sfcityduck

Until someone identifies Robert and "Junie" this is all just speculation. I am not convinced by the story Heritage has told. It rings a bit false in my ears. That's why I did this research. What I found is a similar, but much more compelling story. A human story, that isn't targeting comic collectors, but is accessible to all people. Again, my speculation might be wrong. But, it is difficult for me to accept Heritage's story without some proof. And they are giving us nothing. Giving us nothing, despite that they opine the story boosts the value of the books by "multiples."

So here's how the story of the two brothers I found ends. I'm going to abbreviate this in light of the post above as I await a follow up PM. In 1954, Sr. fills out a headstone application. But, here's the thing: The headstone application reflects that Jr. was KIA in the Summer of 1950. It specifies the battle. I won't go into that now. What's that mean? It means that it could very well be that between 1950 and 1953/1954 there was doubt as to Jr.'s survival. Whether he was MIA or POW. Robert enlists in the Army in late Fall 1950. Why? Pure speculation, but maybe he wanted to go to Korea and "save" his younger brother. Maybe the family has garbled the story as the years have gone by. Think how heart breaking it must have been if I'm right. Robert, after buying comics for his brother for two years, learns he is MIA or POW. He elects to enlist as a result. That's why the collection ends with the late 1950 release dates. But, Robert serves his two years, being discharged in late 1952. The Korean War ends. And bodies are recovered and MIA and POW mysteries start getting resolved. Turns out Jr. was KIA two months before Robert enlisted. It is only in 1954, four years after Jr. has died, that the family gets a headstone. Frankly, I think it is a great story. A story of the heroic impulses of two working/middle class kids. Far better a story than what Heritage has told. I can't help but hope this turns out to be the right pair of brothers. And now we wait and see. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It is a possibility I have acknowledged from the beginning. And if I'm wrong, just delete all references to comic books, and you still have a very inspiring story. I'm in no hurry to drop the names. But I hope Heritage has the courage to address this head on, and not string it along until they can do their own revised write up. That would be disappointing, if not distasteful. I'd have hoped they would have shot down my speculation, if wrong, by now.

PM sent. Feel free to straighten me out, and I'll delete the thread. In the meantime, I'll continue the story of the two brothers I found, because even if I've got the wrong pair, it is a compelling story.

So why does the fact there were two drafts, with a gap between them, and with the second draft starting in 1948 matter? Two potential reasons: First, records of draft cards for the draft enacted for 1948 are had to come by. There's no doubt that Robert was required to register for the 1948 draft because he would have been twenty at that point, but I have not obtained that draft card. And it is also possible that his 1946 draft card had the effect of registering him for the 1948 draft. In either event, the 1948 draft requirement was enacted and became effective in June 1948, and Robert was eligible as soon as the draft became effective. Second, the family's story as relayed by Heritage is: Frankly, I've always thought this story was implausible also. We are to believe that a younger brother enlisted to keep watch over his older brother who was drafted? Isn't that backwards? It's a pretty extraordinary claim. We are to believe that the "Junie" is so concerned about taking care of his older brother that he voluntarily enlists to join the Army because his older brother was drafted, but "Junie" is so concerned about his "funny books" that he asks the older brother he is to protect to watch over them if something should happen to himself. Really weird story. Outside the fanatic comic collecting community it would be deemed entirely implausible. It's also, I think, a naïve story. What kid would actually think he'd be assigned to the same Army unit as his drafted brother? And if I'm right about the I.D. of the two brothers, based on the info I have about them, that facet of the story is not entirely accurate. It is not far from the facts, and it could very well have been twisted a bit as the family stories were passed down and memories faded. So let's not jump to nefarious conclusions. And, more importantly, what I think is the true story is actually more compelling. The younger brother of Robert I located, "Jr.", did something very similar to Robert's voluntary enlistment into the Merchant Marine at age 16. Jr., at age 17, in 1948, before the draft was reinstated, voluntarily enlisted in the Army. Jr. wasn't even of draft age yet. He enlisted the day after he turned 17, the first day he could have enlisted in the Army. He'd grown up loving superhero, adventure, and war comics, and maybe they brought out the hero in him. The military records I have found show Robert, the older brother in my pair, as not having an enlistment date until late 1950. So the "younger brother enlisted to look after older brother" story just doesn't work with my pair. But, these facts suggests that the "promise" that may actually have been made was that Robert (and maybe the parents) would make sure they kept buying Jr.'s favorite comics while he was in the service. This could explain the comments we heard the other night about how the later comics look unread. They may well have been unread. If true, ironically enough, these facts are exactly the same promise that is at the core of the San Francisco story: a promise to buy an absent soldier the comics he loves while he's gone. That the comics stop being purchased in late 1950 corresponds to Robert's own enlistment in the Army. So this is the promise that I think it is really at the heart of this collection if my I.D. is right. But, we haven't discussed yet what happened to Jr. and Robert. That's going to break your heart. At this point, some may think I've diverged too far from Heritage's story for this to be right pair of brothers. Maybe so. But, if not, again, no reason to suspect anything nefarious. Because I think the story I'm about to tell is as compelling as they come. And it may all end up tying back together enough that the discrepancies can be written off to fading memories.

