56K for first Superman and 83K for the reprint

[bluechip]

BTW, I must say I have seen other Supes with 4.5 grades and the like which I thought were overgraded. But than I saw a 2.0 that looked better than the just sold 5.0 and I had to wonder if the owner just wasn't connected enough to get the same treatment

[ft88]

I'd need to see more evidence for conspiracy but who knows. The other problem I have with the Superman 1 is that the staple looks loose, probably a normal issue but so be it. Still, this is a good looking book with some cover loss along the spine. I'd grade it a 4.0 and wouldn't pay over that. But even if it actually graded a 4.0 it probably would sell for a similar amount.

 

BTW I don't need to guess on the Action #1. The large scan heritage provides makes it clear what is going on with the spine. Very rarely will a spine only need large corner work, most likely its was split all the way down with pieces missing along the way. Yeah its a guess but a likely one.

 

Pre restoration prices

 

Front cover with pieces missing $20k

Back cover with pieces missing $10k

Interior less centerfold $10k

centerfold $10k

 

All together $57k.

 

Extensive work done $3k

Less PLOD discount -3k

 

And there you go.

[Apotheosis]

and I had to wonder if the owner just wasn't connected enough to get the same treatment

 

Elvis is still alive. JFK was killed by the FBI. Aliens crashed in Roswell. Britney Spears is talented.

[Silver Surfer]

I can appreciate anybody having an aversion just to knowing a book was once opened with staples removed. What you care for versus what you don't is your own business.

 

But does it make sense for a service to pride itself on evaluating books and charge for it, then put it in a slab so nothing can happen after they've done their thorough screaning ------ and then you, as a potential buyer or even just interested observer, are still having to GUESS whether the spine was rebuilt based on what it looks like??

 

Is the CGC about providing unbiased and agenda-frree information or not?

 

My concern is not for what people may think based on the info. That I am happy to leave to the market. I am concerned entirely about the misinformation and inconsistency. And impure info with an agenda is not something I'm comfortable shrugging off.

 

These two books are supposedly equal in apparent grade?

 

 

 

Personally I think a 5.0 grade on this book with the spine damage, especially around the staples, is ridiculous. Can someone show me examples of similar type grades/books because anything I have ever seen that is similar would garner grades of 2.5-4.0 at best. I know its hard to grade from a front cover scan but given that with each 0.5 grade bump equals tens of thousands of dollars this strikes me as suspect.

[bluechip]

and I had to wonder if the owner just wasn't connected enough to get the same treatment

 

Elvis is still alive. JFK was killed by the FBI. Aliens crashed in Roswell. Britney Spears is talented.

 

 

Actually there is no evidence to suggest any of the conspiracies you listed.

 

If by attempting to draw completely improper comparisons, you want to force me to state things more clearly instead of merely alluding to them, then so be it.

 

When you know a grading service owner had a huge financial stake in a collection, and you see the same grading service gives exceedingly favorable treatment to books from the same collection, you cannot help but wonder. In fact you should wonder if they are being treated the same.

 

Beyond that, I am open to evidence that standards for grading on certain collections is not easier than it is on others. Because without even going out of my way to find them I have seen many examples to the contrary.

 

But perhaps instead of evidence all you'll need to do is say something like "...and aliens abducted Lindsay Lohan..."

 

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

I'd need to see more evidence for conspiracy but who knows. The other problem I have with the Superman 1 is that the staple looks loose, probably a normal issue but so be it. Still, this is a good looking book with some cover loss along the spine. I'd grade it a 4.0 and wouldn't pay over that. But even if it actually graded a 4.0 it probably would sell for a similar amount.

 

BTW I don't need to guess on the Action #1. The large scan heritage provides makes it clear what is going on with the spine. Very rarely will a spine only need large corner work, most likely its was split all the way down with pieces missing along the way. Yeah its a guess but a likely one.

 

Pre restoration prices

 

Front cover with pieces missing $20k

Back cover with pieces missing $10k

Interior less centerfold $10k

centerfold $10k

 

All together $57k.

 

Extensive work done $3k

Less PLOD discount -3k

 

 

 

And there you go.

 

 

I am not the one who said there was a conspiracy. I think the agendas are pretty much out in the open.

 

IA CGC founder owned many copies from pedigree collection(s), which means he hhad financinal interests riding on whether the books did well. Then, books graded by his own company from the same collectioon(s) get graded by standards that seeem less stringent than from others.

