Grading structure or paper too?

[ciorac]

Had an interesting discussion with a fellow board member about grading over the past couple of days. In short, we disagree on how to grade a comic book and assess its value. I would welcome others opinions on this topic.

 

He believes there are three basic elements to the process:

 

1. The structural grade of the book

2. The page quality of the book

3. The price of the book

 

In other words he would grade a two books both VG, one with tan pages and one with white pages. He does not believe you downgrade the numeric grade of the book for its page quality.

 

I disagree.

 

I think a book should be graded in its totality. If two books look roughly the same when viewing the front and back covers, you are not done grading. You must open the book and see what the pages tell you. If they are white, then I grade the book higher than the one with tan pages.

 

Perhaps I have been going about this the wrong way all these years.

 

So if I am wrong, then the cover grades are all that matters? And page quality only makes the book more valuable, not a higher grade. When did that start?

 

[FFB]

Had an interesting discussion with a fellow board member about grading over the past couple of days. In short, we disagree on how to grade a comic book and assess its value. I would welcome others opinions on this topic.

 

He believes there are three basic elements to the process:

 

1. The structural grade of the book

2. The page quality of the book

3. The price of the book

 

In other words he would grade a two books both VG, one with tan pages and one with white pages. He does not believe you downgrade the numeric grade of the book for its page quality.

 

I disagree.

 

I think a book should be graded in its totality. If two books look roughly the same when viewing the front and back covers, you are not done grading. You must open the book and see what the pages tell you. If they are white, then I grade the book higher than the one with tan pages.

 

Perhaps I have been going about this the wrong way all these years.

 

So if I am wrong, then the cover grades are all that matters? And page quality only makes the book more valuable, not a higher grade. When did that start?

 

 

I agree with you, but I think it's the general freshness of the book as a whole, including not just the interior pages, but also the cover. But yes, page quality plays a role in the overall grade. All other things being equal, the fresher copy is a higher grade IMO.

[tth2]

Had an interesting discussion with a fellow board member about grading over the past couple of days. In short, we disagree on how to grade a comic book and assess its value. I would welcome others opinions on this topic.

 

He believes there are three basic elements to the process:

 

1. The structural grade of the book

2. The page quality of the book

3. The price of the book

 

In other words he would grade a two books both VG, one with tan pages and one with white pages. He does not believe you downgrade the numeric grade of the book for its page quality.

 

I disagree.

 

I think a book should be graded in its totality. If two books look roughly the same when viewing the front and back covers, you are not done grading. You must open the book and see what the pages tell you. If they are white, then I grade the book higher than the one with tan pages.

 

Perhaps I have been going about this the wrong way all these years.

 

So if I am wrong, then the cover grades are all that matters? And page quality only makes the book more valuable, not a higher grade. When did that start?

 

To me, structure is structure, and page quality is page quality. I believe in assigning a book a structural grade, based purely on structural defects, and then noting its page quality completely separately. For example, I don't agree that a book with cream or tan pages couldn't be a 9.8 structurally. Nor do I believe that a book with a bunch of creases on the spine should get a higher structural grade because it has super white pages.

 

Robert Roter was the first dealer I remember consistently setting out a structural grade and page quality rating, so I don't think it's a new phenomenon and certainly didn't start with CGC.

 

Also, I wanted to point out that structural grade is not determined only by the covers. You have to look inside because tears or creases in the interior pages would knock the structural grade of a book down too (although they don't weigh nearly as much as defects on the cover).

[Comicdey]

Grading is forever subjective.

 

Any one else want to throw their opinions in the ring.

[trevorlsmith]

At least with slabbed books it only makes sense to have a structural grade separate and apart from page quality.

 

Suppose you have two books that are structurally identical, say 9.4, but book 1 has white pages and book 2 has tan pages. I'd prefer to see 9.4 attached to both books and make the determination myself how much the value is reduced by the inferior page qualiy of book 2.

 

If it's not done in that fashion, then you have a 9.4 white paged book and a 9.0 tan paged book. This would defeat some of the purpose of trading/selling online or sight unseen because you would need to personally handle (or at the very least have clear hi-res scans of) the book with the 9.0 label to make the determination that it is structurally a 9.4. And that doesn't even consider the fact that interior defects are impossible to see once slabbed.

