Has the apprentice become the master?

[Artemaria]

I'm sure many of you noticed this X-men page go for insane money over the weekend.

 

In case you didn't here's the link to the Byrne/Austin panel page (eBay item no: 280116760428). If the page had lettering, this page would have contained perhaps the most memorable phrase ever written by Chris Claremont ("You have a good face.") in a very touching moment between Scott and Jean. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

Nice page, but is it $8,211 nice?

 

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Byrne admits that he aped much of his earlier style from Adams (see Art of John Byrne, Vol. 1, SQ Productions, 1980). Many many people, (Byrne, back in 1980 in that book) and myself included, consider Adams as an all time great in the history of comics, and if not the best artist of all time, then definitely top 3.

 

I guess my question is what the heck is going on?

 

How is it that the work of the apprentice now commands more than that of the master?

[CW]

Actually if you go to the heritage auction archives they are listing the final sale of that cover as a phone win for $8,962.50 with buyer's premium in a May 3rd sale.

[Mister Trent]

I'm sure many of you noticed this X-men page go for insane money over the weekend.

 

In case you didn't here's the link to the Byrne/Austin panel page (eBay item no: 280116760428). If the page had lettering, this page would have contained perhaps the most memorable phrase ever written by Chris Claremont ("You have a good face.") in a very touching moment between Scott and Jean. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

Nice page, but is it $8,211 nice?

 

It's nice for the vendor . . .

[Mister Trent]

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Back in the mid-1980s, I paid £75 for a Neal Adams SUPERMAN cover from around the same publication year.

 

That was a pretty good price to pay, too . . .

[Mister Trent]

Byrne admits that he aped much of his earlier style from Adams (see Art of John Byrne, Vol. 1, SQ Productions, 1980). Many many people, (Byrne, back in 1980 in that book) and myself included, consider Adams as an all time great in the history of comics, and if not the best artist of all time, then definitely top 3.

 

I guess my question is what the heck is going on?

 

How is it that the work of the apprentice now commands more than that of the master?

 

Maybe he got past his apprenticeship and became a professional craftsman in his own right . . .

 

Perhaps you ought to consider these two artists separate entities, with separate fan-bases?

[Artemaria]

Actually if you go to the heritage auction archives they are listing the final sale of that cover as a phone win for $8,962.50 with buyer's premium in a May 3rd sale.

 

Okay, but still, a Neal Adams cover for roughly the same price as a Byrne panel page (with no action and only Cyclops in costume)?

 

I just don't understand it. Is this a market driven entirely by sentimentality? Or as one of my friends put it - "This is not a true art market. This is a nostalgia market."

 

Is nostalgia worth the $5K premium that this page obtained with respect to other similar panel pages?

[Artemaria]

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Back in the mid-1980s, I paid £75 for a Neal Adams SUPERMAN cover from around the same publication year.

 

That was a pretty good price to pay, too . . .

 

Two things. 1. I am insanely jealous. I don't know if I could get Neal to sign his name today for $75.

 

2. I'll buy it off you for ten times what you paid. . . if you still have it.

[Nexus]

"This is not a true art market. This is a nostalgia market."

 

Bingo. That's the comic art market in a nutshell.

[Mister Trent]

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Back in the mid-1980s, I paid £75 for a Neal Adams SUPERMAN cover from around the same publication year.

 

That was a pretty good price to pay, too . . .

 

Two things. 1. I am insanely jealous. I don't know if I could get Neal to sign his name today for $75.

 

2. I'll buy it off you for ten times what you paid. . . if you still have it.

 

Actually, I sold it several years later for around $450 to help fund another purchase.

 

Still, I do have a nice Neal Adams TOMAHAWK cover that I like a lot better than my old SUPES cover . . .

[Mister Trent]

"This is not a true art market. This is a nostalgia market."

 

Bingo. That's the comic art market in a nutshell.

 

Not necessarily.

 

Some of my favourite types of comic art saw publication a long time before I started buying comics. For example, the old EC stuff. As such, nostalgia doesn't drive my interest for EC art - aesthetics does . . .

 

There are lots of fellow EC-art collectors out there who weren't around during the 1950s . . .

[westform]

Perhaps you ought to consider these two artists separate entities, with separate fan-bases?