You are correct that in many states Parents are the first heirs of their children, not siblings. But, if, as Heritage told the story, "Junie" asked "Robert" to take care of his comics, and "Junie's" parents knew of that request, they would presumably have given the comics to Robert because that was "Junie's" wish. That Robert had possession of the comics for 50 years is strong evidence that his parents gave him the comics. My guess is also he owned those comics for 50 years without any complaint from the two other younger siblings or the parents. These facts, if present, evidence Robert's sole ownership to the comics. So I don't think we're going to see any dispute brought by Robert's siblings or their heirs. This is all pure speculation and not a legal opinion.

I should mention one other fact. The WWII draft was result of the passage of the Selective Training and Service Act on September 16, 1940. The World War II draft operated from 1940 until 1946 when further inductions were suspended, and its legislative authorization expired without further extension by Congress in 1947. However, with the Cold War heating up, Congress then enacted the Selective Service Act of 1948. The new law required all men of age 18 to 26 to register. My references above were to Jr.'s 1946 draft card.

The story of the two brothers I found starts with their parents. The father, we'll call him "Sr.," was born after the turn of the century. The mother, we'll call her "Mom" was five years younger than her husband. How'd they meet? I don't know. Must have been a love match because Sr. and Mom were married only three months before their first child was born. And they stayed married until the end as far as I can tell. They had been born in different states in the East, but had moved a bit westward and presumably met in the city in which they were married. Folks have speculated that the family must have been rich for a kid or kids to have amassed 5,000 comics. That's not the case, because we know that the OOs of the MH, Cooktown, Larson, and Dave Wigransky's 5,000+ book collection were all compiled by middle class folks. Here, various documents reflect that Sr. attended 8 years of school and then worked a laborer, a shoemaker, an attendant, and for the government. Mom stayed home to take care of the four kids - two boys and two daughters, in that order. They were a pretty typical working/middle class family. Lived in a house. The two boys were born around 1928 and 1931. "Robert," the older, is an interesting fellow. A blue eyed blonde haired kid with a light complexion, he apparently dropped out of H.S. in the early part of 1944, probably right after turning 16, and volunteered for the Merchant Marine. At the time, Merchant Marine sailors were civilians, but Merchant Marine ships could carry weapons and they were auxiliaries to the Navy. Innumerable Merchant Marine transports were torpedoed during WWII. But, it could be a very good job. Especially if you had steady work in an area where there was no risk of your ship being sunk. The Merchant Marine worked the Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, and even the Great Lakes. We can infer that Robert was a sailor in the Merchant Marine, because his WWII draft card from 1946 (the year he turned 18) reflects that he had a tattoo on his upper arm. Robert wasn't living with the rest of his family when he executed the 1946 draft card after he turned 18, as far as I can tell. The younger brother, we'll call him "Jr.", was two years younger than Robert. He was a kid throughout WWII. And this is where I have to stop, pause, and again acknowledge that I am speculating because the story is about to diverge a bit from Heritage's telling.