 

It's somewhat analagous to the green label arguments that I've seen in past threads where some people would prefer to elimate them altogether and just put all books in blue labels with a grade that factors in the major defect that would have otherwise made it a green label. I prefer the current method cgc utilizes where the grade of the book, had the defect not been present, is given and the defect is noted. This way I can make my own determination of how much value is diminished when an otherwise structurally 9.0 book has a coupon clipped for example.

[ciorac]

Had an interesting discussion with a fellow board member about grading over the past couple of days. In short, we disagree on how to grade a comic book and assess its value. I would welcome others opinions on this topic.

 

He believes there are three basic elements to the process:

 

1. The structural grade of the book

2. The page quality of the book

3. The price of the book

 

In other words he would grade a two books both VG, one with tan pages and one with white pages. He does not believe you downgrade the numeric grade of the book for its page quality.

 

I disagree.

 

I think a book should be graded in its totality. If two books look roughly the same when viewing the front and back covers, you are not done grading. You must open the book and see what the pages tell you. If they are white, then I grade the book higher than the one with tan pages.

 

Perhaps I have been going about this the wrong way all these years.

 

So if I am wrong, then the cover grades are all that matters? And page quality only makes the book more valuable, not a higher grade. When did that start?

 

To me, structure is structure, and page quality is page quality. I believe in assigning a book a structural grade, based purely on structural defects, and then noting its page quality completely separately. For example, I don't agree that a book with cream or tan pages couldn't be a 9.8 structurally. Nor do I believe that a book with a bunch of creases on the spine should get a higher structural grade because it has super white pages.

 

Robert Roter was the first dealer I remember consistently setting out a structural grade and page quality rating, so I don't think it's a new phenomenon and certainly didn't start with CGC.

 

Also, I wanted to point out that structural grade is not determined only by the covers. You have to look inside because tears or creases in the interior pages would knock the structural grade of a book down too (although they don't weigh nearly as much as defects on the cover).

 

Fine, but the major part of the book's structure is the pages. Otherwise it is just covers. So I take into account the entire comic when assigning a grade. If a book has lower page quality, I grade it lower. I don't think Roter was simply mentioning the paper color as an aside. I watched him grade in person many times, and he included the quality of the pages in his overall grade. But made note of it in his listing for the book. And in many cases raised the price for white paged golden age. I knew Robert very well back in the 90's, so I can speak with some authority about his techniques. If you know him, tell him I said hello, and remind him of "Scores".

 

[tth2]

Fine, but the major part of the book's structure is the pages. Otherwise it is just covers. So I take into account the entire comic when assigning a grade. If a book has lower page quality, I grade it lower. I don't think Roter was simply mentioning the paper color as an aside. I watched him grade in person many times, and he included the quality of the pages in his overall grade. But made note of it in his listing for the book. And in many cases raised the price for white paged golden age. I knew Robert very well back in the 90's, so I can speak with some authority about his techniques. If you know him, tell him I said hello, and remind him of "Scores".

 

Me and Robert don't get along so well these days.

 

I hear what you're saying, and I understand why people do factor in page quality in their overall grade. But if CGC does it, then they're double-penalizing a book. By which I mean if they take a book that's otherwise a 9.4 and knock it down to 8.5 because it has tan pages, and then note tan pages on the slab, not only are people going to value it as a 8.5, but then they are going to make an additional deduction from value because of the tan pages!

[THE_BEYONDER]

Without notation, factoring PQ & QP into the structural grade would make the assigned grade completely useless.

[divad]

You're all right . . . and simultaneously . . . all wrong

 

The notation of the page quality separately is what it is - a comment on the color of the pages relative to the overall gradient of page color from tan to white. It is essential to note, precisely because it is a separate factor that can and should be independently noted.

 

That being said, one cannot ignore page quality in grading the structure of a book. It is an integral part of each book's structure (as noted by ciorac and ffb). It is the totality of the book's qualities that give rise to the numerical grade, taking into consideration various limitations to, and deductions from, absolute grades based on recognized defects, and the relative severity thereof.

