56K for first Superman and 83K for the reprint

[tth2]

Nope, not a spidey fan. I just think Supe 1 considering what it contains is highly overvalued, but heck everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and spend their money how they please. Because of some of the crazy money being spent recently though I hope the prices are not being propped up solely because of another JP in the house.

The high price for Superman #1 is driven in part by how hard it is to find a nice, unrestored copy. Contrast it with Batman #1, which is incredibly abundant in all grades unrestored. Both have yellow covers, but the Superman cover always seems so soiled.

[tth2]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

[action1kid]

Nope, not a spidey fan. I just think Supe 1 considering what it contains is highly overvalued, but heck everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and spend their money how they please. Because of some of the crazy money being spent recently though I hope the prices are not being propped up solely because of another JP in the house.

The high price for Superman #1 is driven in part by how hard it is to find a nice, unrestored copy. Contrast it with Batman #1, which is incredibly abundant in all grades unrestored. Both have yellow covers, but the Superman cover always seems so soiled.

 

Yep, they are always soiled.

[ciorac]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

 

I, in fact, do.

 

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration grading we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

[action1kid]

That is why I wont buy a Batman 1 in 6.0 unrestored because I know it not very scarce even in that grade. Its scarce starting above 7.0 unrestored and Rare above 8.5 I would say. Id love to have Danials 9.0 on comiclink but it is not worth 300k listing price and that is evidenced by it sitting there for what? 2 years? Now that is a gorgious book whos appearence looks even higher than the grade assigned. You have to go to the Link and take a look at a true beauty in our hobby!

[1962]

You are entitled to your opinion. Obviously though owning an Action 1 and Superman 1 you have a vested interest in your opinion. Supe 1 and Action 1 are not ironclad investments, they are collectables. Everything that goes up will come down eventually. Remember when other books were all the rage in the 70's and 80's such as the EC's and the Duck books. There will always be a shifting in interest as time goes on.

[tth2]

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration graing we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

I agree, I think that more info is always a good thing, and I'm all for a more detailed, but practicable, restoration rating system that can fit in the space of a label.

 

My point was more that if restored books are such an undervalued asset, the value of which can be unlocked upon implementation of a better restoration scale, why aren't more smart players scooping them up, on the expectation that at some point a better scale WILL be implemented? In particular the big dealers, who are reputed to have so much influence with CGC (getting CGC to get rid of any explanatory notes on the labels, loosen up grading standards, change the label, etc.), and therefore would be getting in on a sure thing by buying non-frankenbook PLODs and then getting CGC to implement a better scale.

 

At worst the prices stay where they are, and at best they explode in price because of better differentiation. Very little downside that I can see, and yet I don't see PLOD prices moving up in any meaningful manner, which means not enough buyers out there are competing for these so-called undervalued assets.

[showcase4]

Supe 1 and Action 1 are not ironclad investments, they are collectables. Everything that goes up will come down eventually.

 

[tth2]

Everything that goes up will come down eventually. Remember when other books were all the rage in the 70's and 80's such as the EC's and the Duck books. There will always be a shifting in interest as time goes on.

Not the best examples I can think of to support your point, particularly Ducks, that things go down in value. I will happily pay triple (no, quadruple) today for whatever NM Ducks were going for at their hottest price during the 70s and 80s. Hell, let's go nuts, I'll pay 5X!!!

[action1kid]

You are entitled to your opinion. Obviously though owning an Action 1 and Superman 1 you have a vested interest in your opinion. Supe 1 and Action 1 are not ironclad investments, they are collectables. Everything that goes up will come down eventually. Remember when other books were all the rage in the 70's and 80's such as the EC's and the Duck books. There will always be a shifting in interest as time goes on.

 

quote]You are entitled to your opinion. Obviously though owning an Action 1 and Superman 1 you have a vested interest in your opinion. Supe 1 and Action 1 are not ironclad investments, they are collectables. Everything that goes up will come down eventually. Remember when other books were all the rage in the 70's and 80's such as the EC's and the Duck books. There will always be a shifting in interest as time goes on.

