lou_fine

Perfect case in point being this beauty of a book here, as compared to that fugly Gangsters Can't Win #2 with the exact same equivalent CGC 8.5 grade. Interesting to note that the serial number for this copy of X-Men is no longer in their system, so I assume they must have paid their proper dues to the CCG ownership in order to get their rightful and proper grade which they probably should have receive from the get go.

Would you happen to be referring to those near invisible but easily fixable additional revenue generating defects that used to be much lower down on collector's hit parade in the old days prior to CGC, but which have continually shot up the chart with a bullet as CGC's undisclosed grading standards have devolved evolved over time?

Greatly appreciate your response here. Dumb question here, are you implying there is a 3-step process here in terms of a pre-grader and then graders before the book goes to a finalizer? Your post here would seem to indicate that the Grader's Notes would be a pretty comprehensive list of all of the defects that would go into determining the final grade. Yet, many boardies here state that this is not necessarily the case as it's not incumbent on the grader's to list all or even any of the defects, which explains why a book that receives a CGC grade of 9.0 can have the exact same notes as one that comes back with a CGC 9.6 grade or CGC 9.8 in future rounds.

I was thinking the same thing. What makes you say this because from a strict visual presentation POV: it would certainly appear to present nicer than that fugly looking CGC 9.9 graded with that huge eyesore of a miswrap.

Well, I guess it really depend.........if you are a old school collector from the days prior to CGC, it definitely makes all the difference in the world. If you are a new generation CGC era type collector/speculator/flipper.................nah, not so much as the only thing that matters is that big huge number on the top left hand corner of the slab. Yeah, doesn't make much sense from a collector's POV to have CGC ignore a miswrap on a book when you can see it from clear across the convention hall, and yet apply the grading sledge hammer to near invisible spine ticks which you can see only when you hold the book up at a certain angle to the light. Then again, I guess it makes perfect financial business sense to the CCG ownership from a top line and bottom line POV.

All I can say here is that somebody must really believe that the graders are billion dollar robots and grading is an exact science, as opposed to the fact that grading is done by a human being and is really nothing more than just a subjective opinion (albeit a so-call expert one) at the time a book crosses a grader's table. As such, the first and pretty much only thing I see here is how fugly off-center this book is, especially since it is supposedly a CGC 9.9 graded copy that just sold for $52K: : https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Damazing%2Bspider%2Dman%2B361%26ItemType%3DCB%26CGC%3DYES%23Item_1503402&id=1503402&itemType=0#detail In fact, so off-center to the point that if I had seen this copy on the shelves of the LCS when it first came out, I sure as heck would have flipped right past it or have drove to another comic shop in order to find a copy that wasn't off-centered at all.

Okay, back to the topic at hand and even though we've still got a long ways to go, a bit surprised to see how relatively well this book is doing to this current point in time: https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/suspense-comics-8-the-promise-collection-pedigree-continental-magazines-1945-cgc-nm-92-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7246-92162.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=3|0 Already at $17K excluding the BP juice which puts it only $1,500 behind the much ballyhooed and overhyped much higher graded CGC 9.8 Promise copy of Suspense Comics 11 with its classic Devil cover. Will certainly be interesting to sit back and watch the final results for this Suspense run from the Promise Collection, even tough it's missing the first four issues of the run.

oh yeah -- that's how the seller gets the big bucks!! It's when the REAL bidding starts ......... Well, if you buy into the business model that's being alluded to in a couple of the other threads in Comics General which is actually old news, the REAL REAL bidding starts when the BIG MAN calls down from his corner suite on the top floor and starts to self bid against himself in order to put the book back into inventory for future use again, all at no cost to either himself or to the auction house.

Only Lou Fine is allowed to fret and obsess over internet bidding before the live auction! Count me in also and that's only because most boardies don't have the same deep pockets that you 3 gentlemen have, and as a result, it's only incumbent on a good samaritan collector like me to point out bargain basement items to other financially challenged buyers like myself who don't swim in the same deep end of the pool as you guys. As for the Punch 12, it's simply amzing how collecting tastes have changed over the years as I remember taking part in a CBM survey back in the mid-90's and I was the one and only reader to have 'Tec 31 and Punch 12 listed as one of their Top 5 GA covers of all time. Then again, I also had Adventure 73 with the classic Kirby manhunter cover on my Top 5 List and we all know how stone cold dead and frozen that book has been over the past couple of decades. Heck, even if there was a CGC 9.8 graded copy of Adventure 73 from the Promise Collection, even all of the associated hype from this pedigree might not be strong enough to wake this book up from its decades long slumber.

