Game: SILVER AGE SURVIVOR SERIES - Round 18

[CAP Freak]

ME 2!

[Fan4Fan]

The idea that Lee would have come up with Spider-man anyway is pretty unlikely. He may never have been given the green light to even try. It was just as likely that he would have left comics in the next few years and moved to Hollywood to write screenplays, or tried his hand at writing novels

 

Playing this "What If" game is pretty stupid, as no one knows what would or could have happened, and my theory that there is a "right time" for everything, and that great minds gravitate to the zeitgeist regardless of other influences, negates that totally.

 

Look at Bell and Marconi - the time was right for the telephone, and these were only two of the people working towards it. It would have happened whether Bell did it, or Marconi or someone else.

 

Or for a pop culture example, look at 1977, with both Lucas and Spielberg working on space sci-fi films - do you really think that was a big coincidence? The market was ripe for that type of movie, and both of these guys were tuned into that vibe.

 

I firmly believe, based on the incredible success of the Silver Age, and the resultant books, TV shows, movies, etc. that sprung from it, that a brand new line of super-heroes were destined to emerge, and it was only a matter of time before someone tapped into it the way Stan Lee did.

 

Ah yes, the old "fate" argument. The laziest and yet most seductive form of illogical thinking. No offense.

 

No, not fate.

 

If Darwin hadn't published on evolution, then Wallace would have a few years later.

 

If Newton hadn't codified calculus, then Liebniz would have.

 

etc.

 

Granted, we might have gotten the earlier incarnation of Lee's insectoid hero - Fly-Man - but who's to say that the master huckster couldn't have propelled that creation to the same heights of popularity.

 

[Wally's Comics]

[joe_collector]

Ah yes, the old "fate" argument. The laziest and yet most seductive form of illogical thinking. No offense.

 

No offense taken, as you should be the one who's embarrassed by calling this scenario "fate". Seriously, the concept must have zoomed over your head like a 747.

[joe_collector]

No, not fate.

 

If Darwin hadn't published on evolution, then Wallace would have a few years later.

 

If Newton hadn't codified calculus, then Liebniz would have.

 

etc.

 

 

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

With any scientific, cultural, etc. breakthrough, there are multiple people working on the same basic idea, so if one falls by the wayside, the others would pick up the torch.

[Fan4Fan]

No, not fate.

 

If Darwin hadn't published on evolution, then Wallace would have a few years later.

 

If Newton hadn't codified calculus, then Liebniz would have.

 

etc.

 

 

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

With any scientific, cultural, etc. breakthrough, there are multiple people working on the same basic idea, so if one falls by the wayside, the others would pick up the torch.

 

[thirdgreenham]

Just run away, Flash, and don't look back!

[Aman619]

No, not fate.

 

If Darwin hadn't published on evolution, then Wallace would have a few years later.

 

If Newton hadn't codified calculus, then Liebniz would have.

 

etc.

 

 

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

With any scientific, cultural, etc. breakthrough, there are multiple people working on the same basic idea, so if one falls by the wayside, the others would pick up the torch.

 

 

I see the parallel here, but Im still laughing at equating scientific research to the pimple-sized comic book business circa 1961. I suppose yeah, something else would have stuck, but in OUR reality (which comic book mythology aside) is the ONLY reality we have to go by, we have Showcase 4, then FF1 then AF15 all happening in sequence, each causing the next in greater or lesser degrees. This is the actual sequence of events that took place.

 

I dont think the concepts you guys point to in science apply to the arts, even the comic book arts. ESPECIALLY comic books, where "original thought and creativity" have always relied upon a safe "copycat" approach of off other successful characters and genres.

 

By your theory, had Stan Lee been hit by a bus in 1960, Marvel would have STILL been launched successfully because ( xxx) would have taken over and written their comics. Who do you think that could have been? Its a small pool of comics creators available. Maybe Kirby? We'd have had the Fourth World a decade sooner maybe, and no Marvel Age of Comics.

 

Its fun to consider What Ifs, sure. But we got here based on what REALLY happened.

[JohnT]

No, not fate.

 

If Darwin hadn't published on evolution, then Wallace would have a few years later.

 

If Newton hadn't codified calculus, then Liebniz would have.

 

etc.

 

 

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

With any scientific, cultural, etc. breakthrough, there are multiple people working on the same basic idea, so if one falls by the wayside, the others would pick up the torch.

 

 

I see the parallel here, but Im still laughing at equating scientific research to the pimple-sized comic book business circa 1961. I suppose yeah, something else would have stuck, but in OUR reality (which comic book mythology aside) is the ONLY reality we have to go by, we have Showcase 4, then FF1 then AF15 all happening in sequence, each causing the next in greater or lesser degrees. This is the actual sequence of events that took place.

 

I dont think the concepts you guys point to in science apply to the arts, even the comic book arts. ESPECIALLY comic books, where "original thought and creativity" have always relied upon a safe "copycat" approach of off other successful characters and genres.

 

By your theory, had Stan Lee been hit by a bus in 1960, Marvel would have STILL been launched successfully because ( xxx) would have taken over and written their comics. Who do you think that could have been? Its a small pool of comics creators available. Maybe Kirby? We'd have had the Fourth World a decade sooner maybe, and no Marvel Age of Comics.

 

Its fun to consider What Ifs, sure. But we got here based on what REALLY happened.

 

Couldn't have said it better. Comparing the advance of science to how art happens is just illogical, cluttered thinking.

 

Great storytelling is not a modern phenomena, and when it surfaces it depends on individual genius and opportunity, not some preordained evolution, or some latent readiness in the audience to receive it.

 

Back to Stan Lee...he'd been working in comics for a couple of decades before he found an opportunity to flower. It could have easily not happened, just like it didn't happen for the previous 20 years.

 

 

[joe_collector]

Couldn't have said it better. Comparing the advance of science to how art happens is just illogical, cluttered thinking.

 

Guess you guys missed my post on both Lucas and Spielberg working on sci-fi movies for 1977, at a time when the genre was supposedly dead. Or the fact that when Easy Rider was released, there were a ton of similar non-studio projects already underway and ready for release in the next year or two.

 

As Biskind states in Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, "If Hopper hadn't done it first, then someone else would have."

 

But neophytes looking in just assume that Easy Rider emerged from a wasteland and that it was totally responsible for the anti-studio movement in the late-60's and early-70's, when that is a totally simplistic and idiotic stance to take. These guys just had a way of tuning into the zeitgeist of the times and supplying people with exactly what they wanted, just as Stan Lee did in the 60's. If not them, then someone else would fill the market need.

 

Same with stating that if Showcase 4 was not released that superheroes would NEVER have come into vogue again. The time was right, a cultural revolution was upon us, and if not Showcase 4, then some other book would have been first.