CGC and Overstreet Grading

[fantastic_four]

A far better way to do this is to examine the high-profile comics sold through auction, that were graded by various comic book luninaries like Carter and Overstreet, and compare those grades against the CGC grade.

 

I don't get what you mean by there being a difference in this approach...Carter and Overstreet are the ones who gave Hoodeehoo his book's previous grade of 9.4.

 

 

In the case of the Sotheby auctions in the early 90's, many of the NM-/NM/NM+ books have come back CGC 9.2-9.6 (easy to trace because of pedigree), with many being the exact same CGC grade as Carter, Overstreet et al decreed in 1990-92 or so.

 

Can you share some of the details of example books that you're referring to?

[joe_collector]

I don't get what you mean by there being a difference in this approach...Carter and Overstreet are the ones who gave Hoodeehoo his book's previous grade of 9.4.

 

Well I guess I can't spell it out to you any clearer. These pedigree books are usually kept in Mylar, easily traceable and would not be splayed out for an OS Grading Guide.

 

The grade given was also done as per Overstreet standards and as it was for "investment sale", great care was taken in the grading and restoration checks. It was kind of like CGC today, only without the slab.

 

That these premium books graded in the early 90's come back at CGC grades equivalent to their auction grades, tells me a lot more than some isolated example in an old grading guide.

 

If you want examples, check out the Sotheby's portion of the 1990's Overstreet Annuals and then do some cross-referencing. That CGC 9.4 Amazing Fantasy bought for $150K (amount ?? -big bucks either way - the one that everyone likes to talk about) is an obvious example of a NM comic sold through Sotheby's circa '91.

[greggy]

1993 Sotheby's auction

 

1) White Mountain Amazing Fantasy 15 - ACG (Committee for Authenticity, Certification, and Grading) grade - 94 - CGC grade 9.4.

 

Individual member grades are as follows:

 

a) Gary Carter - 92

b) Joe Dungan - 92

c) Bruce Edwards - 94

d) John Hauser - 98

e) Pat Kochanek - 92

f) James Payette - 94

g) Joe Vereneault - 98

h) Jerry Weist - 98

 

The grade was probably skewed by the 3 9.8s, as it's no way that it's that nice.

 

2) White Mountain Fantastic Four 1 - ACG grade - 86 - CGC grade 9.2.

 

Individual member grades are as follows:

 

a) Gary Carter - 87

b) Joe Dungan - 87

c) Bruce Edwards - 82

d) John Hauser - 85

e) Pat Kochanek - 83

f) James Payette (missing vote)

g) Joe Vereneault (missing vote)

h) Jerry Weist - 90

 

1995 Sotheby's auction

 

1) Mohawk Valley Showcase 4 - ACG 86 - CGC 8.5

 

No individual grades are shown.

 

[fantastic_four]

Well I guess I can't spell it out to you any clearer. These pedigree books are usually kept in Mylar, easily traceable and would not be splayed out for an OS Grading Guide.

 

What's the difference between Overstreet and Carter passing this book back and forth to each other for the grading guide as opposed to the Sotheby's panel passing it back and forth? Are you inferring that Bob and Gary were more likely to handle the books roughly because the books weren't being sold?

 

First you say use Overstreet and Carter's grading as an example...then you take a dump all over their book. What's up with that? Be specific in what you mean.

 

 

The grade given was also done as per Overstreet standards and as it was for "investment sale", great care was taken in the grading and restoration checks. It was kind of like CGC today, only without the slab.

 

Give me the specifics of what you mean. Tell me exactly how the Sotheby's graders graded differently than Bob and Gary for the 1992 guide. You are simply talking out of your arse on this, and it's for the same reason you always argue these points to death--you're an arrogant insufficiently_thoughtful_person who has to turn every debate into an argument to prove yourself right.

 

Bob and Gary put their reputations as graders on display in that 1992 book...I can't see why you'd think they'd do it half-arsed. Are you saying they tanked the book, didn't do the same kind of job they would've done if they were doing it for Sotheby's?

 

 

That these premium books graded in the early 90's come back at CGC grades equivalent to their auction grades, tells me a lot more than some isolated example in an old grading guide.

 

I think you've forgotten what post you were even responding to...Blowout was saying that the old guide is outdated, and I responded with why looking at it can be useful. He was dismissing the usefulness of the guide as a whole...I was explaining why it's useful. Nobody has been exclaiming "look at only one grade and that tells you volumes!" The way you mischaracterize these discussions makes it mostly not even useful to get into a discussion to you in the first place.

 

 

If you want examples, check out the Sotheby's portion of the 1990's Overstreet Annuals and then do some cross-referencing. That CGC 9.4 Amazing Fantasy bought for $150K (that everyone likes to talk about) is an obvious example of a NM comic sol dthrough Sotheby's circa '91.

 

I will, and I hope you'll do it for the rest of us like Hoodeehoo tried to do in this thread before you had to be an about his point. Are you saying the CGC 9.4 AF 15 Mark Wilson is selling is the same one Sotheby's gave a NM grade?

[joe_collector]

1993 Sotheby's auction

 

Greggy, you are da man!!