Now, that Boy Comics 29 has got to be one of the nicest Harold Curtis Books that I have ever seen on these boards here.

Greatly appreciate your thoughts here since you did used to work at CGC before in the past. Whie you are giving us your personal conjecture here, can you also give us the lowdown on the Grader's Notes at the sane time. Seems that many boardies here feel that the Grader's Notes is not necessarily a listing of all or even any of the defects that goes into determining the grade of a book, as they are just internal notes from one grader to the next and really nothing more than that. As far as you are aware, is this actually true, and if so, why in the world should we be paying for Grader's Notes since they aren't necessarily providing the purchaser with all of the defects that goes into the determination of the final grade?

Wow, I envy that actor who played the Invisible Man Yes, although we certainly can't see him because he invisible, it certainly seems like she's feeling all of him from her reaction.

This is a nice one! Yes, congrats to Richard as this indeed looks like a nice copy from the scan relative to grade and also at a reasonable price to boot. Especially since I've always loved these big squarebound books and it's hard to find a bigger one than this book here.

To tell you the honest truth, I absolutely love the Silver Surfer run of books and in particular, those first several early 25 cents giant size issues. Was looking with interest at the auction result for this one here to see how close it would get to the $90K price point that the Heritage 9.8 copy managed to get back in June. Close relative to other prior sales results, but no cigar which was actually not surprising at all, as it came in at $67K which I feel is still a pretty strong confirming sales result for this late classic cover SA book here. The thing that I found rather interesting when I checked earlier today is that the GoCollect website indicates that the FMV for a CGC 9.8 copy of this book is set right at this $90K price point. Especially since there has only been one single solitary sale at this price point with all other Universal sales in this grade down in the teens or lower, albeit from very recent prior years. So, I guess when it comes to determining FMV from GoCollect's POV, one sale does indeed make a market. Probably makes the CL buyer today feel like they got themselves a steal of a deal at only $67K. Since TMNT 1 kind of took this same path in 2019 with their astounding $90K sale in Heritage (hmmm.....wonder who the buyer was) from prior sales in only the low to mid $30K price point, let's hope the Surfer 4 follows the same path forwards. If I remember correctly, this $90K sale was then folllowed up by some subsequent sales in the $50K price range before moving into the $60K level (right before the HA $90K copy was flipped out in a very low profile non-auction sale for $59K ), and yet now the TMNT 1 book in 9.8 is at something like $240K today. So yes, since Silver Surfer 4 in 9.8 or any HG condition as a matter of fact is an amazing collectible, I also hope it can follow this same path and approach this quarter million mark going forward.

Yes. My post was somewhat tongue in cheek. It's well known that Heritage owns/owned a piece of NGC/CGC. Not sure why you are mentioning only 2 of the subsidary companies here, as I believe you are actually referring to CCG (i.e. Certified Collectibles Group) which I believe is made up of about 7 subsidary certification companies including NGC. CGC, CCS, etc. Interesting to note that CCG claims to have certified over 60 million items since they started up in 1987 which means that the CGC portion of their overall total business is really not that significant when it's all said and done. Something that was pretty much confirmed by West here when he said that the primary ownership or founders pretty much treated CGC like an afterthought when he was working there.

Exactly, and that is why I have always said that you can never tell if a book is undergraded without having the actual book in hand or by simply looking at a front and back cover scan. Then again, sometimes the clear and visual defects seen on the cover scans of a book alone is more than enough to make you question if the book is possibly overgraded, without having to consider the "hidden parts" of the book which you cannot see from a scan. Greatly appreciate your sense of humour here, as it seems that far too many of our board members here just take these things too seriously sometimes. Actually, it should be pointed out that I am not the original source of the condition issues noted on these Promise Collection books here, as they are usually sourced from another boardie's post and sometimes I just try to add a touch of humour to them in an attempt to lighten the mood a bit. Especially since I've received quite a few PM's from other boardies who seem almost ready to burst a gasket with some of the things they think are happening here. This should definitely not be the case because these are all about the funny books after all. And as you said and which I have also stated many times here before.................as a comic book collector, you should always buy the book, as opposed to buying the label. Especially since grading is really nothing more than a subjective opinion (albeit it a so-called "expert" one) at the time a book crosses the grader's table, as opposed to being an exact science.

Why, thank you kind sir, as I always seek to do my best here.

If it was just this factor alone and nothing else, then I would take the AF 15 over the Bat 1. But since these 2 books are more than just about the first appearances of these 3 iconic comic book characters, if you consider every collectible factor about these 2 books, choosing the Bat 1 over the Af 15 is a no-brainer to me.