Yes. I've considered whether every aspect of the story and, indeed, whether the entire story is false. When I first read the story on Bleeding Cool, I thought: "This "Promise' story is frigging ridiculous!" It is either "family mythology" or really naïve and cynical puffery. I thought, "This is just a spin on the San Francisco story where it wasn't the family buying the comics and storing them while the soldier is at war, it is the OO buying the comics with the storing part changed to after he dies." I was shocked they were retreading a story, the SF story, that had never even been verified. The story seemed entirely implausible. After all, if you're a 19 to 21 year old going off to war, are you really going to tell your brother: "If something happens to me take care of my funny books"!?! Not "take care of my dog" or "take care of our sisters" or "take care of our parents" or "take care of my girl" even. Instead, the story told by the family through Heritage was "take care of my funny books"! "Funny books" were only worth pennies on the dollar back then. And I don't think soldiers going to war, especially if, as the family through Heritage told the story, they were volunteering to go to war to protect a family member, would have their "funny books' uppermost in their thoughts. My initial impression was: "What total B.S. A dumb story for a dumb pedigree name." You could not make up a story more targeted to the present comic market. The story seemed too good to be true. And I don't think I was alone in thinking that. Does anyone really disagree? So I set out to find out what I could. And to do that, I have to take something from the story as true. If the starting premise is that Heritage is lying about the story, your end point is that the story is entirely made up. I wasn't prepared to jump to that conclusion. So I took certain information on faith, and started verifying what I could. Turns out, it was a very interesting and inspiring story. So I'll start telling it without any names or identifying information for the family.

I certainly have a lot of sympathy for the notion that a lottery winner should be entitled to remain anonymous. And, again, I might be wrong in my I.D. and don't want to paint anyone in a false light. But, as Brian and Matt recognized, the story is all important for this collection. The story is front and center. And, frankly, the story of the two brothers, as far as I know it, is better than the truncated story that the family has let Heritage tell. To be clear, I have copies of the older brother's draft registration card and the younger brother's death documents, I have verified the general facts of their military service, I know where they lived, what their father did for a living, when they set out to make their own independent way in the world, what the older brother was doing during the later part of WWII (and it was not sitting at home), and when and where the younger brother died in Korea, and it is a fantastic and inspiring story. But, I'm not going to jump the gun in revealing any names. So maybe there's a compromise. As I give time for someone to establish I'm wrong, I could start telling the facts about the two brothers I found, without revealing their names or other identifying information ... yet. I think that would thread the needle here. Anyone object to that?

You do realize that I was responding to a hypothetical, right? I'm not suggesting that the family, Heritage or CGC have done anything wrong. Obviously, if the facts were as the hypothetical put forth, that our silence was necessary to prevent family members with a RIGHT to the books from knowing of their existence and stopping the auction, then, yes, I would not want to aid anyone in ripping off family members with a legitimate right to the comics out of a selfish desire to have a shot at buying them sooner rather than later. I can't imagine anyone would think otherwise.

Having said that, I'm not going to float a name without basis. So if Heritage or CGC want to establish to me that my speculation is wrong, I'll abandon my speculation. I'm sure that they would not attempt to mislead me in order to suppress the story of these brothers from being confirmed.

Jon Berk's disclosure of Lamont Larson's identity did not cause Larson to become the target of harassment by the comic collecting community. So that is not a concern at all. The notion floated by the poster up thread that the information should stay under cover because "If there is a dispute by other family members RIGHT OR WRONG, the books could get locked up in a legal spiderweb" is, frankly, unethical. If Heritage or CGC acted in that fashion to try and suppress the info from coming out, they would be opening themselves up to serious liability for punitive damages if they were sued by the "absent" family members. They don't want that. No one wants that. So that argument is a non-starter. The grounds that the family's privacy is paramount makes perfect sense up until the point at which the family decides to market these comics by revealing this story: Why? Because the family has elected to boost the value of these comics by revealing the story. As buyers, we're entitled to verify the story. Brian and Matt both acknowledged the role of the story in the value of the books on the Tales From the Flipside interview. That makes the story worthy of discussion and no longer a private concern. Here's their comments:

I'm not surprised. I've known this since they started showing the comics. I've been sitting on this because I think you have to be very very cautious and certain in some situations. But here's the question, mystery man with 4 total posts on this site and is the ultimate insider: Why haven't your "certain circles" circulated the info? Think carefully before you answer.

