Which is more valuable: Original art from Action 1 or Mint Action 1?

[delekkerste]

Money is funny. The more you've got...the less you want. The more you're able to spend/waste on non-essentials the higher the price tag of what you do want. Ask yourself if you prove these theories of mine in your own life. I do.

 

Hi Michael -

 

I do think you make a very good point here. I have been enjoying a good joust on the Action #1 cover vs. comic argument with a fellow board member via PMs and he pointed out in his last message all the huge amounts of money that are out there and that so many people could drop $2 million on the cover without batting an eye it's not funny. After all, look at the guy who just dropped $17 million on the Warhol Mao painting, he said. I agree with you that, for a lot of people, once you have the ability to spend $17 million for a Warhol or $80 million for a Jasper Johns (Ken Griffin) or 9-figures for a pre-elbowed Picasso (Stevie Cohen), that you just don't give a hoot about a $2 million piece of art (let alone a piece of comic book art if you were never part of that sub-culture which is not universal and cross-cultural like fine art).

 

To be at the top of the comic book/comic book art hobby, it almost seems as though you have to (a) been indoctrinated into the hobby at a young age and (b) not get so rich that you outgrow it!! I mean, if you get so wealthy that you can afford to vacuum up key books and key OA without blinking an eye, how exciting would that be for you (yes, you Steven Spielberg and George Lucas)? Chances are, at that point, you might be setting your sights higher.

 

Even in my own personal experience, I find that many of the things that interested me when I was making less money (both comic-related and non-comic related things like certain cars or types of real estate) do not interest me in the least these days, even things I supposedly wanted desperately since childhood. I suspect that some of the stuff I am interested in today might not be of interest to me in a few years if I am able to continue to improve my lot in life (knock on wood). It's the nature of collecting...

 

 

What am I now lusting after? The cra@p I can't and - from my current perspective - cannot ever afford...Basquiat (sure laugh! I see it even if you don't!!), Picasso, Lichtenstein (see I still like comics), Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Warhol and about a million other artists you haven't heard of - dead and alive. Take a run through any recent Sothey's or Christie's contemporary art catalog - about half of it I desperately want. Everything's got a $100k+ price tag on it. If I was Gates, Lucas, Spielberg, I could easily afford it and guarantee you I wouldn't want it. Too easy.

 

I actually like Basquiat quite a bit - I went to see his retrospective at the Brooklyn Museum of Art twice in 2005.

 

Gene

[tth2]

I do think you make a very good point here. I have been enjoying a good joust on the Action #1 cover vs. comic argument with a fellow board member via PMs and he pointed out in his last message all the huge amounts of money that are out there and that so many people could drop $2 million on the cover without batting an eye it's not funny. After all, look at the guy who just dropped $17 million on the Warhol Mao painting, he said. I agree with you that, for a lot of people, once you have the ability to spend $17 million for a Warhol or $80 million for a Jasper Johns (Ken Griffin) or 9-figures for a pre-elbowed Picasso (Stevie Cohen), that you just don't give a hoot about a $2 million piece of art (let alone a piece of comic book art if you were never part of that sub-culture which is not universal and cross-cultural like fine art).

But are there not also people who, even if $2 million is a pittance for them, also like buying items that they think are undervalued on the expectation that they can sell it later at a big profit and look like a genius to their peers? I've found that if there's one thing the mega-wealthy like to do more than buy huge trophies to show off to their friends, it's to buy something on the cheap and then sell it at a huge profit later, reinforcing that they're the smartest guy in the room and could see value where no one else could. There are guys in HK who would much rather brag about how they bought a $200K house in Vancouver and sold it for $1 million a few years later than the fact that just spent $10 million on a place in Knightsbridge.

 

People are also sheep, even sophisticated, deep-pocketed collectors. If there were suddenly a perception among the ultra-moneyed that commercial art was hot (and it would just take an influential collector or two to start such a perception), the amount of money that could move in quickly would be astounding.

 

Anyways, if all rich people behaved the way you make them out to, then what is a guy like John Tudor Jones doing collecting mere $80K duck decoys?

[delekkerste]

Anyways, if all rich people behaved the way you make them out to, then what is a guy like John Tudor Jones doing collecting mere $80K duck decoys?

 

Well, that proves my point - Paul Tudor Jones has the ability to outbid all of the competition for duck decoys, and yet Forbes did a profile a while back about a die-hard duck decoy collector who wins his fair share of auctions and has amassed one of the best collections out there. Just because PTJ is a billionaire doesn't mean he'll pay $800K for an $80K item, and he probably spends almost zero time actually seeking out duck decoys. Furthermore, I'm guessing as a Southern gentleman that PTJ probably grew up hunting and fishing (he is a big conservationist if I recall correctly) and has a longtime attachment to outdoor-related activities, goods and collectibles.

