Question On Page Quality

[drbanner]

The micro-chamber paper combined with the bright light of a scanner makes the translucency effect worse than it actually is. This was discussed in great detail many moons ago here on the board, and I did an experiment with an X-men 10 where I scanned it once with the white micro-chamber paper, and again with black paper. The difference was remarkable!!

 

I'll try to dig up the scans this evening...

 

Guess which has the micro-chamber behind the cover?

 

[MutantKeys]

The second one??

[FFB]

But then again, look at what is considered "white" pages.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Doc-Savage-5-CGC-9-6...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

The paper in the cover is converted and transparent. The paper just doesn't match up with either the grade or the page quality here.

 

Personally, this paper conversion is a real turn off, and as near as I can tell, is in no way calculated into the grade. It's a definite indicator of poor storage conditions.

 

Can you explain this last bit a little more (particularly where you state, "it's a definate indicator of poor storage conditions")? I have many books with really vivid and bright cover colors, but the whites on the cover have a good degree of transparency.

 

In fact, I have noticed that this is the case so often that I like the white parts of the cover having some transparency because it seems to correlate with incredible color saturation.

 

Can anyone chime in on this?

 

Well, all I can say is I live in a dry area with ideal storage conditions, and my books from 30-40 years ago do not have any translucency. I'm not talking transparency from the original paper quality. I'm talking hazy, sour milk paper.

 

When I get books from other parts of the country, some of these books are translucent - the book's pages/covers suffer from some sort of paper conversion that I assume is poor storage conditions - humidity, pollutants, etc.

 

The translucency is usually the result of oil from the inks on the interior pages migrating into the cover stock, which absorbs it more readily than the interior paper does. It's not something that is necessarily storage-dependent, although I would guess that it would happen more readily in a warmer climate. That is just a guess though.

 

On the plus side, the presence of that oil is a good indication that the cover has never been solvent cleaned.

[lizards2]

Yes

 

 

Not to say it is the sole reason for this effect. I too was bothered years ago by what the paper did when viewing a books cover. It has been brought up more then a few times. I imagine under bright lights the micro paper has a similar effect the scanner does.

 

If somebody who has a scanner and wants to deslab a few books with this problem to conduct a before and after test I think it would be of intererest.

 

I think you are forgetting the books you speak of are all from the "Filet o Fish Pedigree" The OO wiped all the books down with a fried fish patty.

 

 

 

Ze-

That's exactly what they look like! Must have been some kind of preservation scheme. You must have some of the books from that pedigree too?

[lizards2]

But then again, look at what is considered "white" pages.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Doc-Savage-5-CGC-9-6...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

The paper in the cover is converted and transparent. The paper just doesn't match up with either the grade or the page quality here.

 

Personally, this paper conversion is a real turn off, and as near as I can tell, is in no way calculated into the grade. It's a definite indicator of poor storage conditions.

 

Can you explain this last bit a little more (particularly where you state, "it's a definate indicator of poor storage conditions")? I have many books with really vivid and bright cover colors, but the whites on the cover have a good degree of transparency.

 

In fact, I have noticed that this is the case so often that I like the white parts of the cover having some transparency because it seems to correlate with incredible color saturation.

 

Can anyone chime in on this?

 

Well, all I can say is I live in a dry area with ideal storage conditions, and my books from 30-40 years ago do not have any translucency. I'm not talking transparency from the original paper quality. I'm talking hazy, sour milk paper.

 

When I get books from other parts of the country, some of these books are translucent - the book's pages/covers suffer from some sort of paper conversion that I assume is poor storage conditions - humidity, pollutants, etc.

 

The translucency is usually the result of oil from the inks on the interior pages migrating into the cover stock, which absorbs it more readily than the interior paper does. It's not something that is necessarily storage-dependent, although I would guess that it would happen more readily in a warmer climate. That is just a guess though.

 

On the plus side, the presence of that oil is a good indication that the cover has never been solvent cleaned.

