Has the apprentice become the master?

[westform]

I guess my point is... maybe it's not getting expensive. I mean who deserves it more than Kirby. If you ask any newcomer to the hobby, or for that matter any veteran they will all say they want a really nice Kirby example.... he is probably the only name to cross over so much. And, with good reason, he is the King no? I've picked up 5 or 6 really cool Kirby examples in the last month and am actively looking for more. I think I'm not alone....

 

.... 50k, 100k for a Ditko spidey splash.... who knows on a cover?..... Kirby's are still cheap!

[Artemaria]

I guess my point is... maybe it's not getting expensive. I mean who deserves it more than Kirby. If you ask any newcomer to the hobby, or for that matter any veteran they will all say they want a really nice Kirby example.... he is probably the only name to cross over so much. And, with good reason, he is the King no? I've picked up 5 or 6 really cool Kirby examples in the last month and am actively looking for more. I think I'm not alone....

 

.... 50k, 100k for a Ditko spidey splash.... who knows on a cover?..... Kirby's are still cheap!

 

Thanks so much for the historical perspective, but it sounds like a certain Krazy Mr. Glass has gotten a hold of your password Dan!?!

 

On the one hand, I'm glad that the market it doing well, because I think it bodes well for the longevity of the artform.

 

I wonder if there are certain artists who won't go completely digital - like Mr. Bolland - because they are concerned that they will not make any money off of selling their original art.

 

On the other hand, while I'd been reading comics for quite some time, I'm fairly new to this hobby, and it sounds like I'm coming into the stock market during the investment bubble of the early millenium.

[westform]

Thanks so much for the historical perspective, but it sounds like a certain Krazy Mr. Glass has gotten a hold of your password Dan!?!

 

Difference is... I put my $ where my mouth is.... (sorry, just ribbin' Matt)

[tth2]

I guess my point is... maybe it's not getting expensive. I mean who deserves it more than Kirby. If you ask any newcomer to the hobby, or for that matter any veteran they will all say they want a really nice Kirby example.... he is probably the only name to cross over so much. And, with good reason, he is the King no? I've picked up 5 or 6 really cool Kirby examples in the last month and am actively looking for more. I think I'm not alone....

 

.... 50k, 100k for a Ditko spidey splash.... who knows on a cover?..... Kirby's are still cheap!

Isn't it partly due to the fact that Ditko's body of work on Spider-Man was so small, particularly compared to Kirby's huge runs on FF, Thor, Cap, etc.?

[blowout]

Why isn't a prime Kirby /sinnott FF twice up page on par with a prime Ditko spidey page... I mean not even close yet. You might think more FF pages to be had, but not so. Most of these pages are off the market. I see many more nice Ditko examples for sale than kirby FF or Cap for that matter.

 

 

I don't know where you are looking, because prime Kirby pages come up FAR more often than prime Ditko ones.

[westform]

Why isn't a prime Kirby /sinnott FF twice up page on par with a prime Ditko spidey page... I mean not even close yet. You might think more FF pages to be had, but not so. Most of these pages are off the market. I see many more nice Ditko examples for sale than kirby FF or Cap for that matter.

 

 

I don't know where you are looking, because prime Kirby pages come up FAR more often than prime Ditko ones.

 

Really, show me examples please. Other than the FF53 book which recently got broken up, I can almost count on one hand the number of really good twice up KirbySinnott FF pages that I've ever seen for sale. I'm talking action, villian, lots of FF, etc. Any you can think of? They are held very closely and have been for years.

[Artemaria]

Where is the best place to find prime Kirby pages?

 

I did not even know about the FF53 book, or that pages from it were for sale.

[westform]

Where is the best place to find prime Kirby pages?

 

I did not even know about the FF53 book, or that pages from it were for sale.

 

I'll let others attempt to answer that.... if you find some clue us in!

 

Will Gabri-El had a number of FF53 pages on his site for sale recently. They sold in about 3 minutes I think....

 

(by the way, not doggin' Ditko Spidey. Love it! It's rare, it's good, it's gold.... ummmm, excuse the kraziness kreeping in....)

[Sharkey]

Why isn't a prime Kirby /sinnott FF twice up page on par with a prime Ditko spidey page... I mean not even close yet. You might think more FF pages to be had, but not so. Most of these pages are off the market. I see many more nice Ditko examples for sale than kirby FF or Cap for that matter.

