Anti-Nostalgia

[snappahead]

That's pretty amazing. I had no idea they were making Spidey issues like that.

 

The only interview I ever read with Ditko, I remember him talking about the Spidey design and he was claiming his ownership of it, cause there was a long time rumor that Kirby had designed it. I think I even saw the design that Kirby came up with. It was pretty bad actually. Looked nothing like the design Ditko came up with that was ultimately used.

 

I tried to walk away Trent. I did. I was hoping you'd do the same. It's hard not to say something when your'e being bashed. Try it sometime. Your'e a true master of semantics. Since I can't say anything without "putting words in your mouth", I simply won't acknowledge your posts anymore. It's good to know that your'e mature enough to not resort to name calling.

 

No worries, CW. I hide the profanity and nudity REALLY well:)

[Sharkey]

Do you think that the lack of recognition of Ditko's contribution at the time caused him to leave Marvel after creating one of the, if not the, most popular character(s) of all time (Spidey) and one of the most enduring, albeit underused (Dr. Strange)?

 

I'd read that Ditko said in an interview that "no one" will ever know why he left Marvel.

 

But I've seen lots of speculation, some of which relates to the above. And some of which relates to his desire to make comics even more socially aware and serious, and Stan's purported lack of interest to pursue those types of story lines when Steve wanted to do so.

 

It's fairly well discussed and accepted that Ditko left Marvel because of creative differences of where they each wanted the characters to go. But because Ditko hasn't done a lot of discussion, we are left to rely on the memory of Stan (which is less than reliable! ) and second-hand reports of others who all claim to be experts on the matter.

 

I will have to go look for this to verify, but I recall reading an account that said Stan rejected Ditko's plans with the Green Goblin and Stan wanted to take things in a very different direction, which upset Ditko since he had been given a high level of freedom to develop the ASM book. There was a distinct rift in the direction each wanted Spider-Man to go, and Ditko eventually left.

 

Mr. Trent, you are correct in your observations of the creation of characters by both Ditko and Kirby. Although the magic potion seemed to be collaboration of Kirby/Lee and Kirby/Ditko, there's no question that Kirby developed many characters for FF and DItko created many of the ASM characters. However, neither Kirby nor Ditko did as good a job creating characters when not collaborating with Stan. I never found the Fourth World stuff as good as what Jack did on FF or other Marvel titles. So there was something there for sure. Same with Ditko on ASM and Doc Strange vs his Charleton and DC titles. And the dearth of memorable characters after Ditko left definitely adds credence to the arguments that he had much more creative input into ASM than other artists had to Marvel books (Kirby's FF creations notwithstanding). So many of those Spidey villains were distinctly Ditko.... But Stan had to have done something to make it all more cohesive. Maybe it was the dialogue and tweaks to the story. When I read Ditko's dialogue in later books (Creeper or Captain Atom or Blue Beetle), or Kirby's dialog from his later work (think Black Panther), there's no question that dialog was not the strong point of either. I think Stan did a lot to "humanize" and pace the stories. Maybe that was the secret ingredient that cooked these things into the masterpieces they are.

 

Let me say though that I appreciate John Romita Sr.'s work a TON. He's a phenomenal artist. I'd love to have some Romita Spidey, DD, or Cap art. In fact, I think Romita would have been a spectacular Cap artist if he'd stayed on Cap for longer. But my preference for Ditko Spidey is pretty clear. I remember seeing Romita ASM after growing up reading my brother's Ditko issues and thinking "how'd Peter Parker get so handsome? He's like a movie star now!" To me, Ditko's quirky style was perfect for geeky Peter Parker and his oddball villains.

 

But Romita sure could draw women. As I got a little older, I much preferred Romita's MJ and Gwen to Ditko's... And his Medusa and Black Widow got my attention too!!

 

Now. to comment on Drummy's original post about nostalgia vs anti-nostalgia: for me, art IS nostalgia. I won't buy a page of an artist I don't like, no matter what the book was. In fact, if I think about it, if I liked a book as a kid, then that IS the nostalgia. If I didn't like it, I'm not buying art from it now, regardless. Why would I?

[snappahead]

Nice input Rhino. I'll be honest. I didn't know how much freedom Ditko had in those books. I always knew he helped create the book, but didn't know he practically wrote the stories too. I knew Jack did alot of that with FF and Thor, but didn't know about Ditko.

 

It ultimately boils down to style preferences as far as how the characters look. Since I grew up in the late 70's and 80's, I saw both Romita and Ditko's work at the same time basically. So, I didn't get the years of Ditko and then the Romita replacement. It was easy for me to look at both and say...I like Romita's style better.

 

The anti-nostalgia question's a good one. For me, nostalgia is the good and the bad from childhood. I do feel nostalgia for stuff I didn't like as a kid. I guess it's because it's just something I remember from childhood. I could see buying a page from an artist I didn't care for when I was a kid...as long as it's from a book that I liked or if the artist has grown on me as I've gotten older...kinda like Robbins has.

[Sal]

it's a proven fact that Steve Ditko can't draw decent boobs worth -all.

 

that's all i got for this debate.

 

 

oh, and KoR, you know i like you and everything, but Colletta was just garbage. i guess my hatred of the man stems more from reading his BA DC output, since i think by that time, the PTB at Marvel had kicked him out the door

[Mister Trent]

From what I've read, the creative differences that led to a parting of the ways between Ditko and Lee came to a head with the build-up to the Green Goblin's impending unmasking.

 

Lee (the showman) wanted the Green Goblin's ID to be someone of importance.

