sfcityduck

No, they came from a private residence. He knew what store the OO bought the comics from based on some stamps and also walked through the house, now a medical office, where the OO lived and checked out what he thought would have been the OO’s bedroom. The OO’s name was in a few of the comics on coupons and on a few of the covers as initials. My belief, based on what BZ divulged (initials were "WTG"), is that the OO was a W.T. Gilchrist. I base this conclusion on this awe inspiring statement by BZ:

You're right, he was taking out "comics wanted" ads not selling ads. But, I believe he discussed selling comics as well. I know he attended the 1965 NYCC, and I thought he talked about setting up a table at one of those. Maybe I am misremembering, and the thread's too long for me to go back and look. EDIT: I went back and looked, and this is what I found Bangzoom to have said: "I acquired my first Golden Age comics in 1962 (Superman 9, Batman 23 and World's Finest 2) from a friend who returned home with them after a visit to an older relative. Those first GA comics got me hooked and I began searching for more old comics. None of my friends shared my passion and there weren't any shops around that sold back issues, so I began seeking out other sources. The letter columns of JLA comics back then were buzzing with older fans reminiscing about the comics of their childhood. I started writing to them, hoping someone would have some old comic books they would be willing to sell. Eventually I hooked up with Jerry Bails who, in November, 1963, sent me a copy of the fanzine The Comic Reader which was my introduction to comic fandom. At about that same time, I had made the acquaintance of a friend of my father's who collected Horatio Alger books. I had learned from him the value of advertising your wants in trade journals. So I took a cue from his methods and started advertising for old comics in antique magazines. I began buying collections and then selling off duplicates and any other unwanted issues through fanzines."

BZ had been dealing in comics (buying through ads in magazines and newspapers) since the early mid-60s. So I'm pretty sure his parents probably thought by then that he knew what he was doing. He's lucky they had the resources. BZ has a D27, Superman 1, Batman 1, AA 16, Pep 22, AS 3, AS 8, and many other great GA books, and I seem to recall him saying he never paid more than $50 for any of those issues.

... and at a later date.

I agree. For example, the Okajima pedigree has led to some wonderful threads on this site that have brought the history of the internment to light for a lot of readers who just didn't know about it. I also agree, as someone who has bought both art made in an internment camp and a graphic novel that survived the internment, that there's nothing wrong with the original artist or owner or their families selling the art. And if the art entered the market on the up and up, I find any argument for banning the trade in that art as entirely unconvincing. Here's an example of internment art from my collection:

I think your source on German internment makes the point about the differences in treatment: A very tiny fraction ("some") of German-American citizens were incarcerated. Only "relatively few" German nationals (who were free to become citizens of the U.S. if they were immigrants) were interned. In contrast, the entire Japanese-American population on the West Coast, about 75% of which were U.S. citizens, the rest being long time immigrants precluded from obtaining citizenship due to racist laws, were "relocated" to camps. But, I wanted to know your source on the Japanese internment as it is inaccurate. For example, the dates you edited in to your post to list "compensation" paid to Japanese American internees are also not accurate.

Don't know what you quoting, but there are a number of errors. First, the term "enemy alien" meant non-American citizens who were nationals of Axis countries. The majority of Japanese Americans thrown into the camps were not "enemy aliens" because they were American citizens having been born in the U.S. I know of no "relocation" of Italian American or German American citizens. The only exclusion order targeted Japanese Americans, both those who were U.S. citizens and those who were immigrants who had resided in the U.S. for most of their lives but (unlike Italians and German immigrants) were denied the opportunity to become U.S. citizens until explicitly racist immigration laws were repealed in 1952. Second, what you are calling "relocation camps" that Japanese-Americans were "free to leave" were actually incarceration camps that were ringed with barbed wire, armed guards, in some cases tanks, and which the internees were not "free to leave" at any time (in fact some were shot for getting too close to the fence). The were only allowed to leave with government approval. The forced relocation was a forced relocation to an incarceration camp. Depending upon the camp and the time period the restrictions on the internees did vary. I could go on and on, but I don't see the point unless you tell me where you got the misinformation. If you would like, I'd be happy to point you to a number of accurate sources, but I'm not sure there is a need on this thread.

Based on how the issue was addressed by President Reagan and many other members of the WWII generation back in the 1980s, I don't think that was true for many folks of the WWII generation. Many understood the injustice. For Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, who had been A.G. of California, internment was his greatest mistake. He stated he had “since deeply regretted the removal order and my own testimony advocating it, because it was not in keeping with our American concept of freedom and the rights of citizens. ... Whenever I thought of the innocent little children who were torn from home, school friends, and congenial surroundings, I was conscience stricken. It was wrong to react so impulsively, without positive evidence of disloyalty. . . .” Understanding of the injustice was, however, probably easier for folks of WWII generation on the West Coast where Japanese Americans were prominent and respected members of the community before they were put in the camps. It was a controversial move and there was opposition and protests to the incarceration and many folks outside of the Camps offered tangible support to their friends and neighbors in the Camps. Worth noting, though, that Italian Americans and German Americans weren't treated like the Japanese Americans (and even Japanese Americans not on the West Coast weren't tossed in camps). There were also many Japanese Americans who fought in WWII. The all Japanese American 442nd was the most decorated unit in American military history. Several members went on to become prominent U.S. Senators. Circling back to Okajima pedigree comics, I think that today the multiples are paid precisely because we do recognize the injustice of the internment. That's what gives those comics their greatly enhanced value.

