How does this get an Blue label?

[skybolt]

As long as we're discussing blue vs. purple labels, what amount of color touch would still get you a universal grade?. Are a few dots vs. shading in allowed for certain GA books to receive the blue label designation?!

 

For instance, I've seen books in blue instead of purple holders, but have the exact same notation "very small amount of color touch on cover". "How small" is really the question. Here's one of my examples that received a PLOD:

 

<img src="http://img301.echo.cx/img301/4628/zago2rcgc92l28ab.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

<img src="http://img301.echo.cx/img301/6165/zago2rcgc92f1dn.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

I seem to recall hearing and/or reading that the litmus test is whether the CT bumped up the apparent grade of the book more than one grade. If it didn't, then they downgrade for the CT one grade level and give it a blue label with the notation. If it did bump the grade more than one level, they PLOD the book and give it the full apparent grade.

 

Just for information, I believe the color touch is at the lower right hand corner.

[Filter81]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

P.S. Has anyone ever met someone who was in the market for a copy of ASM#1, and who was so stupid that if he were looking at this particular book, wouldn't understand what he was buying based on what the label notes say? I haven't and can't imagine such a person exists. I've seen comic collectors who are that stupid before, but they're usually the guys who are looking for the rattiest copy they can find just to fill out a run -- and they usually don't care if their FR copy has a little color touch or five extra staples or whatever.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

In the case of Batman 1, yes, but as far as ASM 1, no.

 

Dr. Banner,

 

I don't know if that was meant to be a joke or what, but I can honestly say that is in my opinion the single most offensive post I have ever read on these boards in my several years as a member. In my case there were no label notes for me to misinterpret. I bought a book from a "reputable" source that was supposed to be complete. They even went so far as to describe rice paper reinforcement to the centerfold, leading me to believe any and all restoration was disclosed. The book in question represented roughly 3% of the money I spent on that particular invoice, and I did not have an hour to go over the scans in detail. I made a quick decision based on the information I had available. (And I have to tell you, typically when I buy a book in fair condition, the first thing I do isn't to check the back cover scan for defects, as it doesn't usually matter.)

 

This is the only thing I will type in this thread regardless of the responses received (assuming there are any) because I don't want to turn this thread into something it is not. But all I can say, is if you are ever unfortunate enough to lose $1000 because a dealer fails to disclose to you that a book is incomplete, I hope you decide to post about it on these message boards so we can all point out how "stupid" you are as well.

[drbanner]

But all I can say, is if you are ever unfortunate enough to lose $1000 because a dealer fails to disclose to you that a book is incomplete, I hope you decide to post about it on these message boards so we can all point out how "stupid" you are as well.

 

Don't hold your breath...

[Ze-man]

or is what you're really after the stigmatization caused by the purple label? Would you feel better if the book were an 8.0 Slight (A) PLOD?

 

In a nutshell, yes.

 

What if the buyer is not savy. What if they do not even know how a book was supposed to be stitched? Some people do not know to even look. We have all seen books with staples all over the place before straight from the factory.

 

If a buyer sees a Purple label, they run away in most cases.

They see a Blue label with a possible downgrade(which is unknown exactly how much was taken off) Many times that is all they see.

 

Why this book got a Blue and another gets a Purple is what I guess bothers me. To me Purple labels are not bad. It is an easy way to tell if a book has had work done to it. And you can make up your own mind if what was done to the book is something you can live with. A Blue label with notes on it is fine,if you know to look closely. But alot of times people only see the Blue Label, and dont read everything on it.

 

 

I gotta run. Been fun

 

Ze-

 

If you have a buyer who is that naive/ignorant and yet has thousands of dollars burning a hole in his pocket and a jones for Amazing Spider-Man, he is going to make bad decisions -- whether on this book or on any number of other books that would be far worse buying decisions than this one might be. I do not think it is incumbent upon CGC to cater to the stupidest collector on the market, nor do I think the overly paternalistic attitude toward such collectors is justified. We all had to learn lessons the hard way. To me, it seems to be the cost of ignorance for these mythical rich/incredibly stupid collectors that some people seem so hell bent on protecting. A responsible person wouldn't invest thousands of dollars on collectibles without having some rudimentary knowledge. Those who do cannot expect everyone else in the industry to protect them from making bad decisions.

