Are these books really that Mis-Cut?

[JoeHawk-migration]

Actually, Eastern Color Printing, INVENTORS of the comic book in the 1930's printed complete comic books, not just covers, right up until 1971 or so when they moved to Avon. They printed comics for most of the major comic companies, and all of Marvel's new Superhero lineup starting in 1961.

 

Here's a quote from a fellow's website that should help to clear this fact up:

 

"I was lucky. My dad worked in a factory, but not just any old factory. He worked in a comic book factory. The Eastern Color Printing Company, to be exact, the company that invented the comic book way back in 1933.

 

"When I was a kid, my old man brought home a bundle of comic books for my sister and I every evening. She preferred Dennis the Menace and Millie the Model, whereas I preferred the horror and science fiction titles, although I did get a kick out of some of Dennis the Menace's adventures, too.

 

"In the late summer of 1961, Dad brought home a new kind of comic book: a "Marvel" comic book featuring the first appearance of the Fantastic Four. After reading and rereading and still rereading Fantastic Four No. 1, I lost interest in the horror and science fiction titles and began looking forward to the exploits of the Fantastic Four and later Marvel superheroes (or anti-superheroes) like Spiderman, Hulk, Submariner, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, etc."

 

http://www2.arrl.org/news/features/2003/08/01/3/?nc=1

 

[Aman619]

hey, does anyone else find this last post just a LITTLE too convenient??

How about a newbie with one post and 5 stars???

[sfilosa]

hey, does anyone else find this last post just a LITTLE too convenient??

How about a newbie with one post and 5 stars???

 

I figured I wouldn't even respond. What's he trying to prove?

 

 

[JoeHawk-migration]

to my knowledge, Eastern Color only printed the covers. And shipped them to Sparta where they were converted with the newsprint pages. It is themn lik ely that Eastern Color would have "file" copies (samples) of their color printing in their files or billing records...but NO completed comics! WHY would Sparta send them copies for their "files"??? Why would one vendor of the publishers supply a different vendor with samples of work (a finished comic book) that wasnt theirs?? And why would Eastern ever want them for their files if they already have their work th euncut covers??

 

The earlier above "knowledge" posted by you is in error. Excuse me for being a "newbie" to the boards -- does that somehow make my earlier response and the link I dropped in rebutting your position invalid, or non-deserving of debate?

[Aman619]

Joe relax. Out of nowhere comes a personal anecdote that is contrary to general comics history "knowledge". Is this website your "proof" that what it says is "fact"? Or do you have other information..... or do you just want to debate? I dont.

 

One of the issues here on these boards as long as Ive been here (5 short months ago I was newbie like you) is people dropping in from out of nowhere with comments facts and charges only to turn out to have been one of the regulars of ill repute back with a new identity.

 

I have seen most of the regulars bristle at a post like yours. it seemed odd that out of nowhere was this child's reminiscence of Dad coming home with books from work. Especially since he worked at Eastern Color. In the comics biz, eastern Color is sadly as well-known for their comics covers printing as they are for the piles of uncut covers that were found and married to beat up comics and sold as NM file copies.

 

Any story relating to Eastern Color, like yours, is met with skepticism.

 

hows that?

[supapimp]

One of the issues here on these boards as long as Ive been here (5 short months ago I was newbie like you) is people dropping in from out of nowhere with comments facts and charges only to turn out to have been one of the regulars of ill repute back with a new identity.

 

 

[greggy]

Joe relax. Out of nowhere comes a personal anecdote that is contrary to general comics history "knowledge". Is this website your "proof" that what it says is "fact"? Or do you have other information..... or do you just want to debate? I dont.

 

One of the issues here on these boards as long as Ive been here (5 short months ago I was newbie like you) is people dropping in from out of nowhere with comments facts and charges only to turn out to have been one of the regulars of ill repute back with a new identity.