 

 

I don't know where you are looking, because prime Kirby pages come up FAR more often than prime Ditko ones.

 

Really, show me examples please. Other than the FF53 book which recently got broken up, I can almost count on one hand the number of really good twice up KirbySinnott FF pages that I've ever seen for sale. I'm talking action, villian, lots of FF, etc. Any you can think of? They are held very closely and have been for years.

 

Dan, I understand and very much agree with what you're saying here. With the whole book of ASM 31 selling at Mastronet, the ASM 12 splash on ComicLink, and stunning key action pages from ASM 27 and 29 selling recently, (and the Doc Strange pinup) there's definitely been more top-line Ditko ASM out there publicly changing hands than top-line Kirby/Sinnott FF pages or comparable mainstream Kirby splash and key action pages.

 

Publicly is one of the key words. I know some major Kirby art has changed hands in the past year, but it's been collector-to-collector transactions rather than public commercial auction house transactions -- so in many cases the value of the "deal" is not known and not widely discussed by the collecting community at large. And I also think that because of the very high prices realized on the Spidey pages, their sales have overshadowed some of the better Kirby art that has sold.

 

All that said, though, I think your perception about public sales is dead on. It's been a huge year for Ditko and the prices paid have been through the roof. And there's no doubt that if (when?) some fresh large art Kirby/Sinnott or comparable pages hit the market at auction, they're gonna get bid up like crazy because you and me and all the other Kirby nuts are aching to get their hands on a killer page and we're gonna battle it out!

[Mister Trent]

Other than the FF53 book which recently got broken up, I can almost count on one hand the number of really good twice up KirbySinnott FF pages that I've ever seen for sale. I'm talking action, villian, lots of FF, etc. Any you can think of? They are held very closely and have been for years.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, wasn't it you who owned the complete FF # 53 book?

[westform]

Other than the FF53 book which recently got broken up, I can almost count on one hand the number of really good twice up KirbySinnott FF pages that I've ever seen for sale. I'm talking action, villian, lots of FF, etc. Any you can think of? They are held very closely and have been for years.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, wasn't it you who owned the complete FF # 53 book?

 

Yes, owned it and sold it complete. Dan

[Artemaria]

Wow.

 

[tentpeg06]

To all,

I wanted to weigh in on this topic. It has somewhat strayed from the Byrne versus Adams price comparisons, but then price comparisons of Kirby versus Ditko are valid as well.

 

I have been buying Byrne Marvel art now for 15 plus years. For example, I still own the West Coast Avengers 42 cover that I purchased from John back in 1992 at an Atlanta show. The lulls in the Byrne market have typically been very interesting. Prices rose steadily in the 1990s for all Byrne art as the kids in the '70s became the Yuppies of the 90s. In 1999 and 2000, the Byrne X-Men covers shot to the $25K level and then to the $30K level. They continued to go up in private transactions all the way to $50K from what I learned. Then, a major crash occurred in 2003 where the cover prices dropped back into the $30K range through the Heritage auctions. I remember watching Albert Moy at the August 2003 Signature Auction in SD pick up the 113 cover for $30K ($34.5K with the juice). He was the only bidder. As for the Byrne X-Men panel pages, 2005 and 2005 were lull periods. Prices were tracking sideways in eBay auctions. Now, in 2007, I think that the prices have definitely had positive pushes to the north. The X-Men 132 panel page that just closed is a good example of a quality page receiving much attention. Jean Grey pages typically command higher prices, regardless of her being Phoenix or Dark Phoenix.

 

Now, for Neal Adams, I cannot comment as well on his price situation. Neal Adams' work in the 1960s and early 1970s was truly revolutionary. I think that you have to compare Neal's work at Marvel better than with his work at DC. There are definite differences in pricing Neal's work from the two companies. Use the apples to apples comparison (Adams X-Men and Byrne X-Men). I love his run on X-Men as Roy Thomas, Tom Palmer, and he re-defined the X-Men and created some of the ideas for story arcs that Claremont, Byrne, and Austin used in their run. Prices for Neal's X-Men artwork are hard to determine right now because not much has transacted in the public domain. I know that there have been private transactions, but I am not privy to those prices. If a page from X-Men 57-63, 65 came up for auction that has not been on the market before (I discount the Donnelly pages), then I believe that you would see close to $10K in auction. Of course, there is less Adams X-Men artwork available than Byrne X-Men artwork. This has a tendency to drive up prices as well. I would like to hear what others think of comparing these two titans in the industry.