 

P.S. Has anyone ever met someone who was in the market for a copy of ASM#1, and who was so stupid that if he were looking at this particular book, wouldn't understand what he was buying based on what the label notes say? I haven't and can't imagine such a person exists. I've seen comic collectors who are that stupid before, but they're usually the guys who are looking for the rattiest copy they can find just to fill out a run -- and they usually don't care if their FR copy has a little color touch or five extra staples or whatever.

 

I was under the assumption we were talking in general terms Scott.

 

Nevermind.

 

Ze-

 

Then why did you ask the question "What if the buyer is not savvy?"

 

Honestly?.. because I thought we were having some sort of online discussion.

 

That last post of yours was way bitter Scott. I cannot help but picture you typing, white knuckled. Pounding out your thoughts. Letting it all out before even one breath had passed your lips.. That post reads like a rant.

 

Not a conversation.

 

In the past I would break down at least a dozen parts of that post, I would try and shout louder then you. Go round and round with you for as long as it took to make you see my different pov.

 

Why bother. You already seem to have it ALL figured out.

 

Glad one of us does.

 

 

Ze-

[awe4one]

I think it all comes down to a person's "concept" of restoration. I think the staple repair is restoration of the crudest, most amateur form...but restoration nonetheless because an attempt was made to bolster the structure of the book.

 

If you look at restoration more romantically and as a careful process done by loving professionals to return a comic to it's original condition, you see it as not restoration but defacing of the comic. Nothing wrong with thinking this way...but it does start to blur the lines of what is and what isn't resto...

 

And you can see where I stand in these examples as I still see trimming as a resto practice...

 

Jim

[Filter81]

Just out of curiosity (and sorry if this was covered earlier in the thread) but what would this book have graded out at without the new staples? With a detached front & back cover, I would assume no higher than a 2.0/2.5?

 

If a small dot of color touch only gets a blue label from CGC if it doesn't increase the grade of the book, and if cleaning/pressing gets a blue label because they don't "add anything" to the book, then this book seems to fail the test for both situations in which a book can have work done to it and still get a blue label from CGC.

 

IMHO, I don't see why this book didn't get a purple label, or at the very least a green one This is just me, but personally I could live with a dot of glue or color touch or even a small tear seal much easier than I could live with a whole new set of staples on a book..

 

Has anyone asked anyone at CGC about this book? Is this the way they would've always encapsulated the book? Or is this an attempt to start to phase out the green label?

[FFB]

or is what you're really after the stigmatization caused by the purple label? Would you feel better if the book were an 8.0 Slight (A) PLOD?

 

In a nutshell, yes.

 

What if the buyer is not savy. What if they do not even know how a book was supposed to be stitched? Some people do not know to even look. We have all seen books with staples all over the place before straight from the factory.

 

If a buyer sees a Purple label, they run away in most cases.

They see a Blue label with a possible downgrade(which is unknown exactly how much was taken off) Many times that is all they see.

 

Why this book got a Blue and another gets a Purple is what I guess bothers me. To me Purple labels are not bad. It is an easy way to tell if a book has had work done to it. And you can make up your own mind if what was done to the book is something you can live with. A Blue label with notes on it is fine,if you know to look closely. But alot of times people only see the Blue Label, and dont read everything on it.

 

 

I gotta run. Been fun

 

Ze-

 

If you have a buyer who is that naive/ignorant and yet has thousands of dollars burning a hole in his pocket and a jones for Amazing Spider-Man, he is going to make bad decisions -- whether on this book or on any number of other books that would be far worse buying decisions than this one might be. I do not think it is incumbent upon CGC to cater to the stupidest collector on the market, nor do I think the overly paternalistic attitude toward such collectors is justified. We all had to learn lessons the hard way. To me, it seems to be the cost of ignorance for these mythical rich/incredibly stupid collectors that some people seem so hell bent on protecting. A responsible person wouldn't invest thousands of dollars on collectibles without having some rudimentary knowledge. Those who do cannot expect everyone else in the industry to protect them from making bad decisions.