Well, if there is a dispute between family members that is RIGHT, I would not be sad that the books get locked up. Because justice matters. I would not want to facilitate a screw job by staying silent. And since the story is going to come out one way or another over the next 18 months, I am sure Heritage and the family would rather sort this out up front than face the big damages claims later.

Turned into a contest. What else could the moderator do?

Scrooge's instant reaction to the last post made me LOL!

In case it is not transparent, I'm not going to be posting anything further until tomorrow so that Heritage or CGC, which both begin their days before I do on the West Coast, have the opportunity to let me know if I'm wrong in my speculation. They can do so by affirming that the brother who survived Korea died last year, not in 2001. Or they can contact me directly by PMing me a phone number, and I'd be happy to talk. Of course, if the thread gets locked or deleted without any definitive statement, that'd probably be telling, right? I'm sure that neither CGC nor Heritage would answer that question falsely, because that would potentially open them up to consequences. For those concerned about "outing," I want to emphasize, again, that I have not contacted the family of the two brothers I have identified (although I could do so), and have no intention of revealing the names of any family members or their contact info. To repeat, I think the brothers I've identified have a really interesting and compelling story. Hopefully, tomorrow I'll get to share some of it.

I'm not out to embarrass anyone. I think the correct view is probably that Brian just didn't have sufficient information and, in the heat of the interview, made an assumption or misremembered something he'd been told. It is not a make or break moment for anyone. It's just an inconsistency which has to be resolved. No need to jump to the conclusion that there was some intentional misleading going on. Especially since he was up front that the books have been bagged and boxed twenty years ago (which is consistent with Heritage's kept in the attic for over half a century line). And, as I've repeatedly said, there is always the possibility that I'm wrong in my speculation.

On sale dates are all 1950, which is significant, I think.

Where do you get that? I've heard hard stop in 1950.

I am not "outing" anyone who asks that their privacy be respected. I am planning to name two decedents. Why? See my answer immediately above your question. But let me ask you this, let's assume a hypothetical that I believe is not the case case here: What if neither Robert or Junie had served in the Army? What if the family's story was false about that? Should we let them tell such a story and not seek to verify it? Of course not! That would be stolen valor. Stories increase the prices on comics. Verifying them, fleshing them out, is important. Once someone tells a story to sell a comic, it is pretty well established that we're entitled as buyers to confirm the story. Here, if my I.D. is right, my conclusion is that Robert and Junie WERE in the Army, and Junie did die in battle.

My knee-jerk reaction is that if the family truly wanted to remain confidential they would not have decided to market these books by telling us the story of Robert and Junie, which is all the information I think we need to make an I.D. I think Matt put it well: “As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.” Why is that "fine"? Because as Heritage put it: I am not planning to reveal the names of the surviving brother's children, nieces, nephews, etc. I get that lottery winners don't want their names and addresses revealed if they can avoid it. I am just fleshing out a story that the family has already made public.