 

The most common error made by graders is to grade one way or the other, either additive or subtractive, ignoring one of these two essential methodologies.

 

As to b's comment, it has some recognizable merit, but needs to be articulated better.

[trevorlsmith]

Completely agree. What you said in one sentence is exactly what I tried to say in 3 paragraphs. I wasted my time, and law school was supposed to teach me to be concise...

 

Without notation, factoring PQ & QP into the structural grade would make the assigned grade completely useless.

[ciorac]

You're all right . . . and simultaneously . . . all wrong

 

The notation of the page quality separately is what it is - a comment on the color of the pages relative to the overall gradient of page color from tan to white. It is essential to note, precisely because it is a separate factor that can and should be independently noted.

 

That being said, one cannot ignore page quality in grading the structure of a book. It is an integral part of each book's structure (as noted by ciorac and ffb). It is the totality of the book's qualities that give rise to the numerical grade, taking into consideration various limitations to, and deductions from, absolute grades based on recognized defects, and the relative severity thereof.

 

The most common error made by graders is to grade one way or the other, either additive or subtractive, ignoring one of these two essential methodologies.

 

As to b's comment, it has some recognizable merit, but needs to be articulated better.

 

I believe the page quality notation on a CGC slab is just that, a page quality notation . This certainly affects desirability and potentially price. I don't care if a book's covers are near mint, if it has tan, ugly pages I am not going to grade it a 9.4 and qualify that by saying "tan pages". I think that is rubbish. That's just my deal. Ugly paper, trimming and pages missing are the three unforgivable sins in my eyes.

[Comicdey]

Is this discussion not going exactly as expected.....

[FFB]

You're all right . . . and simultaneously . . . all wrong

 

The notation of the page quality separately is what it is - a comment on the color of the pages relative to the overall gradient of page color from tan to white. It is essential to note, precisely because it is a separate factor that can and should be independently noted.

 

That being said, one cannot ignore page quality in grading the structure of a book. It is an integral part of each book's structure (as noted by ciorac and ffb). It is the totality of the book's qualities that give rise to the numerical grade, taking into consideration various limitations to, and deductions from, absolute grades based on recognized defects, and the relative severity thereof.

 

The most common error made by graders is to grade one way or the other, either additive or subtractive, ignoring one of these two essential methodologies.

 

As to b's comment, it has some recognizable merit, but needs to be articulated better.

 

I believe the page quality notation on a CGC slab is just that, a page quality notation . This certainly affects desirability and potentially price. I don't care if a book's covers are near mint, if it has tan, ugly pages I am not going to grade it a 9.4 and qualify that by saying "tan pages". I think that is rubbish. That's just my deal. Ugly paper, trimming and pages missing are the three unforgivable sins in my eyes.

 

The thing is, if page quality and structural grade are entirely separate and distinct, then a NM/MT 9.8 book should be able to have brittle or slightly brittle pages. Or brown pages, even. Yet no one would grade such a book 9.8.

 

I don't think that page quality makes as much of a difference as creasing if you're talking about the difference between off white and white pages. I don't think off white pages will keep a book out of 9.8, for example. But if I've got a book that is, structurally, on the cusp between 9.2 and 9.4, but the book has blindingly white pages, I am grading the book 9.4. If the book has ugly tan pages, it gets dinged down to VF+ 8.5/VF 8.0 or so. That's just me.

[tth2]

The thing is, if page quality and structural grade are entirely separate and distinct, then a NM/MT 9.8 book should be able to have brittle or slightly brittle pages. Or brown pages, even. Yet no one would grade such a book 9.8.

I would. If the brown pages are perfectly smooth with no creases, nicks, dings, tears, etc., I would give it a structural 9.8 grade. I would also note that it has brown pages.

[FFB]

The thing is, if page quality and structural grade are entirely separate and distinct, then a NM/MT 9.8 book should be able to have brittle or slightly brittle pages. Or brown pages, even. Yet no one would grade such a book 9.8.

I would. If the brown pages are perfectly smooth with no creases, nicks, dings, tears, etc., I would give it a structural 9.8 grade. I would also note that it has brown pages.

 

OK, let me rephrase. No one IN AMERICA would do it.