[joe_collector]

Are you saying the CGC 9.4 AF 15 Mark Wilson is selling is the same one Sotheby's gave a NM grade?

 

No idea, but I do know the White Mountain CGC 9.4 that garnered all the big-bucks attention was. And kudos for Greggy actually digging up the data:

 

1) White Mountain Amazing Fantasy 15 - ACG (Committee for Authenticity, Certification, and Grading) grade - 94 - CGC grade 9.4.

 

I'd also recommend you read his post before spouting off anymore.

[greggy]

Are you saying the CGC 9.4 AF 15 Mark Wilson is selling is the same one Sotheby's gave a NM grade?

Nope...that one was sold in the 2000 Sotheby's auction already CGC graded. It originally had the following notes: " Slight tanning edges of interior front and back cover". JP won it for $55,375 including the premium. I believe he is the person who requested that the notes be removed at a later date!

[fantastic_four]

Any idea how long Sotheby's had these 8-man grading panels? Those panel grades are extremely interesting...I'd love to see more of those.

 

Joe mentioned they were in the Overstreet annuals...is that where you read that from greggy? Or did you get it from their old catalogs?

[greggy]

Any idea how long Sotheby's had these 8-man grading panels? Those panel grades are extremely interesting...I'd love to see more of those.

 

Joe mentioned they were in the Overstreet annuals...is that where you read that from greggy? Or did you get it from their old catalogs?

Got them from the catalogs. Have all the Sotheby's and Christie's East ones. As you can see with the 1995 auction, they did not break down the individual grader's grades at least with the Mohawk Valley Showcase 4.

 

[Foolkiller]

anybody know what joe verenault's doing these days? He was really a big player back a few years ago... now I never hear about him.

[fantastic_four]

I'd also recommend you read his post before spouting off anymore.

 

You mean...read a post...AND think about it...before spouting off a half-arsed opinion just to belittle the person I'm responding to?

 

But then...you wouldn't be able to respect or relate to the points being made!!!

 

I still want to hear more about what your problem with Overstreet and Carter's grading in the 1992 guide is, keeping in mind the context of the industry the year it was released.

[greggy]

anybody know what joe verenault's doing these days? He was really a big player back a few years ago... now I never hear about him.

He has done the San Diego convention the last few years. I guess he still does mail order.

[joe_collector]

I still want to hear more about what your problem with Overstreet and Carter's grading in the 1992 guide is, keeping in mind the context of the industry the year it was released.

 

I have no "problem" with it, but any sane individual would see a far greater comparison to the industry heavy-weights using early-90's criteria to panel-grade premium comics for a Sotheby's auction, than some picture in a grading guide.

 

If you want to draw comparisons, use similar procedures and have it actually relate to the marketplace. The Sotheby vs. CGC graders is a perfect match, and as Greggy has proven, their overall results are consistent (even though these specific examples are weighted towards Sotheby's for harshness).

 

It all depends on where you put more emphasis: a group of the industry's premier graders evaluating some of the most prolific comics in existence for one of the largest auction houses, or a fuzzy picture from a grading guide that has admitted problems.

[PovertyRow]

I have to say one example does not an argument make. We have all seen travesties in CGC grading. We have seen travesties in dealer grading. We have seen travesties in Sotheby grading.

 

What we have YET to see is any grading that is consistent to any set of specifications real or imagined.

[blowout]

think you've forgotten what post you were even responding to...Blowout was saying that the old guide is outdated, and I responded with why looking at it can be useful. He was dismissing the usefulness of the guide as a whole...I was explaining why it's useful.

 

I appreciate that the guide is useful for comparative purposes, but do you have to continually refer to it/ post scans from it to illustrate CURRENT grading issues?

 

Maybe its time to buy yourself a copy of the new grading guide.

[joe_collector]

Anyone else want to give me 5 Stars for my amazing restraint in the face of overwhelming insults?

 

P.S. Greggy saved my [!@#%^&^], as there was no way I was trekking to the basement for my old Overstreet's. I guess I'd better pay for my books now.

[mr_highgrade]

For what it's worth...my friend won a run of TTA # 35-101 in VF+ (67) in the 12/18/91 Sotheby's auction. Issue # 35 (the most expensive book from the lot) came back from CGC 4.5 VG+(A) Restored. Color touch on the spine. The color touch was done in marker no less.

[greggy]

For what it's worth...my friend won a run of TTA # 35-101 in VF+ (67) in the 12/18/91 Sotheby's auction. Issue # 35 (the most expensive book from the lot) came back from CGC 4.5 VG+(A) Restored. Color touch on the spine. The color touch was done in marker no less.

Why didn't he check it back in the day?

[supapimp]

Anyone else want to give me 5 Stars for my amazing restraint in the face of overwhelming insults?

 

 

i rated you 5 stars a long time ago

[joe_collector]

For what it's worth...my friend won a run of TTA # 35-101 in VF+ (67) in the 12/18/91 Sotheby's auction.

 

Never, ever trust those big runs, no matter the source. There have been some scary surprises on here, even with EBay auctions for high-profile dealers.

 

I'm not condoning the practice, but that's part of the deal with buying large runs of "averaged grade" raw comics; there are going to be some dogs.