 

I think that's it Terry. Also, a bit of Xmen being hotter than Supes. Plus, that's a whole lotta superman *spoon* if you ask me.... Actually you didn't, but that was the reason I didn't bid.... didn't like the image. I would have gone to 15k if it was a better cover.

 

Yes, the xmen seemed a tad high, but this market has lots o customers and yes does tend to go up and down with them.

[Sharkey]

It's pretty simple. The fan-base of the X-Men from that time period is HUGE and is at the age that it has money to spend. Factor in that page is a key scene between jean and scott, and is one of the most memorable scenes of one of the most memorable story lines of the Bronze Age (even to me, and I'm not even a fanatic for the X-Men) and you have a key page of art in a number of collectors' eyes! The nostalgia aspect and the death of phoenix storyline made this a must-have piece for at least a couple of collectors who bid it up, and in the end, yes it IS $8,211 nice to somebody, and that's all that matters.

 

Comparing it to THAT Neal Adams cover? C'mon. I like Neal Adams a lot, but that cover does absolutely nothing for me. I'd rather have the X-Men page.

 

Not every Byrne X-Men page will sell for $8k and not every Adams Superman cover will sell for $7500. But don't be surpised to see key Byrne X-Men pages continue to command high prices.

 

 

 

I'm sure many of you noticed this X-men page go for insane money over the weekend.

 

In case you didn't here's the link to the Byrne/Austin panel page (eBay item no: 280116760428). If the page had lettering, this page would have contained perhaps the most memorable phrase ever written by Chris Claremont ("You have a good face.") in a very touching moment between Scott and Jean. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

Nice page, but is it $8,211 nice?

 

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Byrne admits that he aped much of his earlier style from Adams (see Art of John Byrne, Vol. 1, SQ Productions, 1980). Many many people, (Byrne, back in 1980 in that book) and myself included, consider Adams as an all time great in the history of comics, and if not the best artist of all time, then definitely top 3.

 

I guess my question is what the heck is going on?

 

How is it that the work of the apprentice now commands more than that of the master?

[Artemaria]

Comparing it to THAT Neal Adams cover? C'mon. I like Neal Adams a lot, but that cover does absolutely nothing for me. I'd rather have the X-Men page.

 

Not every Byrne X-Men page will sell for $8k and not every Adams Superman cover will sell for $7500. But don't be surpised to see key Byrne X-Men pages continue to command high prices.

 

-----------

Fair enough. It is not the best Neal Adams cover, but it isn't bad. And, it is still a cover of either the most or one of the most recognizable superheros in the world (I'd say Spiderman & Batman round out the top three). So I thought it should compare favorably to a panel page.

 

And, for those keeping track, a key Adams panel page with the first appearance of Ras Al Ghul went for about $27K (I think) about a month ago on eBay. So, I realize that the two artists are different and every single page is different. However, I am very suprised at that X-men auction result.

 

As for the Byrne X-men pages, in the preceding year, I've seen a couple go for between 2-3K. A couple of months ago, they jumped from 2-3K to 3-5K. Then this summer comes and all of sudden the pages are going for 5-8.211K!

 

Is this normal? Does the market for those pages ever go down or even have lulls?

[Sharkey]

Comparing it to THAT Neal Adams cover? C'mon. I like Neal Adams a lot, but that cover does absolutely nothing for me. I'd rather have the X-Men page.

 

Not every Byrne X-Men page will sell for $8k and not every Adams Superman cover will sell for $7500. But don't be surpised to see key Byrne X-Men pages continue to command high prices.

 

 

Fair enough. It is not the best Neal Adams cover, but it isn't bad. And, it is still a cover of either the most or one of the most recognizable superheros in the world (I'd say Spiderman & Batman round out the top three). So I thought it should compare favorably to a panel page.

 

And, for those keeping track, a key Adams panel page with the first appearance of Ras Al Ghul went for about $27K (I think) about a month ago on eBay. So, I realize that the two artists are different and every single page is different. However, I am very suprised at that X-men auction result.

 

As for the Byrne X-men pages, in the preceding year, I've seen a couple go for between 2-3K. A couple of months ago, they jumped from 2-3K to 3-5K. Then this summer comes and all of sudden the pages are going for 5-8.211K!

 

Is this normal? Does the market for those pages ever go down or even have lulls?

