Prince Namor

Took my girlfriend to see it Sunday afternoon in Thailand. She loved it, knows nothing about the characters really. i thoroughly enjoyed it and know a great deal about the monsters. Maybe one of the better modern Godzilla movies. The fight scenes were great and filmed in a way I could actually follow them.

Got the news just now that Bob Beerbohm had passed away... I only got to know Bob on Facebook over the last couple of years, but man what an amazing reservoir of knowledge about this business... But it wasn't just that. I could message Bob anytime and run thoughts or questions or ideas by him and he always responded and gave his time freely. I'm going to miss his posts - he spoke his mind and didn't cater to the (censored) up, soulless, (censored) that make up most of this insipid business. He searched for the truth, regardless of the consequences, regardless of who got mad - collector OR creator - the truth was what was most important. For THAT I say, "RESPECT". RIP Bob...

I got to know Bob from Facebook and that guy gave his opinion and knowledge (based on decades of being a part of it) regardless of any and all who might get their feathers ruffled, collector or creator. What really happened was what was most important. For that I say, RESPECT. RIP Bob.

That and the 25 cent price change really kicked them in the butt on sales of the entire line. I know hindsight is 20/20, but here they had a rival publisher who had grown in sales slowly over the course of the last 10 years and the wya they approached it was to add reprints and nearly double the price on all their books? Maybe people forget what a bloodletting it was but: By Summer of 1973/Early 1974 Binky - cancelled after 26 years with #82 Falling in Love - cancelled after 18 years with #143 Girls Love (Love Stories) - cancelled after 16 years with #152 Metal Men - cancelled after 10 years with issue #44 Superman’s Girl Friend, Lois Lane - cancelled after 16 years with issue #137 Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen- cancelled after 20 years with issue #163 (well, it would become ’Superman Family’) Strange Adventures - cancelled after 24 years with issue #244 Teen Titans - cancelled after 9 years with issue #44 Green Lantern - cancelled after 13 years with issue #89 Sugar & Spike - cancelled after 17 years with issue #98 Swing With Scooter - cancelled after 7 years with issue #36 Tomahawk - cancelled after 23 years with issue #140 From Beyond the Unknown - cancelled with issue #25 Secrets of Sinister House - cancelled with issue #18 Forbidden Tales of Dark Mansion - cancelled with issue #15 DC 100-Page Super Spectacular - cancelled after 12 issues DC Special with issue #15 Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love after 15 issues Date with Debbi after 18 issues Secrets of Sinister House after 18 issues New Gods after 11 issues Forever People after 11 issues Mister Miracle after 18 issues Other books that managed to avoid the price increase, cheaply produced with REPRINT material, but STILL got cancelled: Legion of SuperHeroes - cancelled with issue #4 Secret Origins - cancelled with issue #7 Wanted, the World's Most Dangerous Villains - cancelled with issue #9 with NEW material… Sword & Sorcery - cancelled with issue #5 Prez - cancelled with issue #4

And in particular:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1973 Mister Miracle #18 - Letters Page

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1973 Mister Miracle #18 (with ADs) - Written, Drawn and Edited by Jack Kirby (lettered and inked by Mike Royer) Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Mike Royer) Part TWO:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1973 Mister Miracle #18 (with ADs) - The Final Issue... Written, Drawn and Edited by Jack Kirby (lettered and inked by Mike Royer) Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Mike Royer) Part ONE:

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964 Strange Tales #125 - Lee, Ditko, Bell, and Simek Ditko's Dr. Strange is also a battle issue without much added to the mythos (it would pick up steam once Ditko took it over completely). The benefit here is how he uses his artwork creatively to tell what is essentially a pretty standard story.

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964 Strange Tales #125 - Lee, Ayers, Reinman, and Rosen Can this team do better using just classic FF characters? The story has some glaring holes (how is Ben breathing underwater??), but the ending surprise as to the why of it all is actually pretty good. Not a bad story here!

I'm aware of the whole 'gorillas on the cover make sales go up' thing at DC Comics, but if Marvel is so much better than DC, why would Stan be imitating those ideas?