The books are so hot that for the right WWII cover (especially the internment camp cover) I think you can get that. [Edited to add: over on the Okajima thread, a poster says the going premium is 10x to 20x guide or beyond for WWII era books with the name and "camp codes" on the cover. So sounds like you are offering a discount.] All joking (or is that woking?) aside, you don't have to be very aware to recognize the monumental injustice of incarcerating loyal Americans in concentration camps for the duration of WWII (and a little beyond). Those folks lost their property when they were thrown into the camps, and families were separated. It was such an obvious injustice that President Ronald Reagan was "woke" enough to authorize a payment to each surviving internee of $20K in reparations (about $40K today). At the time, there were at least 60,000 of them (I've read numbers as high as 100,000 camp survivors got paid reparations). President Reagan also issued a formal apology which included these remarks: Asian-Americans are experiencing a strange resurgence in bigotry towards them, so I can understand why the activists are taking strong stands. I would not support banning eBay sales of comics that came through internment camps if they came into the marketplace on the up and up, but I understand where the activists are coming from based on what Japanese-Americans were subjected to during WWII.

Oh, come on now............you actually made me Google up that word to see what it meant, although I had already guess it correctly. It means a city of cats.

As I said, I agree with you that Okajima comics are different in kind from art made in internment camps, so our opinions are the same on that. Some activists, based on their statements, would disagree with us on that. For example, 50objects has focused on such items as a gold pocket watch, and they were looking at including Okajima comics, in their series of articles on objects which reflect the internment experience. And there can be no real question that Okajima comics are being marketed and are selling at a premium based on their internment connection. So I think that there is a real risk that Okajima sellers should be aware of. Again, as I said, I have purchased art made in and of Topaz internment camp. It is my understanding that art was sold by the artists' family into the market. I am not losing any sleep over having bought it. That art, along with many other pieces by the artist I collect (Chiura Obata), have been preserved and now enjoy greater recognition because of collectors.

Fair enough, that was my interpretation.

Even later Foster is better than just about everyone else's high point. This piece from 1970 is purportedly the last page Foster drew on his own before John Cullen Murphy became involved. It's an ordinary page without a lot going on, yet each panel blows most other artists of his lifetime away:

Here's the question that should bother dealers: If everything you say is correct, and the internment angle doesn't matter, then why are collectors paying huge multiples of value to get an Okajima camp copy, especially on a WWII cover? We all know that the enhanced value of Okajima's is largely due to the internment camp angle. Okajima's are a really cool, ironic, and I'd argue iconic example of the Japanese-American experience during WWII. Having said that, I agree that they are different in kind than art made in a camp which is only in the market because the art was removed from the artist by fraud, theft, or government seizure, and instead was sold by the family. Some activists don't agree, and this is such a small portion of eBay's business it will be easy for eBay (and Liveauctioneers which includes items on Hakes and Heritage) to choose the activists' view. I do agree with the activists that there are examples where internment related items really should not be allowed to be sold at auction.

Correction Sotheby's. https://www.sothebys.com/en/series/dc-complete-the-ian-levine-collection

Offered for sale as a group through Christies. Don't know if it sold, but someone up thread said it did.