 

After you've grossed billions and spawned a pop culture phenomenon like George Lucas or won Academy Awards like Steven Spielberg, I'm guessing buying the cover to Action #1 wouldn't exactly be as big a deal or give the same thrill to these guys as it would you or me. And I'm pretty sure the likes of other comic-collecting moneyed celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio are probably too busy banging supermodels and hanging with Al Gore to pay much attention to the goings on in the comic art world. Comic collecting is a hobby to people like this, and probably not even a big one at that given that they've barely made a ripple in the hobby, let alone a wave - it's not a way of life. It has and always will be the die-hard, longtime, collecting maniacs who end up with most of the best stuff, because they are willing to aggressively seek out, network, deal, spend, etc. in ways that the part-time collectors, even those with fabulous money, are not.

 

You know it makes sense!!

[vodou]

And I'm pretty sure the likes of other comic-collecting moneyed celebrities like Leonardo DiCaprio are probably too busy banging supermodels and hanging with Al Gore to pay much attention to the goings on in the comic art world. Comic collecting is a hobby to people like this, and probably not even a big one at that given that they've barely made a ripple in the hobby, let alone a wave - it's not a way of life.

 

Since you named DiCaprio...he does collect original art. See http://www.rovetv.net/celebrity.html for more on celebrity art collectors. Here's what they say about Leo:

 

"Leonardo DiCaprio first began looking at art in the mid-nineties. Under the guidance of art adviser Patrick Callery Leo bought a portrait of rapper Biggie Smalls prophetically depicted amidst tombstones in a cemetery by rock and celebrity photographer Michael Lavine and a couple of minor Jean-Michel Basquiats. Leo also bought the work of Christian Schumann, a young painter educated at the Art Institute of San Francisco in the style of cartoons mixed with elements of academic realism. Schumann’s paintings reflect an MTV sensibility of jump-cut edits and wildly colorful pop imagery lifted from record album covers, incorporating a soup of other elements like text and geometric abstraction."

 

They forgot to mention that he's also a heavy collector of Todd Schorr and Mark Ryden. Just goes to show that people may collect with comic book sensibilities but with all that disposable cash will go up, up, and away from actual comic art. These guys go after the high-end Juxtapoz artist circuit. And I wish I was there too!

 

http://www.toddschorr.com/

http://www.markryden.com/

http://www.earlmcgrathgallery.com/galleryartists/white/who%20are%20parents/index.html

 

It may not make sense (to we comic art collectors), but a Ryden painting is the same price as a top Kirby FF cover. Maybe Leo has top Kirby too, but I don't see any press on it.

[tth2]

Just because PTJ is a billionaire doesn't mean he'll pay $800K for an $80K item, and he probably spends almost zero time actually seeking out duck decoys.

You keep missing my point. I DON'T think most wealthy people spend money like drunk sailors (at least the ones who made their own fortune), so no, I don't think they will pay double what something is actually worth just because it would be less than 0.001 of their net worth. But I do think they will pay what they think something is worth for something that might be of interest to them. I think the Action 1 cover is such a thing.

 

The reason I mentioned Spielberg and Lucas is not because they are rich guys. The reason is that they apparently do have an interest in American pop culture and are familiar with comic OA, so it's not such a stretch to think they might be interested. The way you make it sound, no one with money could be bothered to own anything worth less than 5% of their net worth, which is obviously silly. Doesn't Spielberg have MAD-related items that are just a drop in the bucket to him?

 

It has and always will be the die-hard, longtime, collecting maniacs who end up with most of the best stuff, because they are willing to aggressively seek out, network, deal, spend, etc. in ways that the part-time collectors, even those with fabulous money, are not.

Of course, which is why Nic Cage had such a mediocre comic collection which was of no interest to "real" collectors.

[vodou]

Maybe the real unspoken question here is "what would happen if two ultra-wealthy collectors were in a bidding war for Action #1 cover (or whatever)?"

 

The reason this is an interesting question is because we've yet to see it happen, while on many occasions we've already seen "what would happen if one ultra-wealthy collector was in a bidding war for Action #1 cover (or whatever)?" Not for Action #1 cover but you get the point. The result is that single ultra-wealthy collector outbids the well-heeled but not particularly rich collector by one bid increment. This doesn't make for fabulous headlines or heated discussion of value on Internet boards because the final hammer price is only slightly above what we're used to seeing. And the rest of the world remains fazed ("you didn't really pay that much for that drawing, did you?!") but unamazed.

 

Back to the two ultra-wealthy collectors...this is where we'd see something like a McFarlane Spidey cover (both collectors have a child that MUST have that exact piece, or some similar story) sell for $150k, or a June Brigman Power Pack cover go for $25k, etc. So when/if this situation ever arises and it's the "right" piece (major key, with lots of cross-cultural demand and bragging rights) we'll all see what "losing your cool" in an auction setting can do...because if Spielberg and Lucas both desperately wanted and had to have the original cover to Action #1 it would keep going up until one of them could accept losing the piece and being on the front pages (or at least prominently featured in the Entertainment section) as the loser.