 

I have seen most of the regulars bristle at a post like yours. it seemed odd that out of nowhere was this child's reminiscence of Dad coming home with books from work. Especially since he worked at Eastern Color. In the comics biz, eastern Color is sadly as well-known for their comics covers printing as they are for the piles of uncut covers that were found and married to beat up comics and sold as NM file copies.

 

Any story relating to Eastern Color, like yours, is met with skepticism.

 

hows that?

Well..comics were printed in Eastern Color in Waterbury, CT according to a long time dealer in my area until they got moved to Sparta, IL in the later 60s or the early 70s. So...you may be skeptical of who the poster may be but complete comics were printed at Easter Color.

[Aman619]

I had always been informed the other way. Where is this info written down in a definitive way? Has Beerbohm worked on this area yet? I'm consulting my "expert in the hole" as we speak and hope to have an answer.

[greggy]

I had always been informed the other way. Where is this info written down in a definitive way? Has Beerbohm worked on this area yet? I'm consulting my "expert in the hole" as we speak and hope to have an answer.

What's there to work out? Comics were printed in Waterbury. Not just covers. Just because they kept files of some uncut covers doesn't mean that they didn't produce the whole comics. Hell, Jack Adler, the colorist for DCs kept cover proofs made in Sparta! Does that mean Sparta only printed the covers? BTW...you think shipping covers from CT to IL on a weekly basis is feasible or efficient? Good luck in finding your proof!

[Aman619]

work on not work out. Has he researched and written about this area is the question I asked..

 

I may be wrong...but how are you any more sure than me? ..are you guessing too? or repeating what you have been told, as I am?

 

You may in fact be right, shipping covers would be expensive. But I imagined that eastern CHOSE to specilaize in covers, rather than invest in the huge webpresses that Sparta already had a good business in....Also, that Eastern kept the business since they were close to NY and DC and Marvel. There was no Fedex then so proximity meant a lot as covers were done over a few time quite often (covers were more complicated printing-wise than the crappy newsprint insides). And trucking would be an overnight delivery to Illinois...big deal. AND, finally, Sparta was centrally located in the US, making nationwide distribution of the finished comics much easier and cheaper than doing it from Connecticut! also (edited to add the following) Eastern may have lost the business of printing the insides to Sparta at some point for the reasons I stated. but kept the cover work...for a number of years until Sparta got the entire business with volume discounts etc... For all these reasons, the story as I have always heard it made sense to me.

 

So what is your opinion on the subject based on?

[greggy]

Here's my proof with pictures. First is the indicia to Captain Savage 1 showing that it was printed at Easter Color in Waterbury and the second is from Avengers 71 showing it was printed at World Color press in Sparta.

 

Captain Savage 1 indicia

 

Avengers 71 indiicia

 

I believe that this is all I have to say on the subject!

[Aman619]

oh sure I'm supposed to believe some tiny letters on the inside of a comic book. sheesh.

damn - - busted! and I've been telling that story for years with no problem till you came along....

grumble. Does that mean Joe Hawk isn't Comic-keys either??? just not my night...

 

I'm trying here but there just doesnt seem to be any way out of this. good job.

[greggy]

oh sure I'm supposed to believe some tiny letters on the inside of a comic book. sheesh.

damn - - busted! and I've been telling that story for years with no problem till you came along....

grumble. Does that mean Joe Hawk isn't Comic-keys either??? just not my night...

 

I'm trying here but there just doesnt seem to be any way out of this. good job.

 

Don't mess with greggy when he's serious!

 

Luckily I had some friggin' Marvels left. The DCs that I had from the mid-1960s only said that it was printed in the US. However, it said that it was published in Sparta? Perhaps DCs moved over earlier to Sparta, as I don't recall ever seeing Easter Color cover files for DCs!

[JoeHawk-migration]

I had always been informed the other way. Where is this info written down in a definitive way? Has Beerbohm worked on this area yet? I'm consulting my "expert in the hole" as we speak and hope to have an answer.