Just an FYI that sellers of Okajima pedigree comics on eBay might be facing the risk of their auctions being halted on eBay. In the interests of full disclosure, I have bought both paintings created in internment camps on eBay and a comic (not Okajima) which includes the owner's internment address in the book. I do not believe that, in all instances or even most instances, the trade in art or comics which come out of the internment camp context is improper or that auctions of those pieces should be halted. To the contrary, I think that collectors are responsible for the preservation of many internment camp related items, and that the Okajima comics most likely fall into that category. And, frankly, it is my understanding that both dealers in art and also activists concerned with the trade in internment camp art also have had a nuanced view on these issues. I personally think that there is a significant difference between a comic book bought in an internment camp and art made by an internee. Activists may disagree, especially as Okajima pedigree comics are selling for many multiples over other comparable issues solely because of their internment association. So the recent banning by eBay of an auction and the on-going discussions between eBay and activists are something that sellers of Okajima comics better keep an eye on. eBay's decision to halt an auction last week may be a harbinger for concern about selling Okajima comics on eBay (and possibly other venues). Here's why: There has been a controversy about the trade in Japanese internment camp art. The controversy started over a Liveauctioneers auction by Rago auction house in 2015 of approximately 450 (my best recollection) pieces of art made by internees. The internees had given the art to historian Allen Eaton while he was writing his 1952 book "Beauty Behind Barbed Wire: The Arts of the Japanese in Our War Relocation Camps," the first book on internment art. I have heard that Eaton told at least some internees that the art would be put in a museum. Instead, Eaton died and his daughter sold the collection to a collector, John Ryan of Conn., who held the collection for a number of years before putting the collection up on Rago. When the auction went public, families of internees who had contributed art to Eaton were outraged that art they were told would end up in a museum was being sold in the collectors market and was about to be broken up. Activists (rightly in my opinion) became involved, and the auction was halted by Liveauctioneers. Ultimately, there was a happy ending as the art ended up at the Japanese American National Museum. The acquisition of the collection was announced at a dinner honoring George Takei (Sulu and often a comic convention guest over the years) who had himself been interned during WWII. He commented at the time: “We’re very happy that rather than disappearing in some private collection we can share this with the audience and learn from the artifacts and artwork and get a better understanding of that grievous chapter in American history. It’s not just a Japanese America story. It’s a story about American democracy." One of the prominent activists to play a role in stopping that auction was Nancy Ukai who now helms up two projects - a facebook page "Japanese American History: Not For Sale" and, relevant to comic collectors, the 50objects.org project. As has been discussed on this site, 50objects.org was looking at the Okajima comics as one of the "50 objects" for their project. Jpepx78 has written on comic books and the internment and I recommend this thread: https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/profile/8190-jpepx78/ Fast forward to today. eBay has, for the first time, bowed to pressure brought by Nancy Ukai and others to halt the sale of art created during the internment on its site. The art in question was 20 b&w drawings thought to have been created in Manzanar. You can read about that controversy here: https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/04/11/ebay-removes-listing-art-created-california-japanese-concentration-camp/ Key quotes in that articles that cause me some concern:

They were both going for newstand available comics. There ain't no way anyone is going to get all the giveaways, let alone the foreign editions.

Soft drink heiress? The one who beat out Ian for the complete DC collection?

Look, if the only difference between a Universal 8.5 and a Conserved 8.5 is that the staples were replaced (or removed, cleaned, and re-attached), the discount is going to end up being very very low. That's the entire reason that CGC added the "conserved" option. It's intent is to aid the aid the maturation of the comic market to understand that certain "work" done on comics is NOT stigmatizing. I have complete faith that the market will soon understand this. CGC/CCS are are clearly on a mission to accomplish this goal. I believe that the three most likely things to happen on the "restoration vs. conservations vs. Universal" front are the following, probably in this Order: (1) The market will realize that staple cleaning or replacement is a necessary conservation that will not impact pricing; (2) The market will realize that color touch is a defect which can be accounted for within a "Universal" grade; whereas removal of color touch is a form of vandalism that also can be accounted for with a lesser "Universal" grade; (3) Ultimately, Mitch is right, and there will be a Universal grading scale which factors in all defects, even if they are defects like color touch and pieces being added, just as if they were tape and rips and color loss type defects which are now factored in. Why? Because it makes sense and because CGC/CCS will make money off the evolution of perceptions they have begun.

If the current owner of the new record Action 1 replaced the staples with period appropriate staples, there would be folks lining up to buy it at a $1M discount. Why? Because we all know that the staples are not part of the value of the book. They are the only separate and replaceable part of a comic. My guess is that CGC will change their views as soon as CCS stocks up on enough vintage staples to meet demand. Why? Because there are a lot of comics out there with staples suffering from oxidation.

The art market is also much much much more tolerant of conservation of pieces that are NOT "one-of-a-kind," such as woodblock prints - one of my other collecting interests. In fact, the woodblock prints I collect are very analogous to Action 1 as they were printed in 1930 and there are less than 100 copies of each of the 35 different images (think issue numbers) in the set (think title) in existence. No one is going to suggest that it is better to leave a progressive damaging condition (such as mold) untreated when the treatment can improve the lifetime (and appearance) of the print. The print will be worth less untreated than treated.

Lots of big books purchased dirt cheap (by today's standard) lie buried in the collections of guys who got their start in the 60s and 70s. Remember Bangzoom! This 8.5 has changed hands three times in the past 11 years and accounts for 3 of the 9 (33%) transactions that have topped $1M and 3 of the 6 (50%) of the transactions which have topped $1.5M. Is that a sign of strength? Not sure. I do know that the serious comic collector who paid $1.5M for it in 2010 died, leading to the $2M+ auction in 2018. I just hope this is not a redux of JP The Mint.

I agree a strong case can be made the buyer paid too much.

What has a greater upside: (1) an untouched book with oxidizing staples or (2) a book that has been "restored" or conserved by a staple cleaning or replacement? For me, the answer is obvious. And the market is going to find it obvious as well. In the near future, staple replacement will be a cash cow for CGC and carry no stigma.