 

EC and ducks are not on the scale of Superman 1 and Action 1. There are no other books to conpare to them. Thats why I bought them because I solidly believe in that. I didnt buy them first and than mold that opinion. That opinion was already formed in me than I backed it up with a purchase.My belief before I bought them was that they will NEVER go down. They will stiffle[not raise for a period of time at worst] but never go down.Now remember this fact, Im right so far. They have never gone down. Comparing Action 1 to duck books going down is a very poor analogy.

I respect your opinion. Dont misjudge me.Im enjoying our conversation even though I disagree with it.

[1962]

I should clarify. the Duck books and EC's have definitely gone up in price from 25-30 years ago, but so has the price of everything. Considering inflation I don't think there is a lot of people who would consider these a great investment if they bought them 25-30 years ago. Yes Supe 1 and Action 1 have done very well over the years, but this is not an absolute guarantee they will do as well in the future. Only time will tell.

[action1kid]

I agree. No quarenntees but I just LOVE the odds !

[action1kid]

Quote.Considering inflation I don't think there is a lot of people who would consider these a great investment if they bought them 25-30 years ago.

Your 100 % correct ! People wouldnt, but collectors would .

 

I assume by people you meant the general population.

[tth2]

I should clarify. the Duck books and EC's have definitely gone up in price from 25-30 years ago, but so has the price of everything. Considering inflation I don't think there is a lot of people who would consider these a great investment if they bought them 25-30 years ago. Yes Supe 1 and Action 1 have done very well over the years, but this is not an absolute guarantee they will do as well in the future. Only time will tell.

The value of NM Ducks has well out-paced inflation during the past 25-30 years.

[tth2]

Quote.Considering inflation I don't think there is a lot of people who would consider these a great investment if they bought them 25-30 years ago.

Your 100 % correct ! People wouldnt, but collectors would .

 

I assume by people you meant the general population.

Actually, I think the rate of increase in the value of comics in general has significantly outpaced inflation. If they hadn't, then Delekkerste wouldn't be able to make all his arguments about comics (even excluding Action #1 and Detective #27) being worth a fraction of an average annual salary back in the early 1970s and now being worth multiples of an average annual salary today.

[bluechip]

The point is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide.

 

Bob,

we have been back and forth on this issue before.....you and I. I disagree and think this is unfair to CGC.....they can't slow down their production line like business to write up a multi-faceted, extremely detailed, as much info as humanly possible summary so the consumer can have a 100% crystal clear picture of exactly what has been done to a book down to the atomic level. Furthermore, I don't see a public outcry due to market consideration that calls for a 1" piece replacement to be noted due to a sharp drop in appeal or value if there is a 2" piece replacement instead....our marketplace is not that anal ( yet ) where 1" is Ok and 2" isn't....I just don't see it. Can you imagine seeing an Action 1 come up for sale, and a potential serious buyer says to himself "what a shame...I was ready to bid $45k on that book, but it has a 2" tear seal......if it was only a 1.25" tear seal I would have gone for it"

 

Just like you, I want as much information as possible ... but I don't think CGC has a responsibilty to provide more than they are presently offering. Their purple labels are great, their slight, moderate and extensive designations are great, and their single line summary of work performed is fine for me.......I get the picture every time I read their labels. They are a 3rd party grading service....not a room full of scientists who have to turn in a report that gets read to Congress so tough decisions can be made about global warming.

 

YES --

 

people would be more inclined to buy a book if they knew what was done and they knew it was relatively little.

 

Attempting to belittle it by inventing quotes the sound silly about "a 1.215 tear seal" does not change that.

 

And it doesn't change the fact that such nitpicking is precisely what goes on with people who are obsessed about condition.

