New Mastro Auction...holy guacamole.....!!

[dem1138]

I don't think so. I think the combination of cash/trade has to be SIGNIFICANTLY factored in. If these were all-cash deals, then I'd say yes.

 

Additionally, these were 2 PRIME pages. When's the last time a great early Ditko Spidey page went up for sale? When's the last time we saw a Goblin page?

 

It all comes down to this - whoever is holding on to the significant majority of Ditko art is doing a fantastic job of letting it out slowly...

[spider9698]

True but I think significant cash/trade was always the rule with Heritage. In addition, Heritage had the ASM 8 splash which failed to sell and was available postsale for around 50K (I think). Granted a goblin page hasn't been available for quite some time but ASM 6 pages are floating around.

[westform]

Stephen; I agree....also, it has always been much rarer for items at this level to be all cash than cash/trade. Consigning to future auctions with material that will pay off your current debt is not trade in my opinion... it is an example of a time payment. And, that is the method I believed used by Mastro and Heritage predominantly. Sorry folks, you will not find a vintage or really good Ditko spidey page with major villian for under 20k methinks again.... unless you find someone not paying attention. Just wait until the next Heritage auction!!!!! Woof!

[dem1138]

Stephen; I agree....also, it has always been much rarer for items at this level to be all cash than cash/trade. Consigning to future auctions with material that will pay off your current debt is not trade in my opinion... it is an example of a time payment. And, that is the method I believed used by Mastro and Heritage predominantly. Sorry folks, you will not find a vintage or really good Ditko spidey page with major villian for under 20k methinks again.... unless you find someone not paying attention. Just wait until the next Heritage auction!!!!! Woof!

 

You are wrong - both Heritage and Mastro will assign a trade value to your art that you can then use towards a current auction. That's a trade. You are trading art you have for art you want. They are assigning a value to your art and you art trading it for art they have at auction based on those values. For example - you have a page that they value at 10K - you bid and win a page that totals 10K with the juice - you send them your page -- they send you the page you won. THAT IS A TRADE.

 

If you consign art to a future auction to pay for something in a current auction - you are trading the value of your art for the value of their art.

[comix4fun]

Stephen; I agree....also, it has always been much rarer for items at this level to be all cash than cash/trade. Consigning to future auctions with material that will pay off your current debt is not trade in my opinion... it is an example of a time payment. And, that is the method I believed used by Mastro and Heritage predominantly. Sorry folks, you will not find a vintage or really good Ditko spidey page with major villian for under 20k methinks again.... unless you find someone not paying attention. Just wait until the next Heritage auction!!!!! Woof!

 

You are wrong - both Heritage and Mastro will assign a trade value to your art that you can then use towards a current auction. That's a trade. You are trading art you have for art you want. They are assigning a value to your art and you art trading it for art they have at auction based on those values. For example - you have a page that they value at 10K - you bid and win a page that totals 10K with the juice - you send them your page -- they send you the page you won. THAT IS A TRADE.

 

If you consign art to a future auction to pay for something in a current auction - you are trading the value of your art for the value of their art.

 

 

Actually, from talking to them and actually trading some art to them, that is not accurate.

They actually allow you to sell them your pages at a percentage of market value and use the money they would pay you for the page against the balance you owe them.

It is not your $10k page against the $10k page you won straight up.

 

They are allowing people to be more flexible and to try and bid on pieces they may not have the cash for, but they are not allowing 100% value for the traded pieces to be used against the balance.

 

You would have to give up a larger amount of value in art than you would in straight cash, in other words, to make the transaction balance.

 

In this sense I don't think it is artificially inflating the hammer price at all, in fact people who do trade are giving Mastro more $$ value in trade to get the deal done, meaning that if you really approached the value of a piece that was "traded" for you can probably add an extra 20-30% to the final sale price if you are looking for a trade value.

 

In that sense they are hitting even more impressive numbers at auction if you consider which , if any, pieces include trade.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Chris

[dem1138]

Stephen; I agree....also, it has always been much rarer for items at this level to be all cash than cash/trade. Consigning to future auctions with material that will pay off your current debt is not trade in my opinion... it is an example of a time payment. And, that is the method I believed used by Mastro and Heritage predominantly. Sorry folks, you will not find a vintage or really good Ditko spidey page with major villian for under 20k methinks again.... unless you find someone not paying attention. Just wait until the next Heritage auction!!!!! Woof!

 

You are wrong - both Heritage and Mastro will assign a trade value to your art that you can then use towards a current auction. That's a trade. You are trading art you have for art you want. They are assigning a value to your art and you art trading it for art they have at auction based on those values. For example - you have a page that they value at 10K - you bid and win a page that totals 10K with the juice - you send them your page -- they send you the page you won. THAT IS A TRADE.