[delekkerste]

The reason I mentioned Spielberg and Lucas is not because they are rich guys. The reason is that they apparently do have an interest in American pop culture and are familiar with comic OA, so it's not such a stretch to think they might be interested. The way you make it sound, no one with money could be bothered to own anything worth less than 5% of their net worth, which is obviously silly. Doesn't Spielberg have MAD-related items that are just a drop in the bucket to him?

 

When was the last time anyone here lost an eBay or Heritage auction to George Lucas or Steven Spielberg? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Frye? Spielberg has the Mad #1 cover, but didn't he get a long time ago? How many guys his age and with as much other stuff going on in his life do you still see dying with anticipation for the next Heritage Signature sale?

 

You are perpetuating the myth of the celebrity/well-moneyed outsider collector - "well, surely given the legions of fabulously wealthy Hollywood/Wall Street/Silicon Valley/Petrodollar/Oligarch/Etc. people out there, SOMEONE must have an interest in _____________ (insert name of high profile collectible here) and be willing to shell out __ hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars for it!" And yet, there are probably more Bigfoot sightings than there are sightings of fabulously wealthy outsiders swooping into our hobby and make big purchases. Even the ones we KNOW have an interest in comics or American pop culture haven't done jack squat in terms of impacting our hobby. So Spielberg owns the Mad #1 cover...does anybody rank "Steven Spielberg" among the top OA collectors? Do mere mortal OA collectors cringe in fear that George Lucas will come in and snipe them on eBay? Sheesh, if I'm going to believe in the myth of the celebrity collector, I might as well believe in the Loch Ness Monster, the Yeti and that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't dive!!

 

 

Of course, which is why Nic Cage had such a mediocre comic collection which was of no interest to "real" collectors.

 

He was one guy, out of how many? Did he use his fortune to utterly dominate GA collecting so that guys like Mark Zaid cringed in fear that they would never be able to buy anything good again?

 

Bsh, of course not...and, in the end, he got out and became a footnote in the hobby's history, nothing more or less.

[dem1138]

Yeah but what about Glen Danzig or John Dolmyan (sp?) or Kirk Hammett or Eric Roberts or Dave Mandel or Graham Nash? They're not Spielberg, but they have a couple of dollars to spend on the hobby...

 

And these are only people who are publicly OA collectors...Metropolis/Fischler will tell you that they have privately acquired books/art for some very notable collectors...

[dem1138]

...and on top of that, how many wealthy/prominent Doctors, Lawyers, Financiers, Business owners, etc. do we know who have dropped serious coin on OA? Just because we don't talk about them publicly with regards to their wealth, doesn't mean that we don't know that they are out there and what they have spent/bought.

 

It wouldn't necessarily take a Spielberg or whomever to spark a huge bidding war. Apparently it was such a personal bidding war in the last Heritage auction that spurred the ASM 20 Scorpion

page to go for almost 40K.

 

There are some prominent collectors that could liquidate their collections pretty quickly and make a serious run at anything significant that hit the hobby.

[delekkerste]

Yeah but what about Glen Danzig or John Dolmyan (sp?) or Kirk Hammett or Eric Roberts or Dave Mandel or Graham Nash? They're not Spielberg, but they have a couple of dollars to spend on the hobby...

 

And these are only people who are publicly OA collectors...Metropolis/Fischler will tell you that they have privately acquired books/art for some very notable collectors...

 

Last time I checked, Dave Mandel and Eric Roberts (the collector, not the actor) were not celebrities. Didn't Graham Nash sell off everything? When was the last time Kirk Hammett bought any comic art? Last I heard he was selling, not buying. I'm pretty sure Danzig is in the same boat; I just took two excellent Vampi pieces from him last week. Dolmayan? Sure, he's an active collector, but I wouldn't say he's made a huge market impact by any stretch of the imagination. And, by the way, I saw him negotiating with Albert Moy once; he definitely did not come off as the kind of guy who just throws money around - it definitely looked like he was trying to get a good deal like everyone else.

 

In any case, with the exception of the two guys you named who are long-time collectors, not celebrities, I don't see this mythical celebrity presence out there hoovering up all the key comics and OA. Even if Fishler & Co. have a celebrity client list, the fact that we don't notice all these awesome collectibles disappearing into a celebrity buying black hole tells you that, in the greater scheme of things, their impact on the hobby has been minimal.

