sfcityduck

I've got several boxes of remaindered books with the titles carefully ripped off the front cover. Why? Because my grandfather was the manager of the Woolworth's and brought home remaindered comics for my dad. There were also a fair number of coverless books. When I first took possession of them in the late 70s, it was not easy to discover what issue the coverless comics were. Don't worry, though, my dad had plenty of un-remaindered comics as well.

Bad news: The present GA market in Berkeley (El Cerrito is just a few miles North - 1 or 2 Bart station ride) is not anywhere near as robust as it was in the glory days. Possibly good news: There's a Berkeley comic show on April 7, if that's when you are visiting. That same day, there is also an Alameda Antique Fair / flea market. Good news: There are comic/cartoon history museums in the area: * Cartoon Art Museum (SF) https://www.cartoonart.org/events-exhibitions/#upcoming-exhibitions * Walt Disney Family Museum (SF - really cool!) https://www.waltdisney.org/ * Charles Schulz Museum (Santa Rosa - bit of a hike) https://schulzmuseum.org/

I'm not sure I understand the question. Let's put it this way: FF 1, AF 15, IH 1, TOS 39, JIM 83, Avengers 1, and X-Men 1, all featured the first internal and cover appearances of iconic characters or groups who would carry the SA. All of these issues started their lengthy headlining series. In contrast, IH 181 features the first cover appearance and second internal appearance of a character who played the villain role in that appearance, and who would not be seen again for another seven months, and when he did reappear was just one member of an ensemble cast. In that sense, IH 181 has more similarities to Avengers 4 (not first appearance), FF 3 (not first appearance), and TTA 35 (not first appearance), with 180 being more like TTA 27 (first appearance, but not really) or Strange Tales 180 (not on cover). Of course, undercutting the Avengers 4, TTA 35, and Strange Tales 110 comparison, Wolverine did not get his own solo series until after the Bronze Age was over. Unlike Captain America and the Submariner, Wolverine essentially had no existence independent of being a member of the X-Men team throughout the Bronze Age. So I don't think you can really make the comparison you're trying to make to the big key SA books. They are apples and oranges. You can, however, compare the popularity of the characters, and maybe that is all that matters.

Someone got a cool beat up early early GA DC rack at Hake's yesterday: And someone also picked up a nice looking wood Dell rack. I almost bid, but I've got the same model wood rack for Gold Key and a metal GA rack.

Back in the old days, the common characteristic was the kinship gained as a result of a shared passion for characters, stories, and artists. Some of the most serious collectors did not let others know what "trophy books" they had or what was on their want list. You still see that with some of the old school guys with the best collections around. There was a lot less boasting back then, but everyone bonded over discussions of characters, stories and characters. Sadly, I think the comic collecting community wanted to see prices rise to gain legitimacy for the hobby, and there was both serious market making and shenanigans engaged in to make sure that happened, but the end result was "too much of a good thing."

Hard to divorce the two, given that comics are a tangible paper medium and if kids aren't going to shops they aren't being exposed to a wide range of comics (or experiencing the delight of buying a new no. 1 they did not expect). It takes a lot more effort to learn what's out there by looking on-line than it does from glancing at shelves. Plus, folks who are that on-line oriented are more likely to choose "digital comics" and resist being weighed down with tangible comics that require space and preservation. So, yeah, I see shop closing as a bad sign for the state of collecting. Just like I see an emphasis on collecting "keys" as a bad sign for the state of collecting. They both indicate that the focus has shifted from a passion for stories and characters, which drive collectors to seek broad arrays of comics, to a passion to own something that will appreciate in value, which drives collectors to pursue "hot" issues (and risks that they end up holding the "hot potatoe"). Personally, I think that the fact that the overall comic collecting demographic is getting older is already reflected in the stagnant or declining market in a wide array of formerly desirable GA comics. People seem to think that the health of a collectibles market should be evaluated by the increasing prices of "big ticket items." That actually is the opposite of the reality.

You meant to say - Micronauts became worse than Rom. I dumped Micronauts and Rom in the 20s, probably only having started the series because they were new no. 1s. They were undoubtedly trail blazers in the Bronze/Copper little kid toys inspired comic genre, but aside from the Golden run on Micronauts, they didn't hold up well when compared to other comics coming out in that time period. At least for me. I was a young teen when Rom and Micronauts came out, and was far more interested in the Miller DD, Byrne X-Men, Perez Avengers and JLA and NTT, the Cerebus High Society period, etc., It was an exciting time for comics.