In Ditko's early 2000 essay's he wrote of how Stan asked him to do the Hulk for TTA. He wrote that he came up with Major Talbot, the reason for the change being 'anger', the Leader, etc.

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964 Tales to Astonish #60 - Lee, Ditko, Bell, and Rosen Lucky for Stan, he had Ditko to rework the Hulk and give us a fairly plain but readable story.

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1964 Tales to Astonish #60 - Lee, Ayers, Reinman, and Simek One of my favorite unintentionally funny Ant-Man stories. This is NOT advanced writing aimed at a college crowd. The Ray that gives Gorillas the Intelligence of Humans still makes me laugh out loud when I read it.

But... Most people with reasonable grading experience can tell the difference between a properly graded and a horribly misguided...er, misgraded...book. Very, very, very, very few people...including the very professional "authenticators" who have made it a CAREER to examine signatures...can say "this is a genuine, without question, signature." I don't need to be a professional grader to tell the difference between a 9.8 and a 7.0. My MOM can tell the difference between a 9.8 and 7.0, and she has nothing to do with comics. She hates them. But I could spend 50 years "authenticating signatures" and STILL not be sure.

Looks like Roz Kirby's handwriting to me.

Exactly. Which is why my post isn't 'rhetorically argumentative', but a pretty straightforward question. Because... if they can't "authenticate" Jack Kirby sigs... how does that not apply to every other signature applied without a chain of custody witness...? It may be their 'opinion' that they can't authenticate them... but it's based on the whole principle of authentication in the first place.

And I'm saying if they can't tell if a Kirby signature is legit or not, then they don't truly know what they're doing. I can guarantee you there are much better signature fakers out there than Roz Kirby. Not if they won't accept certain items in the first place. Which they would never do with Stan's signature because the monetary gain from ACCEPTING them is greater than nearly anyone else's. Which means the incentive for forger's to get involved (because it's Lee) or to HAVE PREVIOUSLY gotten involved (because it's Stan) increases it's chance of forgery x times more than anyone elses. Which makes the Kirby UNacceptance a complete load of rubbish.

If they can't "authenticate" Jack Kirby sigs...and I AGREE that they can't...how does that not apply to every other signature applied without a chain of custody witness...? There are a number of people who say Keya Morgan forged Stan Lee's name to memorabilia, I highly doubt they're going to even question that, as the pay off is far too high to pass up - even if the possibility of future forgery is even greater.

Some great info here... It's interesting to hear the DC side of things, as I'm not as familiar with the story there. I will say though that, to be fair... the Justice League put most of those characters together in December of 1959 and World's Finest had Batman and Superman (with Robin) together for years before that. Even teaming up characters at Marvel wasn't a Stan thing... it happened quite a bit in the Timely days... But the Silver Age Marvel's certainly ramped it up. I THINK... By the end of 1963, Marvel had: The Hulk in FF #12 Ant-Man in FF #16 Sgt Fury in FF #21 The FF in ASM #1 The Angel in TOS #48 Nothing in TTA for Ant-Man yet and the Avengers bi-monthly to start and Spidey with a guest appearance in Strange Tales... that's EIGHT team-up/crossover books... At DC over just that same time period, you had... Green Arrow and Martian Manhunter in Brave and the Bold #50 Aquaman and Hawkman in Brave and the Bold #51 Batman and Robin + the Legion of Super Heroes in Superman's story in Action Comics #309 Supergirl regularly appeared with Supes in those Action story, but I won't count that as she was a part of the Superman 'Family'... Hawkman in the Atom #7 Green Lantern in Flash #131 Justice League of America featuring most of the main Superheroes 8 times a year Adam Strange in JLA #24 Crisis on Earth-Two in JLA #21-22 featuring...a whole BUNCH of guest stars... is this not the very definition of an INTERWOVEN storyline? (Speedy makes an appearance in JLS #12...) World's Finest teaming up Batman and Superman every month Flash in Green Lantern #13 Flash in Green Lantern #20 That's more than EIGHT for sure... In Fact... Even when Marvel ramped it up in the first 3 months of 1964 with Captain America in Avengers #4 Hulk in FF #25-26 Avengers in FF #26 Ice Man in ST #120 Hulk in ASM #14 X-Men in FF #28 Spidey in TTA #57 ... DC still had Green Lantern in Flash #143 Atom and Flash in Brave and the Bold #53 Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin in Brave and the Bold #54 Metal Men and the Atom in Brave and the Bold #55 Martian Manhunter and Flash in Brave and the Bold #56 JSA in JLA #29-30 So it's not like DC wasn't teaming up and crossing over... it looks as though they did just as much as Marvel... Well... again to be fair, Stan wasn't writing those stories and many times gave us NO preview of what was coming next, because he didn't know. In the early 60's, what issues was he dangling next issue's villain? I know he hints at a return hero in FF #3 (Subby, who's actually a villain), and mentions the Impossible Man by name in FF #10... but most of his blurbs at the end of those books in the first three years are very generic. And as seen above... DC was doing continued storylines in JLA, especially with the JSA stuff. I realize there was a difference with the way Marvel did it, especially in the Kirby stories in FF and the Avengers, but as those who've been following this thread as we've gone through those issues month by month... it doens't show up in books that Kirby doesn't work on... it's pretty easy to see that was Jack's doing, not Stan's. To be fair, Metal Men sold 396,506 copies per month in 1966 to Amazing Spider-man's 340,155. And that was Marvel's best title. I never understood that checkerboard backing on some of the logo's though... I wasn't old enough to experience that one (1961-68), but it's brother mag CARtoons ran from 1959 to 1981! People underestimate how popular these were... It did double the Paid circulation, making it one of the best selling books of the 60's... but... It fell off that plateau pretty far, going from a high of 898,000 copies a month in 1966 to 293,000 in 1970. DC didn't do too badly overall until that price change to 25 cents in 1972 though. THat killed them more than anything...

