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Manipulation and the Collector Appeal of High Grade

Started by Paul_Maul,

75 posts in this topic

Bullet123

Bullet123

Posted
Posted
Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

 

 

Can anyone offer insight?

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

 

 

Can anyone offer insight?

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

You forgot to mention dating women who are, or look like, supermodels. cloud9.gif

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Monstro

Monstro

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

No kidding. Everyone knows that people who collect the nicest comics live in shacks in Pennsyltucky and drive Beverly-Hillbilly-mobiles. What are you thinking posting those LIES, Bullet?!

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Bullet123

Bullet123

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

I have not come across many collectors in this hobby so far that can afford the 9.6 but choose the 9.2 because it make more sense. They want the 9.6 and won't settle for less.

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Foolkiller

Foolkiller

Posted
Posted
Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

 

 

Can anyone offer insight?

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

Bullet --

 

I know you're not trying to sound snobbish, but it does come across that way. That may be a mentality, but I really am not sure it applies in comics. I know plenty of people with a lot of money that buy low grades because they prefer volume and readability.

 

Let me just say this: if I made $30k a year or $2.5 mil a year, I'd probably never drive a luxury car -- why? Because I don't place much value in a car. I'll always drive a Toyota or a Honda or a Ford. I just prefer that in a car.

 

I work hard in my job and yes I can afford the fine things in life, fine dinig etc. I also will eat Burger King now and again and enjoy Ramen noodles at home. My boss is a gazillionaire. He still eats at fast food places and enjoys simple things in life and doesn't flaunt his money. He also likes campgrounds, going fishing and doing simple things and doesn't really engage in five star hotels all the time.

 

I like going on nice vacations, but feel no need to go out all the time or have the "best" in life.

 

When I was a student and a DA, making little money, I still loved high grade, because it looked the nicest. I still love high grade even though I have some money because it looks nice.

 

It doesn't have to always be about "having the best". Even when you can afford the best, it doesn't mean that just because you can buy yourself the best material object, that equates with feeling a need to do so.

 

I'm not some super rich person, but I have a couple of friends who are extremely well off, and I don't see them out there only buying the best either just for the sake of doing so.

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Monstro

Monstro

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

No kidding. Everyone knows that people who collect the nicest comics live in shacks in Pennsyltucky and drive Beverly-Hillbilly-mobiles. What are you thinking posting those LIES, Bullet?!

 

have you been to a comic show? have you seen the people? "They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops."

 

 

27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gifscrewy.gif

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Bullet123

Bullet123

Posted
Posted
Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

 

 

Can anyone offer insight?

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

Bullet --

 

I know you're not trying to sound snobbish, but it does come across that way. That may be a mentality, but I really am not sure it applies in comics. I know plenty of people with a lot of money that buy low grades because they prefer volume and readability.

 

Let me just say this: if I made $30k a year or $2.5 mil a year, I'd probably never drive a luxury car -- why? Because I don't place much value in a car. I'll always drive a Toyota or a Honda or a Ford. I just prefer that in a car.

 

I work hard in my job and yes I can afford the fine things in life, fine dinig etc. I also will eat Burger King now and again and enjoy Ramen noodles at home. My boss is a gazillionaire. He still eats at fast food places and enjoys simple things in life and doesn't flaunt his money. He also likes campgrounds, going fishing and doing simple things and doesn't really engage in five start hotels all the time.

 

I like going on nice vacations, but feel no need to go out all the time or have the "best" in life.

 

When I was a student and a DA, making little money, I still loved high grade, because it looked the nicest. I still love high grade even though I have some money because it looks nice.

 

It doesn't have to always be about "having the best". Even when you can afford the best, it doesn't mean that just because you can buy yourself the best material object, that equates with feeling a need to do so.

 

I'm not some super rich person, but I have a couple of friends who are extremely well off, and I don't see them out there only buying the best either just for the sake of doing so.

 

For the record, I drive a 1999 Chrysler Town and Country minivan with 100K miles on it not because I have to, but because I see no need to drive anything impractical just for the sake of appearance.

 

My point was the mentality behind chasing the extra .2 .I for one, on a consistent basis can not tell the difference. There are some 9.2 i think look better than 9.4 and vice versa. But like it or not, there is a contigent within the hobby that cares about the grade more than the actual book. The Registry is a perfect example of this mentality. I am sure on anyones registry set there is a book or two that has a lower graded counterpart that the general consensus would say looks better but they would probably never swap that book out. Why ?because of the grade. There is no practical reason to spend 100K+ on a car that takes you to and from the grocery store yet I pass them every day on the road. Why? I hope you know the reason.

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

No kidding. Everyone knows that people who collect the nicest comics live in shacks in Pennsyltucky and drive Beverly-Hillbilly-mobiles. What are you thinking posting those LIES, Bullet?!

 

have you been to a comic show? have you seen the people? "They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops."

 

 

27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gifscrewy.gif

 

Many times. The people who you're talking about aren't buying books for $50,000 apiece or more. That's who Bullet is talking about because he's a golden age collector. A 9.4 copy in his genre is almost always going to be an expensive book. I think you collect GA too, so you should know this. Almost every "big book buyer" I've met in the last five years fits Bullet's model, not yours. Perhaps not all of them, but definitely most of them.

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Bullet123

Bullet123

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

No kidding. Everyone knows that people who collect the nicest comics live in shacks in Pennsyltucky and drive Beverly-Hillbilly-mobiles. What are you thinking posting those LIES, Bullet?!

