Somewhat OT but mostly on topic: about restoration

[bullseye]

Is the same stigma attached to restoration in other hobbies? I ask because I collect autographs almost as much as comics. Basically I was wondering if pressing and cleaning etc. are frowned upon as much as in the comic book industry.

 

I'm also looking for a good source for a dry mount press, japan paper, glue and acrylic paint, and anything else I might need. (probably don't intend to do any piece adding, but might do a cover repro on a couple). have a large stack of beaters that aren't leaving the collection any time soon that could use some tlc, and wouldn't be feasible to have done by Sue, or Matt, given their value, (under 200 on most of them.) Figured I could work out the kinks on some mid eighties johnny quests and kool-aid man #1's.

[FFB]

http://www.talasonline.com/

 

http://www.conservationresources.com/

 

www.gaylord.com

 

www.dickblick.com

[bullseye]

Woohoo, thanks a lot. I considered PMing you, but wasn't sure on the etiquette of sending PM's to random people and making inquiries.

 

Also, is the best way to learn just trial and error? or would people reccomend taking art classes etc.?

[FFB]

If you can take classes in art conservation at a local college, that would be ideal - but it's not really an option for most people. My recommendation is that you buy a "How to" manual on book repair to learn the basics of how to seal tears, etc. Vince Scipior's site also has some good basic info, although you should keep in mind that regardless of the source of your info, one person's techniques are not necessarily the same techniques that everyone else uses.

[bullseye]

His site is great, and it appears he does good work from the scans on the site.(The leafcaster seems quite promising.) Once I get my press, are there any sites/books that would be helpful in learning pressing techniques? I don't intend to pursue this as a career, but I think the knowledge of everything that goes into it, and the cosmetic upgrades to some of my keepers, not to mention learning to spot it, will be worth the expense of the time and equipment. (Holy run-on sentence Batman!)

[Mr. Zipper]

Is the same stigma attached to restoration in other hobbies? I ask because I collect autographs almost as much as comics. Basically I was wondering if pressing and cleaning etc. are frowned upon as much as in the comic book industry.

 

As long as the signature goes untouched, a signed document that has been professionally conserved/restored is far more desirable than an unrestored counterpart. You see a lot of conservation and restoration of signed historical documents such a land grants, etc. Often these documents were folded for many years and tend to split on the folds. Any document a few hundred years old may need a little help. A nicely conservered and archivally framed Washington signed military commission would be much more desirable than the same document with tears, water stains and foxing.

 

Why does the comic collecting hobby have such an adverse reaction to restoration whereas it's much more accepted in other hobbies? The common argument is that so many people were burned by undisclosed resto that they now have an attack dog mentality toward anything that is restored. I don't buy it. Since so many resto haters have never bought or even held a restored book, I suspect it has more to do with elitism than anything else. I dunno... check with a psychologist specializing in group behavior...

[bluechip]

[Why does the comic collecting hobby have such an adverse reaction to restoration whereas it's much more accepted in other hobbies? The common argument is that so many people were burned by undisclosed resto that they now have an attack dog mentality toward anything that is restored. I don't buy it.

 

 

That is a factor, which you can see clearly when people weigh in on the subject and talk pretty openly about seeking to "punish" restored books.

 

But I think a much bigger factor is that comic collectibles involves a lot of newer material and even brand new material.

 

Imagine there was a market for modern made revolutionary war .collectibles and you could more easily make money selling modern "investment grade" George Washington documents than you could buying and selling rare antique original items. Then imagine you could get people to pay even more if your modern made documents were in slabs with high grade numbers.

 

I would not be surprised if that led to a heightened obsession with condition and the widespread denigration of restored antique documents.

[Ze-man]

I can understand if people just flat out do not like a book, comic, painting, document that was worked on because they would prefer it in it's damaged yet original condition. Not as much an elitist, as a purist. But comparing comics to painting restoration is not really a fair comparison. They are completely different.

 

I would like to think conservation applications can be appreciated for what they are someday. Helping to preserve items from accruing further damage so future generations can enjoy them as well. Once the leap of accepting this as acceptable is made then perhaps people will look at the other forms of more invasive restoration in a different light.

 

They still might not like it, but maybe they wont hate it as much. Or maybe it will remain as it is and the stigma associated with restored items will always remain.

 

Something to do with adding material that just does not sit well with some people.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

 

 

Ze-

[Lazyboy]

There is a huge difference between having unique or rare items restored and having mass produced items restored. Why would anyone choose a restored item over a nearly identical unrestored item? It makes no sense.

[Ze-man]

There is a huge difference between having unique or rare items restored and having mass produced items restored. Why would anyone choose a restored item over a nearly identical unrestored item? It makes no sense.

 

 

Ummm....

 

The price?

 

 

 

[Monkeyman]

There is a huge difference between having unique or rare items restored and having mass produced items restored. Why would anyone choose a restored item over a nearly identical unrestored item? It makes no sense.

 

Exactly! I would pay more for a nicely restored comic than a ratty old copy, but would also pay more for an unrestored copy in the same condition as the restored one.

 

Mike

[Mr. Zipper]

Why would anyone choose a restored item over a nearly identical unrestored item? It makes no sense.

 

Who said anything about choosing one over another? One can find restoration as an acceptable option without prefering it over an unrestored counterpart. What makes no sense to me are collectors who would prefer a total beater 2.0 covered with soiling, tears, writing and creases (but it's UNrestored!) over a clean 6.0 that has a few pinhead dots of color touch or glue. In the current market the pricing will be about the same.