 

P.S. Has anyone ever met someone who was in the market for a copy of ASM#1, and who was so stupid that if he were looking at this particular book, wouldn't understand what he was buying based on what the label notes say? I haven't and can't imagine such a person exists. I've seen comic collectors who are that stupid before, but they're usually the guys who are looking for the rattiest copy they can find just to fill out a run -- and they usually don't care if their FR copy has a little color touch or five extra staples or whatever.

 

I was under the assumption we were talking in general terms Scott.

 

Nevermind.

 

Ze-

 

Then why did you ask the question "What if the buyer is not savvy?"

 

Honestly?.. because I thought we were having some sort of online discussion.

 

That last post of yours was way bitter Scott. I cannot help but picture you typing, white knuckled. Pounding out your thoughts. Letting it all out before even one breath had passed your lips.. That post reads like a rant.

 

Not a conversation.

 

In the past I would break down at least a dozen parts of that post, I would try and shout louder then you. Go round and round with you for as long as it took to make you see my different pov.

 

Why bother. You already seem to have it ALL figured out.

 

Glad one of us does.

 

 

Ze-

 

Funny, I thought we were having a discussion too. But I see you've switched to "wounded kenny" mode again and I don't have the patience to deal with that for the hundredth time.

[Ze-man]

 

Funny, I thought we were having a discussion too. But I see you've switched to "wounded kenny" mode again and I don't have the patience to deal with that for the hundredth time.

 

 

If you say so Scott.

 

 

 

But that Chocolate Taco line is a keeper.

 

 

 

Ze-

[herc2000]

I think the difference between the Spidey 1 and the other Qualified, restored ones is this. The others have had their staples replaced by someone trying to pretend that they are the original staples, basicaly, trying to hide the restoration to make it seem better. The Spidey 1, the staples have been just put on there for the reason it needed them or had none. They have not been added in a manner to make anyone believe they are the original staples, so there was no intensions of giving false looks.

 

In the same way, if a yellow cover comic had two black felt dots, I doubt it would get a resto, the black dots are not there to make the comic look better than it is. Where as if it were a black cover with blacks felt dots, it would be more likely someone was up to no good at the time and trying to make it appear better.

 

herc

[awe4one]

I think the difference between the Spidey 1 and the other Qualified, restored ones is this. The others have had their staples replaced by someone trying to pretend that they are the original staples, basicaly, trying to hide the restoration to make it seem better. The Spidey 1, the staples have been just put on there for the reason it needed them or had none. They have not been added in a manner to make anyone believe they are the original staples, so there was no intensions of giving false looks.

 

In the same way, if a yellow cover comic had two black felt dots, I doubt it would get a resto, the black dots are not there to make the comic look better than it is. Where as if it were a black cover with blacks felt dots, it would be more likely someone was up to no good at the time and trying to make it appear better.

 

The black dots can be considered miscellanous writing. There is no reason the dots should be on the comic other than Junior decided to play connect the dots on the cover. The staples, as you mentioned, were put there to improve the comic's structure. Doesn't matter whether the staples are unobtrusive or not...the reason for their use was to improve the comic. That's why the first is not resto and the other is, or should be, in my opinion...

 

Jim

[skybolt]

I think the difference between the Spidey 1 and the other Qualified, restored ones is this. The others have had their staples replaced by someone trying to pretend that they are the original staples, basicaly, trying to hide the restoration to make it seem better. The Spidey 1, the staples have been just put on there for the reason it needed them or had none. They have not been added in a manner to make anyone believe they are the original staples, so there was no intensions of giving false looks.

 

In the same way, if a yellow cover comic had two black felt dots, I doubt it would get a resto, the black dots are not there to make the comic look better than it is. Where as if it were a black cover with blacks felt dots, it would be more likely someone was up to no good at the time and trying to make it appear better.

 

The black dots can be considered miscellanous writing. There is no reason the dots should be on the comic other than Junior decided to play connect the dots on the cover. The staples, as you mentioned, were put there to improve the comic's structure. Doesn't matter whether the staples are unobtrusive or not...the reason for their use was to improve the comic. That's why the first is not resto and the other is, or should be, in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

Jim, I have to agree with your assessment as well. The reason why I say this is because without those 2 new staples, the detached book could've easily fallen apart by now. For me this classifies as a conservation method similar to someone ammaturely fixing a spine split to prevent further separation. Since CGC does not distinguish between conservation and restoration at this time, the ASM book should receive a green or blue label.