 

have you been to a comic show? have you seen the people? "They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops."

 

 

27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gifscrewy.gif

 

The people I see at the comic shops and shows are for the most part are pouring over the $.50 and $1 bins so I do not see your point.

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Foolkiller

Foolkiller

Posted
Posted
Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

 

 

Can anyone offer insight?

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

Bullet --

 

I know you're not trying to sound snobbish, but it does come across that way. That may be a mentality, but I really am not sure it applies in comics. I know plenty of people with a lot of money that buy low grades because they prefer volume and readability.

 

Let me just say this: if I made $30k a year or $2.5 mil a year, I'd probably never drive a luxury car -- why? Because I don't place much value in a car. I'll always drive a Toyota or a Honda or a Ford. I just prefer that in a car.

 

I work hard in my job and yes I can afford the fine things in life, fine dinig etc. I also will eat Burger King now and again and enjoy Ramen noodles at home. My boss is a gazillionaire. He still eats at fast food places and enjoys simple things in life and doesn't flaunt his money. He also likes campgrounds, going fishing and doing simple things and doesn't really engage in five start hotels all the time.

 

I like going on nice vacations, but feel no need to go out all the time or have the "best" in life.

 

When I was a student and a DA, making little money, I still loved high grade, because it looked the nicest. I still love high grade even though I have some money because it looks nice.

 

It doesn't have to always be about "having the best". Even when you can afford the best, it doesn't mean that just because you can buy yourself the best material object, that equates with feeling a need to do so.

 

I'm not some super rich person, but I have a couple of friends who are extremely well off, and I don't see them out there only buying the best either just for the sake of doing so.

 

For the record, I drive a 1999 Chrysler Town and Country minivan with 100K miles on it not because I have to, but because I see no need to drive anything impractical just for the sake of appearance.

 

My point was the mentality behind chasing the extra .2 .I for one, on a consistent basis can not tell the difference. There are some 9.2 i think look better than 9.4 and vice versa. But like it or not, there is a contigent within the hobby that cares about the grade more than the actual book. The Registry is a perfect example of this mentality. I am sure on anyones registry set there is a book or two that has a lower graded counterpart that the general consensus would say looks better but they would probably never swap that book out. Why ?because of the grade. There is no practical reason to spend 100K+ on a car that takes you to and from the grocery store yet I pass them every day on the road. Why? I hope you know the reason.

 

My point is, that's not everyone or even to me, a primary driving factor for why people collect high grade. But, I will agree that there's some people who do want the "best" for that reason (9.8s, 9.9s and 10.0s being an example of that mentality). And a lot of the big book buyers don't "look" always like they have a lot of money. I would think someone buying a $50k book would. But then there are those who spend $50k + a year who are probably foolishly over taxing their finances to afford it but still are "big book" buyers.

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skybolt

skybolt

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

I have not come across many collectors in this hobby so far that can afford the 9.6 but choose the 9.2 because it make more sense. They want the 9.6 and won't settle for less.

 

I agree that a 9.6 is a better looking book than a 9.2 (at least most of the time). However, the way I look at it is that the money I save by purchasing the 9.2 copy, would allow me to buy another 9.2 or 8.0 book on my want list. Whether my budget is $1K or $100K it doesn't really matter since none of us will ever be able to purchase every single book our heart desires. For instance, is there anyone on these boards that can buy back every single Church book in existence?! I doubt it. What I mean is that if someone gave me an option of owning three 9.2 copies of ASM #1 vs. one 9.6 copy, I'd choose the three (assuming the resell values were the same). You might say well if you have the money, then get three 9.6 graded copies. However, I'd still prefer nine 9.2 copies instead, and so on. Eventually, we'd reach a scenario that went into the tens of millions and I'd still feel the same way. There certainly isn't anything wrong with getting the best available copy of everything, but that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

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Monstro

Monstro

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

No kidding. Everyone knows that people who collect the nicest comics live in shacks in Pennsyltucky and drive Beverly-Hillbilly-mobiles. What are you thinking posting those LIES, Bullet?!

 

have you been to a comic show? have you seen the people? "They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops."

 

 

27_laughing.gif27_laughing.gifscrewy.gif

 

Many times. The people who you're talking about aren't buying books for $50,000 apiece or more. That's who Bullet is talking about because he's a golden age collector. A 9.4 copy in his genre is almost always going to be an expensive book. I think you collect GA too, so you should know this. Almost every "big book buyer" I've met in the last five years fits Bullet's model, not yours. Perhaps not all of them, but definitely most of them.

 

alright then say people who buy hg super rare books or number ones.

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted

 

At the risk of sounding snobbish, let me offer a possible reason. People that can afford the best are generally successful people in their real lives outside of collecting. They are used to the "better" things in life. They will not drive a KIA, they drive a BMW. They will not buy their clothes at Target, they buy them from designer shops. They do not vacation at campgrounds, they stay at 5 star hotels. When you work hard at your real job and that job enables you to afford nice things, then you pursue the best of everything in life. If I want a XYZ comic and can afford a 9.4, why would I buy a 8.0. It simply does not look as nice. Just like someone who buys the 8.0. that is probably the best that they can afford. Not always the case, but a fair generalization. In my opinion that is

 

what a bunch of bull sheit

 

I have not come across many collectors in this hobby so far that can afford the 9.6 but choose the 9.2 because it make more sense. They want the 9.6 and won't settle for less.

 

 

27_laughing.gif

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