-bang 9.8 lotto hits?

 

EXACTLY!

 

The Ebay market is worldwide, and full of wanna be collectors with money to throw about. A virtual treasure trove of unknowing Ebayers ready to pay top dollar for slabbed, or RAW books.

 

Since it is fairly easy and cheap to press a comic. Find a comic with "good pressing potential candiate features" and turn it from a CGC 6.5 Hulk #1 into a CGC 8.0 Hulk #1 lickity split. It seems obvious to me the potential for money making is built into Midgrades as well as HG's. Granted HG books command the best premium for NDP but that does not mean there isn't a vast amount of books that would also benefit from the same type of pressing.

 

Especially since CGC kills a book for the type of indent flaws that pressing can easily remove. And what is ever funnier is someone might unknowingly buy a pressed slabbed 8.0 comic , thinking it will make a good pressing candidate since it is only an 8.0..what a vicious circle.

 

So I say..YES.. the board is a bit top heavy in our concern over pressing. But the opposite can be said for the casual collector, or Ebayer. So it does need to be talked about in the hopes of moving it foward, however slow that progress might be.

 

 

 

Ze-

[october]

 

To answer your non-sequitur though, no, I wouldn't care if the book I paid $200 for was pressed up from a $100 copy.

 

 

Matt, meet October. October, meet Matt!

 

Sorry, unlike you guys I don't buy into the slab/high grade game.

 

If he has pressed Golden Age 5.0s or pressed bronze 8.5s I will happily buy them, but as you guys like to say regarding pressing: it's all about the $$$ and the dollars aren't there.

[october]

Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Do you think mid-grade CGC's aren't being reincarnated a grade or so higher in the press-for-profit game? And do you consider Ebay shoppers "only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community."?

 

Just asking. A hundred dollar CGC mid-grade book that's bumped a couple of grade notches and sells for $200 is, well, 100% profit, right? A double your money quick flip. Do you think crack-n-flip gamers scoff at those in favor of only going after the big-bang 9.8 lotto hits?

 

EXACTLY!

 

The Ebay market is worldwide, and full of wanna be collectors with money to throw about. A virtual treasure trove of unknowing Ebayers ready to pay top dollar for slabbed, or RAW books.

 

Since it is fairly easy and cheap to press a comic. Find a comic with "good pressing potential candiate features" and turn it from a CGC 6.5 Hulk #1 into a CGC 8.0 Hulk #1 lickity split. It seems obvious to me the potential for money making is built into Midgrades as well as HG's. Granted HG books command the best premium for NDP but that does not mean there isn't a vast amount of books that would also benefit from the same type of pressing.

 

Especially since CGC kills a book for the type of indent flaws that pressing can easily remove. And what is ever funnier is someone might unknowingly buy a pressed slabbed 8.0 comic , thinking it will make a good pressing candidate since it is only an 8.0..what a vicious circle.

 

So I say..YES.. the board is a bit top heavy in our concern over pressing. But the opposite can be said for the casual collector, or Ebayer. So it does need to be talked about in the hopes of moving it foward, however slow that progress might be.

 

 

 

Ze-

 

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

[Red Hook]

 

 

Sorry, unlike you guys I don't buy into the slab/high grade game.

 

Man, you have seriously over-estimated my buying power!!

[Davenport]

it's all about the $$$ and the dollars aren't there.

 

JIM 112 as a CGC 6.5 $138

 

JIM 112 as a CGC 7.5 $240

[Ze-man]

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

 

 

Ok Andy , I will bite. Exactly what point was it I was missing? I am not trying to be a smartarse, but when I re read your post.. I still got the same thing from it.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Please cut down a few trees for me , so I can see the forest as you do. I understand you dont chase HG's, and are in the loop since you hang here. But what about the others out there who dont? Those people dont have have a dog in the fight becasue they are not even aware a fight is taking place. As example, I cannot see anyone not wanting to at least know the book they are buying was once 2 grades lower and $150 less expensive only weeks earlier. Arm them with what we know, and let them make up their own mind.

 

 

Ze-

[blazingbob]

So basically you are going to bring up the HOG's again?

 

HOG stands for Heritage Owned Garbage and follows the if it didn't sell in this grade we press it and find a grade that it will sell at?

[Red Hook]

it's all about the $$$ and the dollars aren't there.

 

JIM 112 as a CGC 6.5 $138

 

JIM 112 as a CGC 7.5 $240

 

You are good, man. Really good.

 

If you can volume-press and automate your submissions....you got it made!

 

I just wanna' say.....Matt is technically playing by The Rules established by CGC. The goal is to make every single collector aware of The Rules. Then the buyer can decide if he wants to play by them.

[rob_react]

 

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

 

There's also the plain fact that graded books represent an infinitesimally small percentage of the back issue market. Someone like Flying-Donut has likely sold 50x more raw books in the CGC era than the total number of graded books sold by the entire forum in that same time period. Chuck probably moves the more raw books in a month than the total number of graded books in existence.

[FFB]

If you want a specific example, there's the Human Torch #1(#2) that Marnin used to own, where Susan supposedly did the work herself and then did not spot restoration during the Sotheby's auction, but CGC did when it got slabbed. Borock mentioned that one specifically.

 

He did? Where?

 

I like that....."supposedly"....so it's actually anecdotal. That's good stuff to use to belittle someone's reputation.

 

 

I know there are others, but don't have specifics since I never owned the books.

 

 

...but don't let that stop you from presenting it as fact.

 

Okay.....that's pretty lame.

 

 

I am sure that if you get on your soapbox and proclaim that it never happened, some people will be happy to point out others. Maybe you could start by asking Zillatoy which books (plural) he was referring to here:

 

I'm not doing your homework for you. You're the one that's presenting it as gospel.