 

There is a huge difference between having unique or rare items restored and having mass produced items restored.

 

Certainly comic books are a mass produced media. So, try to find a nice copy of Action #44. Or scare up a decent FF 1 for less than $2,000. It doesn't really matter of the item was mass produced at one time if the current demand dwarfs the available supply.

 

BTW, nothing has ever been more mass produced than coins... and apparently some forms of re-conditioning are widely accepted in that hobby.

[Lazyboy]

What makes no sense to me are collectors who would prefer a total beater 2.0 covered with soiling, tears, writing and creases (but it's UNrestored!) over a clean 6.0 that has a few pinhead dots of color touch or glue. In the current market the pricing will be about the same.

 

Yeah, I find that very strange as well.

 

Certainly comic books are a mass produced media. So, try to find a nice copy of Action #44. Or scare up a decent FF 1 for less than $2,000. It doesn't really matter of the item was mass produced at one time if the current demand dwarfs the available supply.

 

Ok, mass produced items that weren't greatly diminished in number over the years.

My point was that a document signed by George Washington is unique while any comic is not. The importance of condition is magnified by the quantity available for the particular item.

 

BTW, nothing has ever been more mass produced than coins... and apparently some forms of re-conditioning are widely accepted in that hobby.

 

I think that is because the elite (ie. dealers) secretly made most of those practices so prevalent long ago, before collectors had any hope of raising their voices against it, that the choice is basically to accept it or not collect coins. It's fairly easy to educate and organize large quantities of people from all over the country/world in the internet age (ie. the NOD), but it wasn't so easy before.

[Lazyboy]

There is a huge difference between having unique or rare items restored and having mass produced items restored. Why would anyone choose a restored item over a nearly identical unrestored item? It makes no sense.

 

 

Ummm....

 

The price?

 

 

 

Exactly! That's the point, isn't it? Demand for restored books compared to unrestored is so low that a nearly identical restored copy goes for a fraction of the price.

[bullseye]

I heard removing the personalized greeting part is frowned upon as well?

[Mr. Zipper]

I heard removing the personalized greeting part is frowned upon as well?

 

"Washing" is the process of removing a personalization ("To Joe Blow") from a signed photograph. You can easily remove Sharpie from a GLOSSY photograph with a white art eraser. It will not work on porous surfaces where the ink actually sinks in.

 

This practice is frowned upon by most collectors, but some people do it anyway because unpersonalized photos tend to fetch more than personalized examples. You will find that personalized examples of very common contemporary autographs (celebs who do the signing shows) are almost worthless. Why pay for a photo signed to someone else when you can get one yourself for $25?

 

Obviously, personalizations don't hurt much -- and may actually add value -- when the celebrity is long dead and/or exceedingly rare. A JFK photo inscribed to someone would probably actually be worth more because the extra handwriting also adds assurance that it is not a forgery.

 

Washing can be impossible to detect, however, often there may be very light indentations in the surface of the photo even though the ink was removed. Hold it at an angle to the light and you can see where the personalization was.

 

Interestingly, American autograph collectors tend to prefer unpersonalized examples, while European collectors tend not to mind personalizations (more writing is better.)

[bullseye]

Thanks for all the information Zipper, how about an autograph from a president to a medal of honor awardee? That's the prize of my collection, a letter from President Clinton to my grandfather (although knowing my luck it was signed by his secretary) luckily it isn't a preprint.

 

Also anyone have a source for silicon release paper?

[Mr. Zipper]

Thanks for all the information Zipper, how about an autograph from a president to a medal of honor awardee? That's the prize of my collection, a letter from President Clinton to my grandfather (although knowing my luck it was signed by his secretary) luckily it isn't a preprint.

 

It would be one of three things: real, preprint or Autopen.

 

Autopen (machine signed) is typically easy to tell because the patterns are always identical. Preprint may be harder to tell, unless you had another award to compare it to. Awards and certificates may be pre-printed, but typically a letter would not be... a letter would typically be real or Autopen.

 

If you can get a high-res scan, PM me and I 'd be happy to look at it and compare against my reference materials. BTW, an online aquaintance of mine is very good friends with Clinton (going back to high school) and has a killer Clinton signature collection. Photos, greeting cards, letters, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not close enough to the guy to feel like I can ask him to get something signed for me.

[FFB]

Thanks for all the information Zipper, how about an autograph from a president to a medal of honor awardee? That's the prize of my collection, a letter from President Clinton to my grandfather (although knowing my luck it was signed by his secretary) luckily it isn't a preprint.

 

Also anyone have a source for silicon release paper?

 

You can buy it at Talas Online. I gave you the link above. You should be able to buy everything you need from at least one of those places.

[bullseye]

Zipper: Once I get a new scanner I would be happy to send it. The reason I think it isn't a preprint is because the ink has a very small break in it, but then again, I have seen preprints do that before, but usually on a photo, and not the nice parchment it is written on. Then again, an autopen wouldn't surprise me either, as this wasn't requested, we just received it a few weeks after he passed.

 

FFB: Thanks, I guess I didn't look hard enough.

 

 

Also trimming seems fairly prominent for amateur restorationists, but most collector seem to look at it as something as bad as brittle pages or something. Is this something I shouldn't even bother learning? Except to detect of course.