I remember a couple of years ago (hell, I'm at that age it could've been a decade ago) there was a debate about how many copies of Amazing Fantasy #15 are actually out there... and some younger guy was using the Census as a way of estimating. The older collectors really took him to task for it because... well because it doesn't make SENSE. Slab Collectors make up a SMALL fraction of the collecting community, and ESPECIALLY among many OLD collectors who see it as... gross. There are FAR more old time collectors who see the idea of slabbing their books as a NON-IDEA than there are ones who do it to buy, sell and trade. And because of that we have no way of knowing how many AF #15's are out there based upon SLABBING. For the couple of years I was in Terre Haute, Indiana, running my small comic book shop, I easily got in more people selling Silver Age DC's than I did Silver Age Marvel's, much to my dismay. Because I could always sell Marvel's, especially at shows. But I sold more NEW DC Comics than I did Marvel. I guess it was just the way that town was. I had my Marvel fans, but I just had more people there into DC than I did Marvel. Despite that, never once did I think to myself, based upon that small slice of the world, that because of what I saw there, DC MUST be BIGGER than Marvel. The three blind men and the elephant story and all that. Anecdotal evidence and Census reports are not enough. Not even close. Nothing anyone has said here has convinced me of anything. IF anything, I look at what happened in comics for the next 30 years and think, "Really? Marvel?" Superman had 4 big budget live action movies made. Batman had 4 big budget live action movies made (and would get a REBOOT of movies made just as Marvel was finally getting going). (In fact, the self-proclaimed genius Stan Lee spent decades getting NOTHING done in Hollywood - and only after he stepped aside did Marvel become a success there). The most popular animated series of that time period ended up being Batman the Animated Series. Mego toys? They made just as many DC Characters as they did Marvel. (And DC's Kenner Super Powers were on the market before Marvel and Toy Biz). The best WRITTEN (curse those publisher for making comics, maybe not JUST as collectibles, but actually with good stories) comics of the 80's and 90's primarily came from DC Comics, who went out and not only got writers like Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Neil Gaiman (and Vertigo Comics!), but gave former Marvel stars like Frank Miller the creative freedom to do the best selling book of the 80's. Three of the biggest selling reprint collections of the 80's are DC - Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Sandman. Marvel's Secret Wars was 'get in - get out - sell as much as possible - who cares if it makes sense?' People seek those issues out because they've been TOLD they're collectible but... I'd take those three DC titles over that garbage any day. It's weird that people mistake Stan's 'writing' as a positive. The artists wrote the stories. Stan's dialogue was what Marvel fans seem to cling to and his ability to talk to the fans. Lonely fan boys who squealed with delight because someone at the Marvel Comics was nice to them and didn't treat them like a pest. Smart idea. But it has nothing to do with creativity. What Stan REALLY taught Marvel Comics was that it's NOT about the story or the artist or even if it all makes sense... it's about getting people to buy it no matter what. Secret Wars, YES! Frank Miller? Let him go to DC. I guess I never was interested in being brainwashed. I just wanted good comics.