 

I think the market for these pages is picking up, although I haven't researched Heritage or other sales for hard data. It seems that anecdotally, in talking to other collectors, they want to have a nice example of a page (or pages) from the X-Men run of 94-143. Maybe it's because of the movies, or comic book hype overall, but interest in X-Men OA seems to be higher than it was a few years ago.

 

For me personally, I'd like to get a nice page from the run too. I bought those books religiously when I was a kid and realized there was something special there. Compared to what good Kirby and Ditko pages are going for right now, 5-8K sounds like a bargain!

[westform]

Compared to what good Kirby and Ditko pages are going for right now, 5-8K sounds like a bargain!

 

Steve; you said a mouthful there. These prices don't come out of a vacuum. We buy and sell art in comparison with other choices out there. Yes, you want a primo Ditko spidey for 25 to 40k, a Kirby Sinnott primo FF page for 10 to 15k, why not a primo Cockrum or Byrne Xmen page for 8k. If we are not there yet, we soon will be. It's the 14 to 15k Byrne pages that throw me, but.... maybe those days are back again too!...

[Artemaria]

Compared to what good Kirby and Ditko pages are going for right now, 5-8K sounds like a bargain!

 

Steve; you said a mouthful there. These prices don't come out of a vacuum. We buy and sell art in comparison with other choices out there. Yes, you want a primo Ditko spidey for 25 to 40k, a Kirby Sinnott primo FF page for 10 to 15k, why not a primo Cockrum or Byrne Xmen page for 8k. If we are not there yet, we soon will be. It's the 14 to 15k Byrne pages that throw me, but.... maybe those days are back again too!...

 

What do you mean "maybe those days are back again too"?

[westform]

It's my opinion based on my experience with prices in this market that a few years back, prime xmen example pages were selling over 10k... just the prime prime mind you. Prices seemed to decline a bit as several big-time collectors had there fill and sold off quite a few pieces all at once. Now, after leveling off prices seem on the rise again, as well as prime pages being harder to find. Imagine that, supply and demand actually apply. Oh Uh!... better stop with that or I'll be talkin' krazy...

[Sharkey]

It's my opinion based on my experience with prices in this market that a few years back, prime xmen example pages were selling over 10k... just the prime prime mind you. Prices seemed to decline a bit as several big-time collectors had there fill and sold off quite a few pieces all at once. Now, after leveling off prices seem on the rise again, as well as prime pages being harder to find. Imagine that, supply and demand actually apply. Oh Uh!... better stop with that or I'll be talkin' krazy...

 

Thanks Dan, it's this type of historical info that helps put the market in perspective.

 

I remember the Kirby glut a number of years back. People thought there was so much art out there that prices for his work would be depressed for a long time. And now look at it!

[westform]

Ah yes, the infamous Kirby glut, I remember it well. It did last a long time in comic art years.... where things move in nanoseconds. For 3 to 4 years at least maybe more Kirby prices were cheap.... mmm, maybe they still are (?). Why isn't a prime Kirby /sinnott FF twice up page on par with a prime Ditko spidey page... I mean not even close yet. You might think more FF pages to be had, but not so. Most of these pages are off the market. I see many more nice Ditko examples for sale than kirby FF or Cap for that matter. It's only a matter of time before the Kirby market takes it's rightful place... heck, it's already happening as many savvy collectors scramble to get their hands on any quality piece of Kirby art they can....

[Sharkey]

Ah yes, the infamous Kirby glut, I remember it well. It did last a long time in comic art years.... where things move in nanoseconds. For 3 to 4 years at least maybe more Kirby prices were cheap.... mmm, maybe they still are (?). Why isn't a prime Kirby /sinnott FF twice up page on par with a prime Ditko spidey page... I mean not even close yet. You might think more FF pages to be had, but not so. Most of these pages are off the market. I see many more nice Ditko examples for sale than kirby FF or Cap for that matter. It's only a matter of time before the Kirby market takes it's rightful place... heck, it's already happening as many savvy collectors scramble to get their hands on any quality piece of Kirby art they can....

 

Yeah, much to my dismay.... The good stuff's getting way too expensive!!!

 

But, I'm glad to see Kirby getting his due. As far as the ASM I think there's a mystique about Ditko Spidey, and of course Doc Strange (cuz those are SO few and far between). His reclusive nature adds to it, I think.