Good analysis. However, one impression conveyed by many of the threads on this board are that there is a large segment of comic collectors who collect only "for value purposes."

Does this "new class of comic 101" collectors really exist? Another local store just closed in SF. Most comic stores I walk into are more book shops than back issue shops. And I read many posts about folks "stocking up" on hot issues like IH 181. So is the market for this book at starting prices of what? $1,500 in 3.0? really made up of the "new class of comic 101" collectors, or is it longer term collectors/speculators? I ask this question seriously, because I just do not know. Dealers on this site should know and I'm curious what they have to say. When it came out, even though I bought it, I though that Rom #1 was a crappy book. With the exception of a few Golden covers, the art and story for that series are terrible. It's a pale shadow of Micronauts in the little kid toy inspired comic genre. Get off of my lawn and turn down your music.

Dave had an advantage. Whereas many kids his age probably never gave any thought to how comics were made or the notion that an artist could give you (or sell you) their original art, Dave was gifted original art by artists in thanks for his Saturday Review article. Basically, he was gifted with the knowledge of and opportunity to acquire original art. That creators reached out to him, apparently gave him the great idea of reaching out to creators. And in some cases asking creators for art. As soon as he started developing contacts with creators and publishers, he had a window to areas of information and opportunity that few others of that time period had. Which is why when the early 1960s role around, Dave can respond to Richard Kyle's inquiry regarding Fox Comics with a level of knowledge that is astonishingly impressive and includes details of the DC v. Fox lawsuit, etc. Dave got that information from someone who was working with Fox at the time. It is remarkable. It is modern. The only similar story I can think of is the relationship Jerry Bails developed with Gardner Fox.

I can't help but think that Hulk 181 is now the beany baby of comic collecting, and the high prices are being paid by speculators. I paid $5 for my Hulk 181. I have no desire to sell (and by extension CGC) because it is part of the New X-Men collection I put together in the late 70s and 80s. I'm not an unusual demographic in today's collecting community, and when my demographic begins to sell our collections as we near retirement, it will impact the X-Men market profoundly. I would not be seeking out that book today, as there are many cooler and much much much rarer books for the price.

His mother was from Mississippi and that's where the family cemetery plot is. It is sad Dave died so young, but he achieved remarkable prominence in two different areas of collecting. He's still held in awe by Jolson record collectors who invoke his name, his opinions, and his book in their debates. And he is still remembered by comic collectors for his actions in 1948, and now I hope folks will also appreciate him for more than just his Saturday Review response to Wertham. As for his collection, he's just another name on a long list of collectors whose impressive collections were sold off and dispersed. There's famous names on that list, including folks mentioned on this site like Rick D., Biljo White, etc. Yeah, that's sort of depressing, but the bright side is that even though you'll never know, you might already own a comic that once sat in Wigransky's collection. And there are some lucky collectors out there who own original art inscribed to Dave. He's gone, but not forgotten.

Sorry for the delays folks, but I had a work issue that needed to be dealt with. One last post for tonight - I'm going to give you the short version. Several folks in the Jolson record collecting community have talked of vising with Dave in the early 1960s while Dave was still living with his mother. But by 1966, Dave appears to have taken up residence at the Hotel Alexander in Berkeley. Why? Totally unknown. Maybe he was looking for the counter-culture. He probably was. In fact, he took out a personal ad in the Berkeley Barb, but this one wasn't comic or record related: Dave's line must have worked. Or failure did not daunt him. One of the themes of Dave's life if you can learn a lot about him through the classified ads he took out. A year later, in 1967, he was taking similar ads out in the NY East Village Other, and he was back in D.C. at a new address. He was visited by a Jolson collector in 1967, who says that Dave traveled to visit him in NY about a month later. So Dave had friends, had money and time to do some traveling still, and there's almost no information from anyone about comic collecting in the later 1960s. A Jolson collector who visited Dave in 1967, after he'd changed addresses, didn't mention his mother or his comics. I'm tracking that guy down to get more info. Dave stayed at the same D.C. address until he died in 1969. As for his comics? Well, it seems pretty clear that they were sold off. What I don't know is if it occurred before or after Dave died. I think I can find the answer from some folks who visited both him at his mothers and him in the late 60s. What I do know is that his mother moved out of D.C. in 1970. Tellingly, original art work inscribed to Dave was bequeathed to the Library of Congress as early as 1974. That art was donated by Caroline and Erwin Swann. They were behind the Swann Foundation for Caricature and Cartoon which donated a lot of art to the LOC. I really don't think Dave's mother would have sold art inscribed to her son, within a few years of his death, unless she was liquidating all of his collection. I don't think Dave would have sold art that was inscribed to him, unless he really wanted money for another purpose - living life or buying records. And I'd imagine he'd sell that art last. So right now my operating assumption is that the Wigransky collection is a lost pedigree, dispersed in the later 60s or early 70s. Either sold as a lot in 1970 to someone who was also dealing original art or pieced out by Dave himself. But, that's only a working assumption. There is a longer version of this story with more detail and more speculation. But, that will have to be for another time. Curiosity keeps me digging. If I find more, I'll let you all know. Not the answer a lot of you wanted to hear, not what I wanted to find. But, the story of Dave Wigransky is fascinating nonetheless.