What were the interwoven storylines? When I think of all of the people who complain about the summer crossover annuals back in the day, and the variant covers that 'make' you buy more copies, and the 16 part Carnage Saga storylines, and.... and they DO complain about it... I always think, 'You have Stan Lee to thank for that." Commerce > Art = Marvel Comics I think this gets confused. Stan built an army of zombies and he did so cleverly by a) hiring a fanzine boy to be his right hand who could help him rewrite history (and pick up his dry cleaning), b) constantly telling fans that they were smart to buy Marvel Comics instead of brand x and making them feel special (glad handing), and c) rewriting history to make himself the greatest creator of all time (despite not actually writing or creating anything). Those FANS, still to this day, want those books. And thus, the dealers make sure they have more of them in stock. That doesn't prove there are more of them that EXIST. Not by a long shot. That's just SILLY. No one has any way of knowing.

DC had a Universe. All of those characters interacted in each other's books. If anything, the continuity at Marvel didn't really get organized until Jim Shooter took over. As an example: Galactus' 3 part storyline - sending the entirety of NY and the world into panic somehow was completely missed by everyone else's storyline. Agreed. Stan talked to the fans in way that hadn't been seen since the days of EC Comics. Kirby had been doing that as far back as Boy Commandos and as late as Challengers of the Unknown. Stanley certainly amplified it though and brought his smarty pants dialogue from the 'dumb blonde' books he'd spent a decade dialoguing. I remember how big of a deal it was when Batman punched Guy Gardner in Justice League #5 in 1987!!! (It took DC 26 years to catch up with that childish behavior...) It's all subjective of course, but as far as attractive women... I say John Romita tops them all! According to some, that's how the staff at DC Comics saw it too. And in much the same way as parents scratched their heads at the fuzzy guitar sound of Rock n Roll or harsh language of Lenny Bruce, the raw power of that artwork somehow caught on...

To suggest, in any substantial way, that census numbers have anything whatsoever to do with how many copies of a comic were printed in 1964 or 1970 or 1985 is... at the least, misguided and something that a long time forum member would only do when it is related to 'Stan says so'. One has ZERO to do with the other. They didn't print more copies of Superman #233 than they did of #234, so that fans someday would have more copies to slab of it. There's 2376 copies on census of #233 and only 152 of #234. And incidentally, #233's number of slabbed copies is GREATER than any ASM printed around the same time - between #83 and #99, including the 'drug issues' (1338, 2148, and 2003), and almost triple most of the non-key ASM's of the time. Is there more Superman #233's in dealer stock at shows than those ASM issues? No. Because the demand is greater for the ASM's, these days. Which goes to show again, that none of this has to do with how many copies of any of these books was printed in 1970. No matter what Stan Lee said. Your proof isn't proof, no matter how much you want it to be. It's just not.

I'm not sure what anyone's background here is, but a scientist would look at this differently. A scientist would pursue hard data, and ignore speculation, hyperbole, and guessing. And certainly any kind of anecdotal data. The census has only a WHISPER, a SHADOW of relation to how many books were printed, much less went on sale, much less returned, much less survived, much less submitted 40, 50, 60 years later. To suggest, in any substantial way, that census numbers have anything whatsoever to do with how many copies of a comic were printed in 1964 or 1970 or 1985 is... at the least, irresponsible and something that a long time forum member would only do when it related to 'Stan says so'. In any other debate, the idea would be seen as ludicrous to anyone who has been a part of this hobby for 20+ years.