 

Kind of odd that the micro-chamber paper mimics the appearance of the very thing it was placed there to prevent....,

[namisgr]

Kind of odd that the micro-chamber paper mimics the appearance of the very thing it was placed there to prevent....,

 

That's not quite so. When oils seep into the front cover, they not only increase its translucency, but also add a distinct yellow tinge, especially to the middle of the cover. The microchamber paper should limit the further absorption of oils by the covers. Indeed, for this reason I am surprised CGC would entertain the notion of replacing the front and back cover microchamber papers with one at the centerfold.

[lizards2]

Kind of odd that the micro-chamber paper mimics the appearance of the very thing it was placed there to prevent....,

 

That's not quite so. When oils seep into the front cover, they not only increase its translucency, but also add a distinct yellow tinge, especially to the middle of the cover. The microchamber paper should limit the further absorption of oils by the covers. Indeed, for this reason I am surprised CGC would entertain the notion of replacing the front and back cover microchamber papers with one at the centerfold.

 

Well, here we are, full circle. That was my whole point - this book

http://cgi.ebay.com/Doc-Savage-5-CGC-9-6...1QQcmdZViewItem

and several I own that look just like it, have that yellowish, translucent tinge. I still think it's mostly an ugly aging factor, but I'm being told that it's just the micro-chamber paper. I'll have to admit, the micro-chamber paper does appear to accentuate the translucency. However, the back cover of the Doc Savage looks plain old uniformly yellow to me - not the white, as advertised. Maybe I just need to adjust my browser.

[tth2]

But then again, look at what is considered "white" pages.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Doc-Savage-5-CGC-9-6...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

The paper in the cover is converted and transparent. The paper just doesn't match up with either the grade or the page quality here.

 

Personally, this paper conversion is a real turn off, and as near as I can tell, is in no way calculated into the grade. It's a definite indicator of poor storage conditions.

 

Can you explain this last bit a little more (particularly where you state, "it's a definate indicator of poor storage conditions")? I have many books with really vivid and bright cover colors, but the whites on the cover have a good degree of transparency.

 

In fact, I have noticed that this is the case so often that I like the white parts of the cover having some transparency because it seems to correlate with incredible color saturation.

 

Can anyone chime in on this?

 

Well, all I can say is I live in a dry area with ideal storage conditions, and my books from 30-40 years ago do not have any translucency. I'm not talking transparency from the original paper quality. I'm talking hazy, sour milk paper.

 

When I get books from other parts of the country, some of these books are translucent - the book's pages/covers suffer from some sort of paper conversion that I assume is poor storage conditions - humidity, pollutants, etc.

 

The translucency is usually the result of oil from the inks on the interior pages migrating into the cover stock, which absorbs it more readily than the interior paper does. It's not something that is necessarily storage-dependent, although I would guess that it would happen more readily in a warmer climate. That is just a guess though.

 

On the plus side, the presence of that oil is a good indication that the cover has never been solvent cleaned.

Exactly right. It's as much about quality of the paper stock as quality of preservation.

 

Here's some info I received from a very knowledgeable collector who's a real page-quality fanatic, responding to a post I had made asking (i) why SA DC covers never seemed to have the yellow oily appearance that many SA Marvel covers did and (ii) why some of my SA DC books had blazing white covers and yet were identified as having C-OW pages.

 

If you've seen a lot of DC giants and annuals, you've probably seen a situation where two different quality of paper stocks were used in a single comic. One half of the book will be white and the other half will be Cr-Ow.

 

The reason that the Cr0w copies still have white covers is because of the lower page quality resulting in less transfer of oils to the cover and less translucency and less of a yellow-layer. Though the covers appear "whiter" than books with white pages, they are not. The oil can actually be removed from the cover -- when it is, you'll find it whiter than than the copy with worse pages. (To do this is restoration and does require dis-assembly of the book.)

 

The Marvels have thinner cover stock with less sizing and are therefore more susceptible to the oil transfer. They tend to have fewer issues with inconsistent page quality though books like ST110 and Avengers4 are both generally poor.