What's there to work out? Comics were printed in Waterbury. Not just covers. Just because they kept files of some uncut covers doesn't mean that they didn't produce the whole comics. Hell, Jack Adler, the colorist for DCs kept cover proofs made in Sparta! Does that mean Sparta only printed the covers? BTW...you think shipping covers from CT to IL on a weekly basis is feasible or efficient? Good luck in finding your proof!

 

Greggy is right, Eastern Color Printing (inventors of the comic book) did not only produce comic book covers, but entire comic books right up until their closing of the Waterbury plant in 1971 (?) or '72. They were the first ones to fold 16 pg Sunday newspaper sections into the 64 pg. tabloid format in the 30's, and Max Gaines (Bill Gaines' father), who worked at Eastern Color gets most of the credit for the idea:

 

 

1933 - Harry L. Wildenberg and Max. C. Gaines, employees of Eastern Color Printing Company figured two printer plates could fit on a tabloid page and produced a 7 1/2 by 10 inch book when folded, making the first comic book. This era also saw the appearance of Mickey Mouse, Tracey, Flash Gordon and others.

 

toronto.com > Profile > Canadian National Comic Book Expo (expired)

 

It later became the 8 pg (folded to 32) format we have today. Bill Gaines inherited his dad's interest in Eastern Color and named his personal comic book company "EC" (Entertaining Comics) after the initials of Eastern Color ("EC") who actually printed them, along with Dell, Harvey, Timely/Atlas/Marvel, etc.

 

Eastern Color printed the "pulp paper" Sunday comics sections for most U.S. newspapers, and even for Mexican and Canadian newspapers and shipped them out weekly.

 

Here's a quote (and page link) from Bob Hyde, a highly respected Fandom authority who did a tour of the Eastern Color plant in 1949:

 

The year 1949 continued to be one of happy events for me; another step on my long, adventurous journey with Tarzan. One of my friends at Yale, who came from Waterbury, Connecticut, told me that a printing plant there printed color Sunday comic sections for many newspapers. So I called the plant manager of Eastern Color Printing Company and set up an appointment to see him. On a Saturday morning in April, I borrowed a car and drove to Waterbury. I was interested in the process of producing the comics (especially the Tarzan page). The manager was very willing to explain the process to me. It involved using the plates sent to him by the newspaper syndicates for the four colors of ink used. He explained how much color was applied at very high speeds, but with consideration for the split-second time necessary to dry the ink between colors. He gave me a guided tour throughout the plant, spending about three hours to show me how everything operated, and explaining the function of the large printing presses. He said that they printed comics for about a hundred newspapers. I came away with several sample pages of Tarzan printed for different newspapers, including one in Spanish. One of the interesting facts I learned was that twice as much yellow ink was needed as red, blue, or black ink. If yellow wasn't applied heavily enough, it would tend to fade away and not be visible at all.

 

 

ERBzin-e 691: Hyde Odyssey XII-XIV - Illustrated Version

 

 

On a website (New Haven Railroad Forum) discussing the history of that railroad and the famous companies it served, comes this post:

Re: Famous companys that where served by the newhaven railro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Eastern Color Printing Company, Waterbury. Eastern Color invented the comic book. The company printed comic books and Sunday funnies through the early 1970s, when the company moved to Avon. Newsprint was delivered to Eastern Color by rail."

http://pub97.ezboard.com/fthenhrhtanewhavenrailroadforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=516.topic

 

Where, and what is Eastern Printing Company doing now?

 

"Eastern Color

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

was located at the corner of Thomaston Ave and West Main St. If you stood in front of the MacDonalds in what was the Colonial Plaza and looked across Thomaston Ave you saw the building's broadside. It's siding was just as you crossed over the West Main St. Highland Div Bridge. The building is still there but Eastern Color is in Avon now and operates as Pro-Line Printing with their main focus on newspaper inserts and bulk mailed flyers for the likes of Home Depot etc. "

 

http://pub97.ezboard.com/fthenhrhtanewhavenrailroadforumfrm2.showMessage?topicID=516.topic

 

 

Eastern Color printed Sunday pages and complete comic books right up until their closing in '71 or '72 when they ,oved to Avon and became Pro Line.