 

Ditko wanted the Goblin to be a nobody . . . someone the reader wasn't familiar with - not unlike (I suppose) the unmasking of the Crime Master (from ASM #s 26 and 27), where Spidey observes:

 

"It's kinda funny . . in real life, when a villain is unmasked, he isn't always the Buler, or the one you suspected! Sometimes he's a man you didn't even know! "

 

One of the things I particularly like about Ditko's art on Spidey, is that he's very good at drawing characters. Each character looks as though they have a, 'history', if you see what I mean? Incidental characters are not merely ciphers to advance the plot . . . each and every character is an individual creation. This is something Ditko was particularly good at doing - that we take for granted without really noticing . . .

 

People say that when Romita took over he made all the women look beautiful.

 

Yes, he did that . . . but, to me, that's not a reflection of true life. In Ditko's world, Betty Brant Liz Allen, et al, are attractive - but not necessarily stunningly beautiful. Ditko captured such imperfections in his portrayal of the ladies. In Romita's world of Spidey, Peter Parker gets transformed from being a nerd into a handsome young man . . . surrounded by beautiful ladies.

 

Ditko's art leans towards a cartoonist's style . . . and Romita's style is more illustrative.

 

Yet, Ditko's world (to my mind) captures the reality of life.

 

I realised a long time ago that Kirby and Ditko did there best work in collaboration with Stan Lee.

 

I have likened this situation to the partnership (for the BEATLES pop group) of John Lennon and Paul McCartney. As individuals, their solo careers never amounted to anything special . . . but working together, their musical collaborations were outstanding.

 

For me, when Ditko departed SPIDER-MAN, the book lost its soul . . .

[Mister Trent]

I tried to walk away Trent. I did. . . . It's good to know that your'e mature enough to not resort to name calling.

 

You still here, Homer?

[CW]

No worries, CW. I hide the profanity and nudity REALLY well:)

Damn!

[Mister Trent]

it's a proven fact that Steve Ditko can't draw decent boobs worth -all.

 

that's all i got for this debate.

 

Maybe you're on the wrong forum, buddy?

 

What you want is:

 

www.porn.com

 

[snappahead]

That's interesting stuff to know Trent. I agree with you on those comments. Especially the character stuff when it comes to Ditko. He was good at making characters distinctive and was consistent at giving each character a look that was there each time he drew them....Can't help my love of Romita's work, but I have even more respect for Ditko knowing this stuff...and yeah, I'm still here.

 

Sorry CW...maybe if I ever do something else for you, I'll go blatantly inappropriate on it .

[Mister Trent]

That's interesting stuff to know Trent. I agree with you on those comments. Especially the character stuff when it comes to Ditko. He was good at making characters distinctive and was consistent at giving each character a look that was there each time he drew them....Can't help my love of Romita's work, but I have even more respect for Ditko knowing this stuff...and yeah, I'm still here.

 

Okay, despite all your promises, you're refusing to go away.

 

How about we bury the hatchet?

 

 

EC-ing you!

 

[snappahead]

Sounds good to me as long as your'e not being literal...hard to tell by that EC-ing thing. Besides, you didn't think I was really going to go away did you? I like it here. I've even enjoyed this whole argument. It's been interesting. Even learned something about Ditko. Can't complain about that.

[Artemaria]

Okay, despite all your promises, you're refusing to go away.

 

How about we bury the hatchet?

 

[Artemaria]

Ditko's art leans towards a cartoonist's style . . . and Romita's style is more illustrative.

 

Yet, Ditko's world (to my mind) captures the reality of life.

 

Right on the money Trent! According to one source, the Ditko's realism was precisely why Stan wanted him on this particular book in the first place. Stan needed that realism to most accurately reflect his hero with (outside of fighting supervillans) a realistic life.

 

I love Romita Sr. and think he is an all time great, but I really believe that the book would not have been the same if he had started it with Stan (for many of the reasons discussed above - e.g. creator vs. illustrator, etc.).

 

I realised a long time ago that Kirby and Ditko did there best work in collaboration with Stan Lee.

 

These are the first and perhaps best examples of this recurring phenomenon in comics. Writers and artists join together and create a work for the ages, and then never manage to capture quite the same lightning in the bottle again. But the work lives on. . . .

[Mister Trent]

 

"What the . . . no Stevey-boy???"

[Mister Trent]

Sounds good to me as long as your'e not being literal...hard to tell by that EC-ing thing. Besides, you didn't think I was really going to go away did you? I like it here. I've even enjoyed this whole argument. It's been interesting. Even learned something about Ditko. Can't complain about that.

 

Aw, gee, I'm beginning to warm to you . . .

 

Heck, at this rate, I might even invite you to one of my parties . . .

 

 

A 'neck-tie' party, mind, but you did say your name was snap-a-head . . .

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist . . .

[snappahead]

Yeah, we shouldn't get along TOO well. We clearly hate each other. . No, seriously, I've enjoyed the thread. I finally decided to see who this guy was who was killing me and have to say I was really impressed. You've got a collection that I'd dream about. Amazing stuff and alot of common tastes I might add. I'd gladlydo a hit on somebody for that TTA cover. Unreal! And the Wood Wierd Science cover and the...man..props to you.

 

The Homer remarks..they hurt..ain't gonna lie, but I'm big enough to take it.

[Sal]

it's a proven fact that Steve Ditko can't draw decent boobs worth -all.

 

that's all i got for this debate.

 

Maybe you're on the wrong forum, buddy?

 

What you want is:

 

www.porn.com

 

 

as long as there are no Ditko-drawn ladies, sign me up!