What I knew is that the census was taken by hand, the census takers didn't have a lot of room to write, and they used codes and abbreviations. So I ran a different search based on that knowledge. And when I ran that search, I found a family with a younger brother named Armand, who was a "Jr.," who had an older brother with the name "Robert." I did some more research and found a number of soldiers named "Armand," were a "Jr.," who had died in the Korean War. But, none of those had a brother named Robert who was in the Army during the Korean War. The Armand I found had died in Korea and his brother was in the Army during the Korean War. The pair of brothers I found had a story that, to me, was more interesting and reflective of America than the story being told by Heritage. BUT, here's the thing: The brothers I found do not exactly fit the story as floated by Brian the other night on Tales From the Flip Side or as told by Heritage in the Bleeding Cool article. Here's a key difference: Brian said that the older brother died last year. The older brother I found died in 2001. Here's why I think I'm right, and Brian got the older brother's date of death wrong. First, Brian has the story second hand. Second, he made some other statements which flatly contradicted the ad Heritage took out in Bleeding Cool, such as that the OO who died in Korea being the older brother, not the younger brother. As Brian told the story, he was sort of reasoning it out by trying to compute the age of the surviving brother by using Brian's grandfather's age as a reference point. The overall impression I got was that Brian said what he thought were the true facts, but he appeared to be unsure and was sort of reasoning it out on the fly. You can watch the video and make up your own mind. Or maybe Heritage will clarify the point (I'm not holding my breath as I don't think they are permitted to do so). We do know this: The Heritage ad on Bleeding Cool said "Robert came home from the war and fulfilled his promise to his brother. The comic books were carefully boxed up and put in an attic, where they stayed for over half a century." 2001 was 51 years after the "Armand Jr." I identified died. So that fits. And, most telling, Brian made the following statement with absolute conviction and surety during the interview when he was asked by Deno whether the books had been boxed and boarded before Ed and Lon first saw them: "Apparently, twenty years earlier they had bagged and boarded every single book. And stored them in long boxes." Twenty years ago was 2001, the year I think the former soldier who is older brother Robert died. So Riddle me this? What makes more sense: (a) The books get boxed and boarded because Robert's heirs did it when they were cleaning out his abode. After all, if you found 5,000 comics in your Dad's house after he died, wouldn't you go to a comic store and buy the materials to keep them safe until you had the emotional where with all to deal with them? You probably would if this was back when the OPG said most of those comics were worth only in the tens or hundreds of dollars in the VG shape the kids thought they were in (according to Brian). Even the CA 1 was a mid-four figure book, and the kids could have thought it was in poor condition (which it was compared to what they thought was VG) or didn't realize its significance. Or (b) A living Robert (who must have been in his 70s by then) decides the way he's stored the comics has not been good enough for the past 50 years and he decides to rush out and buy 5,000 bags and boards? For me, its an easy choice to think I've got this right. But, I'm going to pause now, before revealing the names of the brothers and their heroic story. Why? Because if someone knows I've got this wrong so far, I'd like them to let me know. No need to name who I think the brothers are if someone here can make a definitive statement that I'm wrong. If I'm not wrong, we'll start looking at some really interesting stuff about the two brothers. [More to Come?]

So what else do we have to work with? Actually, quite a lot. First, "Junie" is a nickname. A common nickname. For "Jr." Second, if I'm correct that "Junie" means "Jr." and Junie's real name was Armand, then we know that he is named either FIRST MIDDLE Armand, Jr. or Armand MIDDLE LAST, Jr. or FIRST Armand LAST, Jr. Moreover, if Armand is a Jr., then you know that his father must also have had Armand has a first, middle, or last name. I ran searches for soldiers who fought in Korea named Robert Armand who had brothers who died or were named _____ Armand, Jr. Struck out. So then I had to move on to first and middle names. Fortunately, my parents have reached the point in their lives where they've gotten into genealogy. And they have an Ancestry account. And Ancestry lets you run searches for families where a parent has a first/middle name of Armand, a son has a first/middle name of Armand, and a brother has a first/middle name of Robert. And guess what? When I ran that search 334 families fit the bill. But, in none of those families, as far as I could tell, were there two brothers (Robert and Armand) who fought in Korea and the brother named Armand had died. But, I wasn't done yet. Fortunately, I knew something about the 1940 U.S. Census, which is a key record for finding the family composition of someone who fought ten years later in Korea. [More to Come.]

Brian's eyes were scanning a -script or notes as he initially told the story. He admitted he had not been there on the day of discovery and he had the story second hand. He stated Bleeding Cool was the official version. Matt corrected him on the "collector was the older brother" statement, and Brian missed the hint. So I'm going with Bleeding Cool. But, the disconnect in Heritage and Brian's telling of the story is another reason why I call this speculation. We'll talk more about that later.