Sometimes to move forward you have to go back. So we've talked about the Beer Dave years in the later 1950s when Dave was hanging out with the Rescue Squad guys. I think its worth noting that Knowles had a deep appreciation of Dave. He mentions on several occasions that Dave was a dependable guy, extremely intelligent and that when Dave talked, people listened to his wisdom. Knowles even says "What a fine administrator he would have made, perhaps a US president." But, Dave did not want to be a US President. His ambition at age 14 was to be a comic book artist. His mother's obituary refers to him as an artist. He tried to be a singer. Over on the Jolson boards they note that Dave "billed himself as 'the last of the minstrels' due to the fact that he briefly became the youngest member of the one remaining authentic minstrel troupe touring the nation in the 1950's." And, of course, he put out his novelty 45 "Me For President" in 1956 and 1960. The flip side of the 1960 picture sleeve shows a different side of Dave from the "Brando" outfit I posted up thread: Dave looks happy and fun, and you can get a sense of why people liked him, despite what was described by his friends as a somewhat difficult personality. But, Dave's 45 is terrible. Although Cash Box mentioned "Jerry Ferber's campaigning all over town with Dave Jay's Big Time deck 'Me for President'," reviews for the record were bad. I give him credit for tenacity in releasing it in both 1956 and 1960. The singer gig probably did not work out well for Dave. In 1962, "Dave Jay" was advertising himself as a DJ. A classified taken out in Billboard states: His boast to have records by all the "vaude era" singers was probably not an idle boast. Folks on the Jolson boards state that back in the 1960s his "Jolson collection at the time was among the biggest on the planet." Dave seems to have gotten some traction with his DJ show for a while, but with the dawn of rock and roll, it clearly was not going to be a long term gig pushing the "vaude era."

I'll be getting to that after my work day, this evening West Coast time.

Yep! Never thought I'd get marked down for laughing at a funny post in this thread.

Worth noting, Bangzoom wasn't the guy who fished those comics out of a garbage can. Instead, he got those comics the same way Dave sought back issues - by taking out classifieds in national publications. I think Bangzoom started doing that in the mid-60s. It obviously was a very successful strategy.

Based on Bangzoom's description of the neighborhood where his comics were discovered, very sure. It's just a different part of D.C. than that which Dave lived in.

Several of his friends have stated he died of a stroke or aneurysm. Knowles put it this way: "This was to be the last day that we ever saw Beer Dave because he died later; his brain exploded, his mother told me later."

Cat, unlike you, I've never met or spoken with Mitch (who I recall sold you a cool pulp cover). I envy you that opportunity. I did recently buy an item from Theo Holstein that I'm extremely grateful he agreed to sell to me (and it was a great transaction). It's hard for me separate Mitch and Theo when it comes to the whole "King of Comics" episode. But, I totally agree with your analysis of the impact of that. The history of comic collecting has a broad tapestry of "greats," and I'm fully aware that they include a lot of interesting characters. I feel very lucky that a fair number of them share their knowledge on these boards. Inspired by them, when I have a good story to tell, I go ahead and tell it. Hopefully, folks have learned something from the stories I've told in the past (such as about "The Nightingale" and the "The Four Immigrants" graphic novel) and this one here. I certainly enjoy it, Cat, when you share your comics (regardless of who encapsulated them) and stories.

As usual, I think the Cat-Man and I are really in agreement. I of course agree with him about the value of inclusion.

The really big lot that includes the best comics from Bangzoom's collection were purchased at Campbell Borthers, 8th & C Streets N.E., Washington D.C. Bangzoom once told this story about that collection: Bangzoom got the books because the owner's mother had tossed the collection in a garbage can and a neighbor rescued them. This was in the early 70s. Dave died in 1969. His mom cleaned out the house and moved out of D.C. in the early 1970s.