 

Plus, the ability to pay $100-$250k for something and $1-$2 million plus are something else entirely. Almost all of the doctors, lawyers and minor celebs that you mention who could spend the former amount easily would get weeded out by the time you reached the latter figures. If you live in NYC and make $10 million a year, do you realize that your marginal tax rate is 47.6%? Your takehome pay is maybe $5.5 million - even though you are "making 8 figures" and can theoretically "afford" to pay $2 million for something, chances are you're not going to be willing to blow more than a third of your income on a single comic book or piece of comic art. Think about that for a moment. You really need to have an ENORMOUS fortune and have the longtime, obsessive interest to do that. For some inexplicable reason, the odds of the two coming together are astronomical, if the empirical evidence is any indication.

[batman_fan]

This is a great thread. Lots of interesting points. I am more in the Gene camp here. I don't see a huge shift going on in the OA areana. What would the Action 1 cover sell for? Who knows. Make for an interesting debate but no one knows for sure and everything people throw out is just a guess, maybe an educated guess, but still just that. I look at some of the Golden-Age Cover sales that recently went off and I was surprised by how low they went. Guess the big buyers didn't see those in the Auction Catalog.

[tth2]

The reason I mentioned Spielberg and Lucas is not because they are rich guys. The reason is that they apparently do have an interest in American pop culture and are familiar with comic OA, so it's not such a stretch to think they might be interested. The way you make it sound, no one with money could be bothered to own anything worth less than 5% of their net worth, which is obviously silly. Doesn't Spielberg have MAD-related items that are just a drop in the bucket to him?

 

When was the last time anyone here lost an eBay or Heritage auction to George Lucas or Steven Spielberg? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Frye? Spielberg has the Mad #1 cover, but didn't he get a long time ago? How many guys his age and with as much other stuff going on in his life do you still see dying with anticipation for the next Heritage Signature sale?

 

You are perpetuating the myth of the celebrity/well-moneyed outsider collector - "well, surely given the legions of fabulously wealthy Hollywood/Wall Street/Silicon Valley/Petrodollar/Oligarch/Etc. people out there, SOMEONE must have an interest in _____________ (insert name of high profile collectible here) and be willing to shell out __ hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars for it!" And yet, there are probably more Bigfoot sightings than there are sightings of fabulously wealthy outsiders swooping into our hobby and make big purchases. Even the ones we KNOW have an interest in comics or American pop culture haven't done jack squat in terms of impacting our hobby. So Spielberg owns the Mad #1 cover...does anybody rank "Steven Spielberg" among the top OA collectors? Do mere mortal OA collectors cringe in fear that George Lucas will come in and snipe them on eBay? Sheesh, if I'm going to believe in the myth of the celebrity collector, I might as well believe in the Loch Ness Monster, the Yeti and that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't dive!!

Fer chrissake Gene, I'm sorry I ever mentioned their names since you seem to want to obsess at length about the buying habits of the rich and famous. They were just examples of possible "outside" money that might be interested in such a unique piece of Americana.

 

Okay, so no wealthy celebrities have ever purchased, or will ever purchase, common collectibles. Wayne Gretzky never bought the T206. Bill Gross never bought whatever stamp it was that he bought. Nic Cage never assembled a great comic collection. Barbra Streisand never had a bunch of Tiffany lamps.

 

Of course, which is why Nic Cage had such a mediocre comic collection which was of no interest to "real" collectors.

 

He was one guy, out of how many? Did he use his fortune to utterly dominate GA collecting so that guys like Mark Zaid cringed in fear that they would never be able to buy anything good again?

You keep trying to put words in my mouth. I never tried to extrapolate the involvement of some rich celeb in an Action 1 cover auction into some kind of desire to dominate the comic or OA field. Nor have I ever been one of the people saying that all the money in Silicon Valley, Hollywood and Wall Street should be translating into higher prices for comics in general.

 

My point is that they might be attracted by a one-of-a-kind super-iconic piece of Americana, and that such an item might attract interest from people who normally wouldn't be interested in comics. Surely you acknowledge that the Action 1 cover is different from the typical Heritage offering and might attract some "outside" interest? All it would take is one or two big shots, not all of Hollywood and Greenwich. But you apparently are 100% certain that under no circumstance would it be possible that any big money celeb would ever pony up to buy the cover, and no way could the Action 1 cover possibly end up in the hands of anyone other than an established name in the comic/OA hobby.

[dem1138]

I don't think Gene is making such an absolute point - but regardless - I think a good example of a "celebrity" paying more than they can afford for a very high-dollar collectible is when Todd McFarlane spent 2.2M on the Mark McGuire #62 Homerun ball. I remember him stating that that was almost all of his free cash. Now, he runs his own very successful company, and the publicity was great, but even he admitted that that was stupid of him and he got caught up in all of the drama. However, it is an example of a notable person coming out of left field (pun intended, thank you very much) to spend above and beyond for a 'once-in-a-lifetime' collectible.