 

As far as my Fight Comics book is concerned, I think the green label designation is accurate. However, if CGC gets rid of the GLOD label, then it should definitely turn into a PLOD until the 2 additional staples are removed and the book is downgraded for the new holes.

 

That being said, as long as CGC has noted the defects on the label, I'm not going to argue about it.

[skybolt]

Another thing I wanted to mention is that you don't want to entice certain individuals into further damaging their books by adding additional staples and receiving a blue label.

 

Let me give an example. Let's say I own a nice looking X-Men #1 book that was graded by CGC as a 6.0 PLOD due to the original vintage staples being replaced in kind, and in the exact same holes, to make it look restoration free. However, CGC caught this restoration technique and rightfully gave it a PLOD. Due to the PLOD designation, the book in question is now worth around $600 according to fair market value. Now someone who's trying to maximize his profits would be enticed to take this beautifully conserved book, remove the old staples and add 2 new ones similar to the ASM book. So now CGC downgrades this book to a 5.0 (due to the additional staple holes), and give it a blue label designation. To a novice collector this book is now worth over $1k because of the universal label. I would hate to see beautifully conserved books get even further defaced because someone found a loop hole in the process.

 

Now before someone says it's noted on the label (which I agree with), I'll give another example. I've been keeping track of various Heritage signature auctions, and following certain GGA books. Junior Comics #14 in CGC 8.5 Universal grade sold for around $2,900 earlier this year. Another Universal label 8.5 copy came up in the last auction, but with the notation "very small amount of color touch on cover", and sold for the same amount (which is probably 5 times guide). Now you tell me if the book was given a purple label by CGC, would it have sold at anywhere close to that amount........I don't think so!!

[FFB]

I think the difference between the Spidey 1 and the other Qualified, restored ones is this. The others have had their staples replaced by someone trying to pretend that they are the original staples, basicaly, trying to hide the restoration to make it seem better. The Spidey 1, the staples have been just put on there for the reason it needed them or had none. They have not been added in a manner to make anyone believe they are the original staples, so there was no intensions of giving false looks.

 

In the same way, if a yellow cover comic had two black felt dots, I doubt it would get a resto, the black dots are not there to make the comic look better than it is. Where as if it were a black cover with blacks felt dots, it would be more likely someone was up to no good at the time and trying to make it appear better.

 

The black dots can be considered miscellanous writing. There is no reason the dots should be on the comic other than Junior decided to play connect the dots on the cover. The staples, as you mentioned, were put there to improve the comic's structure. Doesn't matter whether the staples are unobtrusive or not...the reason for their use was to improve the comic. That's why the first is not resto and the other is, or should be, in my opinion...

 

Jim

 

OK, but what if he had stapled the book once in the upper left hand corner, like most people staple multi-paged documents? That holds the book together. Is it still restoration? Still need a purple label? I don't think so. What if he had used binder clips to hold the book together instead of staples?

[FFB]

Another thing I wanted to mention is that you don't want to entice certain individuals into further damaging their books by adding additional staples and receiving a blue label.

 

Let me give an example. Let's say I own a nice looking X-Men #1 book that was graded by CGC as a 6.0 PLOD due to the original vintage staples being replaced in kind, and in the exact same holes, to make it look restoration free. However, CGC caught this restoration technique and rightfully gave it a PLOD.

 

Unfortunately, your premise is wrong. Replaced staples get a GREEN label, not a PLOD, unless there is other restoration work done to the book.

 

Due to the PLOD designation, the book in question is now worth around $600 according to fair market value. Now someone who's trying to maximize his profits would be enticed to take this beautifully conserved book, remove the old staples and add 2 new ones similar to the ASM book. So now CGC downgrades this book to a 5.0 (due to the additional staple holes), and give it a blue label designation. To a novice collector this book is now worth over $1k because of the universal label. I would hate to see beautifully conserved books get even further defaced because someone found a loop hole in the process.