Ciao!

PRC

[Artemaria]

PRC -

 

Your analysis and historical perspective are greatly appreciated.

 

My question, as a prospective buyer, is whether I will see a Byrne X-men page for $2-$3 K, as I passed up on several eBay auctions thinking the prices would stay the same and waiting for a page I liked a little more.

 

Now, in the last 4 months, I've not seen a page go for less than $4 K. Granted, all of the pages were somewhat nicer than the pages I passed up on, but there's a big difference (to me at least) in a $2K page and a $4K page -- especially for panel pages!

 

Also, other than eBay, where would I find such a page as I would like to add one to my collection?

 

As for your Adams/DC and Adams/Marvel comparison - I think it is valid, and for one reason and one reason only -- Tom Palmer. Just as no one made Byrne look as good as Austin did, no one (with no disrespect to Mr. Giordano) made Adams look as good as Palmer.

 

People tend to discount inkers, but I've never seen a Terry Austin (or more recently Scott Williams) page look bad. Even when the penciller was not top tier.

 

It is also not a coincidence that several of the greatest artistic runs in history were inked by Terry Austin (Byrne/X-men, Rogers/Detective). Austin also inked what is perhaps the best drawn book of the modern era - Michael Golden's Dr. Strange 55. All Austin. All for the history books.

 

Your thoughts on the Byrne/Austin X-men pages would be greatly appreciated.

 

- A

[tth2]

Artemaria-

 

Sounds like you have discriminating taste and a decent collection. How about posting some of your collection to share with the rest of us?

[Artemaria]

Artemaria-

 

Sounds like you have discriminating taste and a decent collection. How about posting some of your collection to share with the rest of us?

 

tth2 -

 

Thanks so much for the kind words!

 

I'd happily post my collection (it is in its nascency) but I don't know how to post images directly to the board. Alternatively, here's the link to my CAF. http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=21428

 

Although I'd been reading comics for years, I just started collecting OA a few months ago. So, I'm still looking for lots of OA, but, as you probably know, it is hard to find that right piece at the right price.

[irchooker]

When you talk about pricing and appetite for the product, there is one factor at I rarely (never) see mentioned -- which is surely part and parcel with the 'America is an island' mentality -- that is, the strength of foreign currencies. In 2002, $1000 Canadian dollars could buy $600 worth of art, now it buys $900 worth of art. Track the Euro, we can see buying booms with the strengthening of other currencies, making pieces more 'affordable' for a large group of consumers.

[SignatureSelect]

Let's compare that to a Neal Adams Superman cover with one of the largest Superman images I've seen on an Adams cover (eBay item no.: 170105567043). Here's the link to that http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBay...567043&rd=1,1

 

This cover went for $7,500. Which, admittedly is a pretty good price for a Neal Adams Superman cover.

 

Back in the mid-1980s, I paid £75 for a Neal Adams SUPERMAN cover from around the same publication year.

 

That was a pretty good price to pay, too . . .

 

Two things. 1. I am insanely jealous. I don't know if I could get Neal to sign his name today for $75.

 

2. I'll buy it off you for ten times what you paid. . . if you still have it.

 

neal signs for 3 dollars an autograph and I got neal to do a small green Arrow Head sketch for 100 bucks. Though that was a special deal because neal respects me and made me a good deal.

[SignatureSelect]

That being said I don't know that byrne would even look at me for 100 bucks

[BILL-O-migration]

When you talk about pricing and appetite for the product, there is one factor at I rarely (never) see mentioned -- which is surely part and parcel with the 'America is an island' mentality -- that is, the strength of foreign currencies. In 2002, $1000 Canadian dollars could buy $600 worth of art, now it buys $900 worth of art. Track the Euro, we can see buying booms with the strengthening of other currencies, making pieces more 'affordable' for a large group of consumers.

 

I agree 100%. Couple that with inflationary pressures that compel people to protect their dollar wealth with the purchase of hard assetts and you have a very solid explanation for why the hobby we are in is experiencing a pricing renessaince.