[ArAich]

Thanks for the history...but what about the issue at hand...

 

Why are the books in question so badley mis-cut???

Was Eastern Color known for lax quality control resulting in extremly poor quality in the binding process?

Are the books in question actually married issues many years after the printing process has occured?...

 

The history lesson is nice and nostalgic but the true issue is ...what is up with these books...

[sfilosa]

The negative feedback that was left for the seller has been removed.

 

I still wouldn't buy "raw" books for this seller at this time.

 

It's like saying here's a nice lot of very clean, very white near mint books. Now all the one's sold already came back "cleaned and pressed" but these are from a different collection and aren't cleaned and pressed.

 

Maybe, Maybe Not.

 

Not going to risk my money on the NOT.

[JoeHawk-migration]

Thanks for the history...but what about the issue at hand...

 

Why are the books in question so badley mis-cut???

Was Eastern Color known for lax quality control resulting in extremly poor quality in the binding process?

Are the books in question actually married issues many years after the printing process has occured?...

 

The history lesson is nice and nostalgic but the true issue is ...what is up with these books...

 

FANDOM's collecting has gone through several various stages to reach the present "CGC Age", which is perhaps the most demanding, and helps to weed out the "cheat books" in some collectors' minds -- but not to all, and CGC is still making adjustments, so let's give them credit for what they're doing. They'll eventually re-define "married covers" to mean something like: "obvious replacement of hi-grade cover attached to low-grade interior pages." Which is a total rip-off if the seller did this and did not admit to such while selling.

 

First stage (1968 -- 1977), there were only GOOD, FINE, and MINT comic books. There were no "restored books" or "married covers" and "File Copy" was used to describe just about every VF book to come along. Then Chuck Rozansky's Mile High (Edgar Church) collection was found (1977), and the condition of the books (24,000 -- 26,000 books) was so damn nice that both FINE and MINT had to be re-defined.

 

As an aside, ever notice that there are no Golden Age Disneys or Funny Animal stuff in the Mile High books -- ? Chuck told me personally many years ago that Edgar's wife had trashed all of them (which were in another cellar room as large as where the books he did buy were kept-- but that's another story if anyone wants further comment on it, let me know) before he was called in. "I won't be cheated! Mrs. Church said, "I know exactly what these books are worth!" Chuck cringed, "whatever you feel is fair..." "Not all of these books are only worth 10 cents each--some cost 25 cents!"

 

So....leaving out a lot of other data, let's say for the sake of argument that after '77 comic grading became more precise and collectors more demanding.

 

There were several nice condition comic book finds before '77, and Eastern Color (the subject at hand) was one of them--but the original buyer(s) of that collection bought file copies, coverless books, unstapled, unfolded pages, cut and uncut covers (proof sheet covers) and even miscut and miswrapped comics that never left the plant and somehow survived in storage. The buyer(s) in one instance, hauled a truckload of the above back to a comic book store in a small town in Northern CA, where they then quietly put out the word to serious collectors of what they had. The first group of people in bought the assembled file copies that weren't marked or defaced with stamps and most of the MINT condition Golden Age cover proofs. So hundreds, possibly thousands of Eastern Color Golden Age/Silver Age books in very nice condition merged quietly into the marketplace, and perhaps bear blue CGC labels to this day.

 

The next group in got the leftovers so to speak: the cheaper books (Atlas Horror was worth about $1 - $3 each in 1972) the coverless and defaced (stamped) file copies, inconsequential books, and folded and unfolded cover proofs. These books also made their way into the marketplace without any mention of where they came from. What difference did it make in 1972--? Pedigrees were for dogs and cats back then--not comic books!

 

Second Stage: after the Mile High find in '77 (and others) of high grade gold/silver age we all became more "condition conscious" than ever -- we now have Poor, Fair, Good, Fine, Very Fine, Near Mint and (unattainable) Mint condition book prices in the Overstreet Guide. So here come the professional (undetectable) restoration experts like Susan Ciaccone, and a host of other fine art restorers with rice paper and acrylics and chemical washes-- and for several years you had to wait for months to get your book worked on by them! And you did get MORE money for the restored book -- but at least the scotch-tape on the spines was no longer permissable!