 

The loophole doesn't work for reasons previously stated and if the book was a 6.0 with staples, it's probably a 3.0 without them, not a 5.0.

 

Now before someone says it's noted on the label (which I agree with), I'll give another example. I've been keeping track of various Heritage signature auctions, and following certain GGA books. Junior Comics #14 in CGC 8.5 Universal grade sold for around $2,900 earlier this year. Another Universal label 8.5 copy came up in the last auction, but with the notation "very small amount of color touch on cover", and sold for the same amount (which is probably 5 times guide). Now you tell me if the book was given a purple label by CGC, would it have sold at anywhere close to that amount........I don't think so!!

 

Then maybe the problem is that the label itself causes the stigma and reduction in value, not the book. What has always mystified me is why people are ok with this, and want to shove as many books as possible into purple labels, even though the same disclosure could be accomplished using a blue label?!? In a way, people who shun the PLOD on books with a dot of CT but buy blue label books with a dot of CT are the worst label-blind collectors there are.

[awe4one]

OK, but what if he had stapled the book once in the upper left hand corner, like most people staple multi-paged documents? That holds the book together. Is it still restoration? Still need a purple label? I don't think so. What if he had used binder clips to hold the book together instead of staples?

 

Have you ever seen a slabbed book stapled in the upper left hand corner? And the clips would be taken off before being slabbed...

 

I can live with the fact some staples could be added by a mischevious child playing with the stapler. That's not the case in this instance...

 

Jim

[skybolt]

Then maybe the problem is that the label itself causes the stigma and reduction in value, not the book. What has always mystified me is why people are ok with this, and want to shove as many books as possible into purple labels, even though the same disclosure could be accomplished using a blue label?!? In a way, people who shun the PLOD on books with a dot of CT but buy blue label books with a dot of CT are the worst label-blind collectors there are.

 

I agree, but at the same time I would like to see some consistency. If the Junior Comics #14 copy had maybe one or two more dots of color touch, then its value would've plummeted to less than $1K if it was in a purple holder. Why should some books be placed on a pedistal because their grade doesn't change by more than half a point with the resto work, while others like the Zago book I posted take a beating?!

[FFB]

OK, but what if he had stapled the book once in the upper left hand corner, like most people staple multi-paged documents? That holds the book together. Is it still restoration? Still need a purple label? I don't think so. What if he had used binder clips to hold the book together instead of staples?

 

Have you ever seen a slabbed book stapled in the upper left hand corner? And the clips would be taken off before being slabbed...

 

I can live with the fact some staples could be added by a mischevious child playing with the stapler. That's not the case in this instance...

 

Jim

 

Who said anything about a mischievous child? What if an adult did it to hold the book together? I've seen dozens of comic books that have two staple holes on the leading edge of the cover (opposite the spine), so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone would use a single staple in the upper left hand corner to hold a book together.

[awe4one]

What has always mystified me is why people are ok with this, and want to shove as many books as possible into purple labels, even though the same disclosure could be accomplished using a blue label?!?

 

Because the restored label was created to clearly distinguish restored vs. unrestored comics. If collectors didn't care for resto to be clearly identified previous to CGC's inception, the PLOD never would have come to pass...

 

And as far as some trying to push as many comics into PLODs as possible as you speculate, that's not true. "I" just want those that are restored to clearly be identified as such. To blur the lines that some resto doesn't meet the PLOD standard just dilutes the definition and causes confusion...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

Who said anything about a mischievous child? What if an adult did it to hold the book together? I've seen dozens of comic books that have two staple holes on the leading edge of the cover (opposite the spine), so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone would use a single staple in the upper left hand corner to hold a book together.

 

OK a mischievous "person" then...still doesn't make a difference. The comic we are talking about has staples that are clearly placed to hold the book together and strengthen it's structure. Thus it's restored in my opinion...

 

Jim

[Mr. Zipper]

I have to agree with FFB in this case.

 

There is no intent to restore to original condition here... it's simply an amateur repair -- akin to tape -- and should be interpreted as a flaw, not restoration (or qualified).

 

An analogous example would be obvious crayon coloring to the cover. Would anyone seriously consider that color touch restoration or should it [rightfully] be factored as a flaw and get a blue label?