 

I've also seen a CGC founder quoted in interview extoliling that his efforts have made lower grade key books "more affordable"

 

Nobody needs to use the word conspitracy here. It is simpler than that. It's an clear agenda. And the fact that grading standards are not consistent is obvious.,

 

As for whether you needed to guess, I think you may have missed the point. I was not deriding your sills at detecting restoration, only the fact that after a book was professionally eva;luated and slabbed that yoy, or anyone else, would need to in order to have more information that "pieces added, tears sealed, cleanred, pressed, etc." in order to know the spine was rebuilt. Somehting is wrong when money has been paid to perform relaborate restoration detection and we're still talking about guessing (experlty or not) as to whether the spine was rebuilt

[rjpb]

Speaking of reprints, does anyone know if the Nova Scotia is a 1st print, or a later one with the changed Action Ad?

[sacentaur]

"...and aliens abducted Lindsay Lohan..."

 

...and 15 seconds later jettisoned her out the emergency hatch <blech>.

 

The Superman 1 5.0 Nova Scotia looks like a nice mid-grade book.

 

The Action 1 5.0 extensive resto looks better than grade.

 

But we're just speculating until the books are seen outside of their tombs.

 

bluechip raises some salient points worthy of consideration.

 

If Showcase-4 presented us a choice between the two books, I'd chose..... the Superman 1.

 

STEVE

[bluechip]

Speaking of reprints, does anyone know if the Nova Scotia is a 1st print, or a later one with the changed Action Ad?

 

What a queston. It doesn't matter whether it's first print or first apperaance. What matters if the condition. Oh, wait, unless the condition of your copy is nicer looking than mine. Then what matters is whether I found it.

[bluechip]

[quoteIf Showcase-4 presented us a choice between the two books, I'd chose..... the Superman 1.

 

STEVE

 

 

So would I. But only because I know there's a buyer for the Superman 1 at 83K and a seller for the Acion 1 at 56K. I'd end up with the action 1 and 27K in my pocket.

 

That is, of course, if the question presumes the book would be a gift.

[Silver Surfer]

Just seems odd that CGC appears to hammer grades more for even light stains than it does for pieces and chips missing like the damage we see on the Superman #1. I can understand if its "Marvel Chipping" (for lack of a better term) but this kind of defects are just plain old damage. Might help if CGC ever decides to publish some grading standards because this particular case seems to be way too subjective.

[showcase4]

If Showcase-4 presented us a choice between the two books, I'd chose..... the Superman 1.

 

STEVE

 

OK...if comic characters can make a crossover appearance from one book to another, I will ask a crossover question from one thread to another.

 

We have the $56k restored Action 1, and the $83k unrestored Supes 1. Which one would you choose, and why???

[bluechip]

If Showcase-4 presented us a choice between the two books, I'd chose..... the Superman 1.

 

STEVE

 

OK...if comic characters can make a crossover appearance from one book to another, I will ask a crossover question from one thread to another.

 

We have the $56k restored Action 1, and the $83k unrestored Supes 1. Which one would you choose, and why???

 

Presuming the choice is whether you would pay the price for one as opposed to the other, I would say the action 1 because it's somehwhat undervalued, while the Superman 1 is slightly overgraded -- though the book itself may still worth it, I don't consider the 83K as an undervalued price the same way I would the action 1.

 

(but even that I would do reluctantly because while I do not mind restoration in concept, I must know precisely what was done to the book, and it's not clear that in this case that info is available)

[FFB]

The extensive restoration just kills it for me on an Action #1 - it screams frankenbook. With both types of books available in reasonable number, its the unrestored copies that are impressive. Superman 1 is probably the 4th best comic to own, having it unrestored is a knockout and worth the 50% premium over the Action 1.

 

I don't think you can call that book a frankenbook. The only pieces added that are visible from the scan are the squared off spine tip (about a 1/4 inch triangle) at the top spine corner and a larger piece (about a 1 inch triangle) at the bottom spine corner. It looks like the cover was either detached at the lower staple or maybe at both staples, although that's impossible to tell from the scan -- but there has been paper added at the staples to secure the cover to the rest of the book. The vast majority of the image areas (including front and back) is all original material though. Not a whole lot of the line art was recreated; just right along the spine and at the right elbow of the guy at lower left. There doesn't appear to be a ton of color touch anywhere. All I can see is the inpainting on the aforementioned replaced pieces (plus the white along the back spine area) and some color touch along some of the corner creases, spine creases, and a few edge tears. It's certainly not a slight or moderate job (I'd call any book with more than a square inch of "real estate" recreated an extensive job no matter what else was done), but it's hardly a frankenbook either.