 

So actually, you have a pretty vague picture of all this, when it comes down to it. Not exactly a reign of missed restoration examples. And this all happened...how long ago?

 

 

 

Of course it's anecdotal! Was there ever any doubt about that? That doesn't mean it wasn't true, does it? And, of course, nothing you've posted speaks to the original issue I was talking about -- which is, if Susan missed color touch and glue on books she was inspecting for Sotheby's, how can she detect pressing with any reliability? Just because she says it doesn't make it true -- or are you simply willing to accept her word as gospel? I suppose we all need to believe in heroes -- we're comic book geeks after all.

 

As for how long ago she missed the restoration, Sotheby's auctions ran from 1991 to 2000, which I believe was the last one. But you already knew that.

[Ze-man]

To be clear, what exactly are we talking about here now?

 

 

Disclosure still, right?

 

Or what books might or not make money with a good pressing?

 

Or what dealers might sell pressed books raw vs slabbed.

 

Or mid grade collectors dont care about pressing.

 

Or how Susan missed some resto once?

 

Or why boner got through the filter?

 

My head hurts again.

[Red Hook]

Weak.

[FFB]

Weak.

 

I liked you better when I paid no attention to you. I think I'm going to get back to that, since you're back in playground mode.

[october]

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

 

 

Ok Andy , I will bite. Exactly what point was it I was missing? I am not trying to be a smartarse, but when I re read your post.. I still got the same thing from it.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Please cut down a few trees for me , so I can see the forest as you do. I understand you dont chase HG's, and are in the loop since you hang here. But what about the others out there who dont? Those people dont have have a dog in the fight becasue they are not even aware a fight is taking place. As example, I cannot see anyone not wanting to at least know the book they are buying was once 2 grades lower and $150 less expensive only weeks earlier. Arm them with what we know, and let them make up their own mind.

 

 

Ze-

 

My orginal point and post, which of course got diluted, was that pressing only has an effect on a small segment of the collecting community. Most people don't collect high grade, slabs, or big dollar books. That's it. Why people felt the need to disagree with that simple (and obvious) statement is beyond me.

[october]

 

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

 

There's also the plain fact that graded books represent an infinitesimally small percentage of the back issue market. Someone like Flying-Donut has likely sold 50x more raw books in the CGC era than the total number of graded books sold by the entire forum in that same time period. Chuck probably moves the more raw books in a month than the total number of graded books in existence.

 

Exactly. I don't think the thousands of guys buying raw 4.0s in the $5-50 range from Donut or Mile High need concern themselves with pressing.

[Red Hook]

 

Of course it's anecdotal! Was there ever any doubt about that?

 

Yes. Did Borock spill this to you during one of the raucous CGC banquets? Or on the boards. Just curious.

 

That doesn't mean it wasn't true, does it?

 

You try that line of reasoning in court?

 

And, of course, nothing you've posted speaks to the original issue I was talking about -- which is, if Susan missed color touch and glue on books she was inspecting for Sotheby's, how can she detect pressing with any reliability?

 

By that logic, CGC should never again be trusted to run a restoration check ever again. That is, assuming, you can prove she actually missed color touch on a single book. I'm not saying she didn't, just waiting to see evidence of more than an isolated incident.

 

Actually, I haven't seen evidence of the isolated evidence, yet.

 

Just because she says it doesn't make it true -- or are you simply willing to accept her word as gospel? I suppose we all need to believe in heroes -- we're comic book geeks after all.

 

How many times do I have to repeat the fact that I don't believe Susan is infallible? But I should believe you, right? Anecdotally speaking, of course.

 

As for how long ago she missed the restoration, Sotheby's auctions ran from 1991 to 2000, which I believe was the last one. But you already knew that.

 

That's not what I asked. I asked what were the dates of the cases of missed restoration? Are you a better lawyer in 2006 than you were in 1991? Or 1993? Or 1995? Or 1997? Or 2000? Are you going to get better?

 

Wait....how long have you been a lawyer?

[Red Hook]

Exactly. I don't think the thousands of guys buying raw 4.0s in the $5-50 range from Donut or Mile High need concern themselves with pressing.

 

Who said you did?

[Ze-man]

Way to miss my point guys. You are all so eager to pick apart little semantical flaws or find loopholes that you miss the forest for the trees. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, that's the board's bread and butter.

 

 

....or can more than a tiny fraction of the collecting community afford the Hulk 1 in your example?

 

 

Ok Andy , I will bite. Exactly what point was it I was missing? I am not trying to be a smartarse, but when I re read your post.. I still got the same thing from it.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Please cut down a few trees for me , so I can see the forest as you do. I understand you dont chase HG's, and are in the loop since you hang here. But what about the others out there who dont? Those people dont have have a dog in the fight becasue they are not even aware a fight is taking place. As example, I cannot see anyone not wanting to at least know the book they are buying was once 2 grades lower and $150 less expensive only weeks earlier. Arm them with what we know, and let them make up their own mind.

 

 

Ze-

 

My orginal point and post, which of course got diluted, was that pressing only has an effect on a small segment of the collecting community. Most people don't collect high grade, slabs, or big dollar books. That's it. Why people felt the need to disagree with that simple (and obvious) statement is beyond me.

 

Quite frankly because pressing DOES impact more then just the HG market. To what % I have no idea. The point Davenport made about the Midgrade market being susceptible to pressing was what I was agreeing with. Even if it is a very small % it does not reduce its importance even if those being affected by it are still unaware of what is going on.

 

And while your statement was simple and obvious, it is our right to disagree with it.

 

Right?