[rjpb]

You're all right . . . and simultaneously . . . all wrong

 

The notation of the page quality separately is what it is - a comment on the color of the pages relative to the overall gradient of page color from tan to white. It is essential to note, precisely because it is a separate factor that can and should be independently noted.

 

That being said, one cannot ignore page quality in grading the structure of a book. It is an integral part of each book's structure (as noted by ciorac and ffb). It is the totality of the book's qualities that give rise to the numerical grade, taking into consideration various limitations to, and deductions from, absolute grades based on recognized defects, and the relative severity thereof.

 

The most common error made by graders is to grade one way or the other, either additive or subtractive, ignoring one of these two essential methodologies.

 

As to b's comment, it has some recognizable merit, but needs to be articulated better.

 

 

Well put!

[tth2]

The thing is, if page quality and structural grade are entirely separate and distinct, then a NM/MT 9.8 book should be able to have brittle or slightly brittle pages. Or brown pages, even. Yet no one would grade such a book 9.8.

I would. If the brown pages are perfectly smooth with no creases, nicks, dings, tears, etc., I would give it a structural 9.8 grade. I would also note that it has brown pages.

 

OK, let me rephrase. No one IN AMERICA would do it.

 

All kidding aside, how do you address the double penalty (or double bonus) issue I raised? If a significantly reduced grade already reflects the brown pages, and yet, per market practice, potential buyers then further lower their bid prices because of the separate brown pages notation, isn`t a book`s value being overly penalized?

 

The same goes for the scenario going the other way, such as the tweener book that gets a 9.4 instead of a 9.2 because of its white pages, and now gets valued as a 9.4 plus perhaps gets an additional boost in its price because of the white pages notation.

 

As Beyonder said, unless there is some sort of description on the label that clarifies how much the book`s "overall" grade was reduced/increased by the PQ, the grade will be misleading leading to the distorted valuations I describe above.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The thing is, if page quality and structural grade are entirely separate and distinct, then a NM/MT 9.8 book should be able to have brittle or slightly brittle pages. Or brown pages, even. Yet no one would grade such a book 9.8.

I would. If the brown pages are perfectly smooth with no creases, nicks, dings, tears, etc., I would give it a structural 9.8 grade. I would also note that it has brown pages.

 

OK, let me rephrase. No one IN AMERICA would do it.

 

All kidding aside, how do you address the double penalty (or double bonus) issue I raised? If a significantly reduced grade already reflects the brown pages, and yet, per market practice, potential buyers then further lower their bid prices because of the separate brown pages notation, isn`t a book`s value being overly penalized?

 

The same goes for the scenario going the other way, such as the tweener book that gets a 9.4 instead of a 9.2 because of its white pages, and now gets valued as a 9.4 plus perhaps gets an additional boost in its price because of the white pages notation.

 

As Beyonder said, unless there is some sort of description on the label that clarifies how much the book`s "overall" grade was reduced/increased by the PQ, the grade will be misleading leading to the distorted valuations I describe above.

 

CGC's "QP Cut-Off" is a perfect example of what you're describing. Remember that HULK 181 that they graded a 9.6 even though SB himself said it would be a 9.8/9.9 if not for the extreme miswrap?

 

The owner of that book got completely robbed. Instead of the book being seen by potential buyers as a "fugly 9.8/9.9"....it was instead a "fugly 9.6" due to the absence of any notation.

 

In that specific case, we're talking about a potential loss in the area of 10K if assigned a 9.8 grade.......and possibly 4X that amount if assigned a 9.9

 

The absence of a notation explaining the "QP cut-off" is borderline criminal.

[ciorac]

I don't think that page quality makes as much of a difference as creasing if you're talking about the difference between off white and white pages. I don't think off white pages will keep a book out of 9.8, for example. But if I've got a book that is, structurally, on the cusp between 9.2 and 9.4, but the book has blindingly white pages, I am grading the book 9.4. If the book has ugly tan pages, it gets dinged down to VF+ 8.5/VF 8.0 or so. That's just me.

 

Exactly! I agree totally.

[ciorac]

Is this discussion not going exactly as expected.....

 

Actually, about as I expected.