After looking at so many of the Promise Collection scans consigned by Heritage which other boardies have posted with nosebleed high grades and yet exhibiting clear visual defects, exactly what are you guys seeing wrong with this Silver Surfer 4 to say that it is not a CGC 9.8 worthy book? Especially when you have to realize that grading is still really nothing more than a subjective opinion (albeit a so-called expert one) at a particular point in time when it crosses a grader's table. Grading is definitely nowhere close to an exact science, and as such, it is normal to expect an acceptable grading margin of error. The main concern which I have here is that their margin of error definitely appears to be rather quite wide right now, especially in the case of the Promise Collection books. Which then raises the question of why some bidders would pay multiples more for a book that might be graded only 1 or 2 increments higher, but then again, more power to them for having that kind of faith since I guess it's really a case of to each their own.

Looks like this CGC 9.8 graded copy just close at $86K earlier tonight: https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?id=1504661 So, are you saying recent CGC 9.8 graded copies of Hulk 181 have been selling at consistently higher price points then this?

Once the promise collection is sold out, then the real prices begin, this pedigree will have way more demand than supply and prices will go up from there. Hey Mitch; Absolutely love your unbridled and unabashed enthusiasm for this Promise Collection pedigree set of books here. My question is just how confident are you that the nosebleed prices for these books here will continue to rocket up into the stratosphere faster than the speed of light? Especially since I believe you also had the same sentiment when the Billy Wright Collection first came out on Heritage back at the start of 2012. If I remember correctly, most of those books ended up being resold at substantially lower prices when some of the buyers tried to flipped them out too soon. Or are you simply assuming that Jimmy boy will still be out there continuing to drive up the prices of these books here through his own Heritage platform, as so many of us here have speculated already, based upon his long and shall we say rather infamous track history in the coin market before transferring his "expertise" into comics with both CCG in 2000 and Heritage in 2002, and now wanting to use the same game plan with WATA and video games: Don't you love the games people play, and especially the part at the 25-minute mark where he explains how Jimmy boy plied his craft in the comic book market which we on the boards here kind of suspected anyways. Makes me wonder if he got a little too greedy and overplayed his hand a bit here once he got his grubby mitts on the Promise books in terms of some of the Mr. Magoo-like grades we've seen on some of the Promise Collection books here and also some of the almost wacky out of this universe prices that we saw for some of the not so rare books (which he probably has in quantity) in the last Heritage auction in a seeming attempt to climb multiple rungs on his never-ending ladder of greed in one step. All I can say is that I hope he's still out there right at the top of his game when it comes time for me to dispose of some of the books from my long held collection here.

Well, looks like it won't take us that long to find out as it's now only 2 more sleeps until we see where this copy of Surfer 4 finishes up at: https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FPreviewCode%3D2021aug%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dsurfer%2B4%26GO%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_1503177&id=1503177&itemType=0#detail Sitting at only $23,250 which is a long ways from $90K, but still lots of time to go and with that CVA Exceptional sticker, this copy should have no problems hitting 6-figures if we assume that Heritage copy auctioned off in June wasn't shilled bid all the way up to $90K.

Although one can never really be sure about the condition grade of a book without actually having it in hand, based simply upon the visual cover scans only, I would tend to say that this CGC 8.5 graded copy of Gangsters Can't Win #2 here which they auctioned off for $10,800 this past weekend: sure looks a whole heck of a lot closer in condition to this CGC 5.0 graded copy of Gangsters Can't Win #2 which Heritage auctioned off for only $1,560 in one of their earlier Sunday auctions only a few short weeks ago: https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/gangsters-can-t-win-2-ds-publishing-1948-cgc-vg-fn-50-off-white-pages/a/122130-17506.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515# as compared to this equivalent non-Heritage submitted CGC 8.5 graded copy of a GA File Copy book from the late 1930's which I had posted in another thread here for strict visual comparison purposes:

I would certainly hope so, and especially for the Silver Surfer books, as I've already got my fingers crossed for the. So, are you really saying that Silver Surfer 4 will be one of the next ones to hit 6-figures, considering that this copy here sold for $90K in the last Heritage Auction: https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/the-silver-surfer-4-marvel-1969-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7244-91017.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

On the other hand, maybe it's just my bad as there must be at least 2 people (well okay, only 1 if Jimmy boy himself is the other bidder here ) who also must think these are truly production flaws and the book is actually undergraded and they've got themselves a steal of a deal here. Especially since this bidding battle last night must have been long and hard fought as this Promise Collection pedigree copy ended up selling for a piddly $10,800 or just over 40X its condition guide value of a whopping $268.