[showcase4]

The extensive restoration just kills it for me on an Action #1 - it screams frankenbook. With both types of books available in reasonable number, its the unrestored copies that are impressive. Superman 1 is probably the 4th best comic to own, having it unrestored is a knockout and worth the 50% premium over the Action 1.

 

I don't think you can call that book a frankenbook. The only pieces added that are visible from the scan are the squared off spine tip (about a 1/4 inch triangle) at the top spine corner and a larger piece (about a 1 inch triangle) at the bottom spine corner. It looks like the cover was either detached at the lower staple or maybe at both staples, although that's impossible to tell from the scan -- but there has been paper added at the staples to secure the cover to the rest of the book. The vast majority of the image areas (including front and back) is all original material though. Not a whole lot of the line art was recreated; just right along the spine and at the right elbow of the guy at lower left. There doesn't appear to be a ton of color touch anywhere. All I can see is the inpainting on the aforementioned replaced pieces (plus the white along the back spine area) and some color touch along some of the corner creases, spine creases, and a few edge tears. It's certainly not a slight or moderate job (I'd call any book with more than a square inch of "real estate" recreated an extensive job no matter what else was done), but it's hardly a frankenbook either.

 

FFB sure gets a on the subject of resto!

[bluechip]

 

Then don't we need another word (or words) for books with substantially more than a square inch? Without it some unscrupulous seller could say a book with a completely recreated cover is no worse than a book with a square inch replaced. That wouldn't be helpful to those who might be willing to own a book with a fake square inch (hey, you could always remove it) but wouldn't want a virtual xerox cover.

[FFB]

(I'd call any book with more than a square inch of "real estate" recreated an extensive job no matter what else was done), but it's hardly a frankenbook either.

 

Then don't we need another word (or words) for books with substantially more than a square inch? Without it some unscrupulous seller could say a book with a completely recreated cover is no worse than a book with a square inch replaced. That wouldn't be helpful to those who might be willing to own a book with a fake square inch (hey, you could always remove it) but wouldn't want a virtual xerox cover.

 

I don't think the solution is to create yet another word with an arbitrary cut-off point for books with mega-extensive restoration. I think it's better to just describe what was done to the book, and perhaps assign the book a restoration score similar to Matt Nelson's 100 point restoration scale described in the 2d edition of the grading guide. I don't think the 10 point restoration scale proposed by CGC is the right way to do it (for the same reason you note -- a 10 on the restoration scale can mean two books with greatly differing amounts of restoration), although I do think it's an incrementally better way than it has been done by CGC for the past few years. I just wish they would have invited more industry feedback before deciding on a new standard that is likely to become accepted by many collectors simply because CGC does it that way.

[bluechip]

(I'd call any book with more than a square inch of "real estate" recreated an extensive job no matter what else was done), but it's hardly a frankenbook either.

 

Then don't we need another word (or words) for books with substantially more than a square inch? Without it some unscrupulous seller could say a book with a completely recreated cover is no worse than a book with a square inch replaced. That wouldn't be helpful to those who might be willing to own a book with a fake square inch (hey, you could always remove it) but wouldn't want a virtual xerox cover.

 

I don't think the solution is to create yet another word with an arbitrary cut-off point for books with mega-extensive restoration. I think it's better to just describe what was done to the book, and perhaps assign the book a restoration score similar to Matt Nelson's 100 point restoration scale described in the 2d edition of the grading guide. I don't think the 10 point restoration scale proposed by CGC is the right way to do it (for the same reason you note -- a 10 on the restoration scale can mean two books with greatly differing amounts of restoration), although I do think it's an incrementally better way than it has been done by CGC for the past few years. I just wish they would have invited more industry feedback before deciding on a new standard that is likely to become accepted by many collectors simply because CGC does it that way.

 

There is nothing further needed to add to that. well saidl

[ciorac]

Also, there was a 3rd bidder exactly one increment below me on the Action #1 (I barely cleared him with my late bid), so I feel pretty comfortable with market value for a nice-but-heavily-restored Action #1 in the mid-$50,000's.

 

Quite honestly, that is where I figured the book would go all along. I don't track them the way that some of you do, but Action #1 has historically been a 50 - 55K book for me when restored.

 

I don't use the guide or GPA for Action 1 or Detective 27, just experience.

[ciorac]

If Showcase-4 presented us a choice between the two books, I'd chose..... the Superman 1.

 

STEVE

 

OK...if comic characters can make a crossover appearance from one book to another, I will ask a crossover question from one thread to another.

 

We have the $56k restored Action 1, and the $83k unrestored Supes 1. Which one would you choose, and why???

 

Action 1 in a hearbeat. It sold for the right money. Perhaps Supey 1 is worth the 83k, just not to me.