 

If you consign art to a future auction to pay for something in a current auction - you are trading the value of your art for the value of their art.

 

 

Actually, from talking to them and actually trading some art to them, that is not accurate.

They actually allow you to sell them your pages at a percentage of market value and use the money they would pay you for the page against the balance you owe them.

It is not your $10k page against the $10k page you won straight up.

 

They are allowing people to be more flexible and to try and bid on pieces they may not have the cash for, but they are not allowing 100% value for the traded pieces to be used against the balance.

 

You would have to give up a larger amount of value in art than you would in straight cash, in other words, to make the transaction balance.

 

In this sense I don't think it is artificially inflating the hammer price at all, in fact people who do trade are giving Mastro more $$ value in trade to get the deal done, meaning that if you really approached the value of a piece that was "traded" for you can probably add an extra 20-30% to the final sale price if you are looking for a trade value.

 

In that sense they are hitting even more impressive numbers at auction if you consider which , if any, pieces include trade.

 

Hope that makes sense.

Chris

 

 

How is this different from what I said? They value your page at 10K - I didn't say that the page was worth 10K - I said that that's what they valued it at - and you can trade that 10K in value towards whatever the balance sheet is. Isn't that what you are saying as well?

 

Since you have traded with them, I do have a question. Does the balance sheet include the juice? In other words if you win something at a hammer price of 15K - and you are trading them something that they value at 10K - do you owe them 5K or 5K plus the juice on 15K (@20%)?

 

Thanks for helping to clarify if wasn't clear and thanks for your response.

[comix4fun]

How is this different from what I said? They value your page at 10K - I didn't say that the page was worth 10K - I said that that's what they valued it at - and you can trade that 10K in value towards whatever the balance sheet is. Isn't that what you are saying as well?

 

What I am saying is you value your page at $10k, they value it at 10k and they will take it in trade at a percentage of the 10k....70% for example.

 

So you can either pay them $10k in cash or you can give them a 10k piece of art and 3k in cash.

 

Sorry if I was not clear, that is what I meant by they take the art at a percentage of its value.

 

Since you have traded with them, I do have a question. Does the balance sheet include the juice? In other words if you win something at a hammer price of 15K - and you are trading them something that they value at 10K - do you owe them 5K or 5K plus the juice on 15K (@20%)?

 

Your balance with them includes all buyer's fees and shipping if appropriate (not picking it up at their offices).

If you win a piece at $10k hammer, the final price is 12k.

If you trade a 10k valued piece to them, they take it at $7k (to use a sample percentage and not trying to speak for them) and you owe the other $5k in cash.

 

I can't speak for them if they will accept art for the full balance of what is due (or if they want at least 1/2 of the balance in cash), but I do know they are selective in what they choose to accept and fair in how they arrive at values, etc.

 

I hope this is clearer, I was mumbling before.

Chris

[dem1138]

Just to add another angle - though I didn't win anything with them - I presented some pieces to them and we came to an actual number that they would give me - it wasn't necessarily a % of the agreed upon value - but rather them saying - send us this piece and we will give you 'x' for it to subtract from the final bill. I would say that 'x' was certainly below market - but not to a considerable degree. Maybe 20%. I found many of their valuations to be fair. I was happy to see that they knew what they were doing.

[westform]

Stephen; I agree....also, it has always been much rarer for items at this level to be all cash than cash/trade. Consigning to future auctions with material that will pay off your current debt is not trade in my opinion... it is an example of a time payment. And, that is the method I believed used by Mastro and Heritage predominantly. Sorry folks, you will not find a vintage or really good Ditko spidey page with major villian for under 20k methinks again.... unless you find someone not paying attention. Just wait until the next Heritage auction!!!!! Woof!

 

You are wrong - both Heritage and Mastro will assign a trade value to your art that you can then use towards a current auction. That's a trade. You are trading art you have for art you want. They are assigning a value to your art and you art trading it for art they have at auction based on those values. For example - you have a page that they value at 10K - you bid and win a page that totals 10K with the juice - you send them your page -- they send you the page you won. THAT IS A TRADE.

 

If you consign art to a future auction to pay for something in a current auction - you are trading the value of your art for the value of their art.

 

David; of course I'm not wrong. You may just be a little naive here; that's ok. You are mistakenly throwing around the term 'trade' here for deals that aren't. But, the facts are that most transactions with Heritage by collectors and dealers are not 'trades'. They are either cash sales or fronting you money based on pieces you will consign with them. It is a negotiable % based on their idea of value. But, and it's the crucial but, if those items don't sell you have to fork over the unpaid dough or consign more, or lower reserves, etc. etc. This is not a 'trade'. I'm not saying every deal is structured that way, but it is more prevelent than simply trading them your pieces. This does happen and I have happily been involved with trades with Heritage before, but it is much harder to structure a trade both sides are happy with than simply guaranteeing to pay them the money you owe them with future consignments. We can argue this all you want but there is no reason to. Time payments and guaranteed consignments are not trade. Ownership never leaves the consignors hands. Wishing it not to be true is like wishing primo Ditko spider-man pages could be had for under 20k.....