 

Third Stage: Wall Street and Investment Brokerage Houses got into the comic collecting field. Even to this day you can instruct your broker to invest your money in expensive comic books. Why is an Amazing Spider-Man #1 which sold for $30.00 in 1971 now selling for $20,000--? In the early 90's Sotheby's and Christy's made record auction sales -- $12,000, $15,000 -- etc. For those of us who know--those auction bids were "arranged" to increase their value artificially, sort of like the 1980's silver market manipulation.

 

Talking $330,000 for a high-grade Detective #27 nowadays--who wants a restored book at that price? Time to get out the Black Light when buying!

 

Within the last few years along comes some enterprising fellows with a great idea to check comics for restoration with state-of-the-art detection equipment and the best advice and tenure from a few "Founding Fathers" on how to classify the grading (i.e Bruce Hamilton and others) in order to take the risk out of buying-- and, to detect counterfeits! Imagine a counterfeit Superman #1 or Marvel Comics #1. Just about any local print shop could make one -- but not with the inks and paper of the 1930's -- and CGC's experts would spot it in a micro-second, even if we wouldn't.

 

Miscut and miswrapped books never rec'd a lower grading in the not-too-distant-past because there were so many (perhaps 1 out of 25) in the original runs, moreso per se than "double covers" which still bring a premium. But now they are called "trimmed" books, and whether done in the original press run or not, they are suspect and will get a purple Restored label today.

 

CGC isn't perfect yet, but they're trying very hard. Comic books with married high-grade covers and high grade white/off-white interiors with no detection of chemical washes are a far cry from married covers to yellow and tan acidifying pages. In a few short years the covers will be turning brown from the pages in any case.

 

All comic covers started out as proof sheets and were cut down--all pages started out as unfolded 4-page sheets and were folded. If CGC says that assembling the parts (even if they are pristine) is "marrying" and this demotes the value of the book, then that's the way it is. If they later re-define the term, then that's the way it will be.

 

Collecting Golden Age and Silver Age comics used to be FUN to flip through the pages! With them now sealed inside of a clear plastic coffin, perhaps for forever -- they are IMHO merely the newest boring "Coin of the Realm" like so many Gold and Silver Certificate currency bills, or old stocks -- which, all you can do with is look at the front and back side. But CGC "encapsulating" is needed because "investors" need to be assured of the provable value of their "investment". Some die-hard collectors, once their books are graded and authenticated, re-open the CGC holders and replace the books back in their collections where they can be held and read, requiring re-certification again perhaps if they ever want to sell (usually its their heirs after they die) the book(s) -- and that is why CGC makes a holder that can be opened without damaging the book.

 

Are the comics in question "married covers" -- by today's terms, yes. But are they used covers married to used pages--? It doesn't seem likely. Stan Lee's "file copy" books in poor to very good condition only sold last year in Chicago for multiples of Guide -- this is a changing collector hobby, almost day by day it seems.

 

 

[supapimp]

[ArAich]

Thank you sir for your polite and concise response in actually answering the question...

The history lesson is much appreciated...

[drbanner]

As an aside, ever notice that there are no Golden Age Disneys or Funny Animal stuff in the Mile High books -- ? Chuck told me personally many years ago that Edgar's wife had trashed all of them

 

I thought the deal was that the collector that helped Chuckie come up with the $$ for the deal got to pick up some of the books, and he picked the Four Colors? In any event, thanks for the explanation hammer...

 

Wasn't there quite a big fiasco several years back about an unscrupulous dealer selling "Eastern File Copies" like these as original, unrestored books? Didn't they get a bad rep for this? I only recall this b/c Michael Naiman had a small piece in a recent CBM market report about this character showing up on ebay selling the same type of stuff - apparently super high-grade books with undisclosed restoration.