 

Purple labels are only great if a person wants to keep the information vague and wants to avoid differentiating between books.

 

They're also "great" if a person wants to drive down the value of restored books.

 

They're "great" if a person -- like an owner of CGC -- doesn't deal in restored books and wants people to focus on condition over content in ways that bolster the value of their own collection and make "more affordable" the items in other people's collections.

 

Finally, and once again, if you don't want the information, then why do you care that other people want it?

 

The bears repeating.-- if you don't want the information, then why do you care that other people want it?

 

Presently the details are absurdly vague. As illustrated by the latest action 1 listed with virtally the same notes as virtually every other restored copy -- pieces added, tears sealed, etc. And people on this board examining speculating whether it has a rebuilt spine.

 

What -- it's too much trouble for CGC tp write the words "rebuilt spine"?

 

We cannot expect them to do that for the money they charge?

 

That suggestion becomes even more absurd when you favtor in that everybody on this board knows tht CGC spends a great deal of time on each high grade copy of Cviil War Unlimited or GI Joe #21.

 

It is ridiculous to say that it's worthwhile to the customer for CGC to take the time to isolate the tiny, almost microscopic differences btween a 9.6 or a 9.9 copy of Wol verine Unlimited #189, but that we simnply and positively cannot expect CGC to differente between restored copies of Action 1 -- the most important comic of all -- to determine which one does or does not have a restored spine.

 

 

 

CGC could easily charge more for the service.

[sacentaur]

...comics (even excluding Action #1 and Detective #27) being worth a fraction of an average annual salary back in the early 1970s and now being worth multiples of an average annual salary today.

 

Good point, Tim.

 

STEVE

[sacentaur]

Just for the record, bluechip and I are not the same person

 

STEVE

[bluechip]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

 

Your poiint is worth noting from an investment standpoint.

 

But from a standpoint of comolaining about harmful manipulation of the market, it is not fair to say a person's ONLY recource should and must be that they buy lots of lots of what they feel others are driving down. IFirst, because people shouldn't have to do that. Second, because they may not be in a position to do that.

 

Look in any market and you will always see that the person manuipulating a market is always the first one to tell you that the way to get head is to irgnore the fact they are driving down the value of what you already have and to put lots of money into buuing f(from them) the things that they own.

[ciorac]

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration graing we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

I agree, I think that more info is always a good thing, and I'm all for a more detailed, but practicable, restoration rating system that can fit in the space of a label.

 

My point was more that if restored books are such an undervalued asset, the value of which can be unlocked upon implementation of a better restoration scale, why aren't more smart players scooping them up, on the expectation that at some point a better scale WILL be implemented? In particular the big dealers, who are reputed to have so much influence with CGC (getting CGC to get rid of any explanatory notes on the labels, loosen up grading standards, change the label, etc.), and therefore would be getting in on a sure thing by buying non-frankenbook PLODs and then getting CGC to implement a better scale.

 

At worst the prices stay where they are, and at best they explode in price because of better differentiation. Very little downside that I can see, and yet I don't see PLOD prices moving up in any meaningful manner, which means not enough buyers out there are competing for these so-called undervalued assets.

 

We are in agreement for the most part.

 

Why do the large dealers not buy the non-frankenbook restored books "en masse"? I surely don't know. I know they buy them, because they are always selling them. They, like most retailers, go for the sure thing and the quick buck. Right now that is high grade (actually it has been for a long time). So from their perspective perhaps, they would just as soon wait and see what the market bears out once the the new scale goes into effect.

 

I don't think the label will have to be overly vebose. Once the agreed upon numerical equivalent to repair types matix is determined they can simply assign the purple label with a number.

 

For example: Apparent 7.0 - Restoration Scale 5.0 Professional

 

Something along those lines would be simple to incorporate. The work is in establishing the matrices.

 

And if you want to see some non-frakenbook nicely restored golden age key hoarding, stop by some time when you are stateside!