[dem1138]

1) I'm not arguing - but thanks for clarifying

2) I know of deals where primo Ditko pages have gone for FAR under 20K - the only wishing involved was in me being the one who acquired them for the prices that they sold for.

3) I can understand your excitement with valueing "primo Ditko Spidey pages" for at least 20K - since you have a nice one from #7 but I know of several long term collectors who feel that these are in no way sustainable prices and that this is a time to wait it out...I know that you do not agree - but that is why we have opinions.

 

We'll see as I continue to hear that these auction prices will be bringing more pages to auction - and those results will create a more formidable confirmation of values.

 

4) In the end - I'm glad that we're actually having a relevant and meaningful discussion about original art - something that does not occur that often.

 

Dan - I respect what you have to say as you often put your money where your mouth is. However, I refuse to drink the Kool-Aid and will continue to question and seek further confirmation. If I'm wrong, I will be the first to say, "You told me so."

[Gozer59-migration]

1) I'm not arguing - but thanks for clarifying

2) I know of deals where primo Ditko pages have gone for FAR under 20K - the only wishing involved was in me being the one who acquired them for the prices that they sold for.

3) I can understand your excitement with valueing "primo Ditko Spidey pages" for at least 20K - since you have a nice one from #7 but I know of several long term collectors who feel that these are in no way sustainable prices and that this is a time to wait it out...I know that you do not agree - but that is why we have opinions.

 

We'll see as I continue to hear that these auction prices will be bringing more pages to auction - and those results will create a more formidable confirmation of values.

 

4) In the end - I'm glad that we're actually having a relevant and meaningful discussion about original art - something that does not occur that often.

 

Dan - I respect what you have to say as you often put your money where your mouth is. However, I refuse to drink the Kool-Aid and will continue to question and seek further confirmation. If I'm wrong, I will be the first to say, "You told me so."

 

$20,00 for an interior page to an ASM book seems fair. I honestly could see pages getting more if the action were particularly splendid. Agreed that generic pages shouldnt get that much but the pages offered in this thread look FANTASTIC!

[westform]

1) I'm not arguing - but thanks for clarifying

2) I know of deals where primo Ditko pages have gone for FAR under 20K - the only wishing involved was in me being the one who acquired them for the prices that they sold for.

3) I can understand your excitement with valueing "primo Ditko Spidey pages" for at least 20K - since you have a nice one from #7 but I know of several long term collectors who feel that these are in no way sustainable prices and that this is a time to wait it out...I know that you do not agree - but that is why we have opinions.

 

We'll see as I continue to hear that these auction prices will be bringing more pages to auction - and those results will create a more formidable confirmation of values.

 

4) In the end - I'm glad that we're actually having a relevant and meaningful discussion about original art - something that does not occur that often.

 

Dan - I respect what you have to say as you often put your money where your mouth is. However, I refuse to drink the Kool-Aid and will continue to question and seek further confirmation. If I'm wrong, I will be the first to say, "You told me so."

 

David; I'm not going to argue Ditko pricing because as you say the proof lies in future sales and I don't care. The prices will never go down below what I have into my pages and I do want to buy a few more... so I feel strongly both ways. What I disagree with is the discounting of the current sales because there was so called 'trade involved'. I have seen NO evidence of trade. Trade is when you give up your piece and all rights to it for another piece and all ownership rights that go with that. This is most likely NOT the case here. Perhaps the sales were cash, or perhaps they were time payments. But, ultimately the buyers had to pay the piper with cash; whether it be through immediate payment or future proceeds from sales. Doesn't matter.

 

And, yes, I too can give you dozens and dozens.... actually hundreds of examples of Ditko spidey pages selling for under 20k. But, alas, they are in the past. The market clearly appears to be moving over 20k (well over) for primo, villian and spidey pages. These are the most current sales. Sorry if it bums you out. I didn't buy them, so I ain't to blame.... Just the messenger. Yes, the market may reverse, but don't see any indication of why it would at this point other than conjecture.

 

Finally, there have always been dealers and collectors who will advise that the market is too high and to wait it out. Unfortunately, i haven't seen too many examples of big reversals that would warrent such pessimism. Not saying there haven't been any, but if you are waiting for the best of the best in our hobby to implode, you could be waiting alooooong time.