gunsmokin

On 3/5/2024 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

That is an interesting premise! 

I'm trying to think of an example of any single creator at DC in the 1940s or 1950s being employed and credited as a full cartoonist (responsible for creating all the words + pictures). I'm drawing a blank.  So I imagine Schwartz wouldn't really know what to do with a Kirby in 1961.  I believe Schwartz would have been of the mindset that you need to have a full script approved by editorial before the artist starts drawing, otherwise how can editorial be sure the artist isn't drawing something the company would not buy and will not publish?   On the other hand, Schwartz was a savvy guy, and looking around at the shoestring operation that was Timely Comics circa 1960, he might also have made a virtue of necessity and just let Kirby & Ditko do their thing.  

Stan Lee would have probably been fine at DC in 1960, being able to draw upon their much deeper bench of comics scripters.  Whether he would have been sufficiently motivated to work with the likes of Bob Haney or Gardner Fox to make their dialogue sound more like how young people actually were speaking in the 1960s is an open question.  I could see him doing that to try to make his books stand out from the crowd, and to establish his own identity within the DC editorial ranks.  But I could also see Stan or his bosses take the opinion that extensively re-writing that amount of dialogue was more than was expected by someone being paid only as an editor.  

 

 

I would have been intrigued to see how Stan and Carmine squared off/worked together.

I think a more intriguing "what if" might be what the product would have looked like if Lee and Schwartz had switched places in 1960. Granted Schwartz was an editor but how would he have handled the writing/art assignments?

On 1/24/2024 at 7:41 PM, DR.X said:

Fantastic Four #41 - CGC - 9.0            White Pages

BP = $200.00

This book I purchased off Bedrock many years ago, at one of the Wizard Chicago shows. Been in a box ever since, but where else would it be. 

•  

Take

On 3/1/2024 at 5:01 PM, rjpb said:

MEN'S ADVENTURES #22
4.5 ow-w
Classic Bill Everett cover.
Cover cut clips very bottom of indicia (see pic), but I don't believe this is trimmed as it is the same dimensions as other copies and the right edge is clearly untrimmed despite roughness.

$400

 

 

Take

What a loss. My condolences to all of you that knew him well. I used to buy many books from Ed in his pre-HA. 

On 2/22/2024 at 8:42 PM, Prince Namor said:

Lee didn't show any signs of fleshing out characters outside of what Kirby and Ditko gave him. His contribution was to dumb down stories for the slow reader, and use his Millie the Model wise guy dialogue. 

The most boring, most cliched, repeated stories of the Silver Age were the Daredevil and Iron Man comics, two characters that Kirby and Ditko had the least to do with after they were launched. And they just stewed in mediocrity for most of the first 15 years they existed. 

And after the Sentinels story ark, same with the X-men 

we could beat each other's brains in over each others opinions. Everyone is pretty set in their ways. Kirby created the art and plotted pretty much everything initially. Lee fleshed out the characters personalities. Lee had a very competent artist in Maneely that he could have done this with if they were truly Lee's characters. Their most popular output was Ms. Lyon's cubs.

On 2/22/2024 at 10:26 AM, shadroch said:

As usual for this guy, a lot of words that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. 

The claim was that Stan claimed ownership and sole creator status in the fireside book era, not what he felt he was entitled to after multiple contracts were signed two decades later.  Lee and his people thought the contracts signed in the 1990s gave him an ownership stake.

I've done you the courtesy of ignoring your version of "facts".  I'd appreciate you doing the same.  You have at least two threads to spread your opinions.  Why not leave it at that?

that came off a lot like, "hey kid, get off my lawn". It sounds like what you are saying is that those multiple contracts gave Lee the idea that he did indeed own the characters. The ownership of the characters seems like a central theme to start up of Stan Lee media I would think. Sounds like a claim of ownership to me at least. Lee filed a lawsuit against Marvel over ownership, what more proof do you need that he felt like he owned the characters. Proof of the legalities seems pretty easy to track down. Is Barron's no longer to be trusted in the Lee camp?

On 2/22/2024 at 9:08 AM, shadroch said:

Did he claim to own Thor? 

I don't recall. I was watching it on USA network or maybe disney and it was kind of a 2 minute snippet. Probably out there on youtube somewhere.

On 2/22/2024 at 8:59 AM, shadroch said:

I haven't wasted my time with chuckles in months.  I don't argue with people who hate.

You stated something. I asked where, and you gave a vague answer.  It's in the introduction.  I looked and didn't see it.  I'm hoping you'll clarify where Stan claimed ownership of Marvel characters in 1974-1977, the era of Fireside books.  

I know his writings in those books are hype and not very accurate. He talks of creating Thor long after Spider-Man, even though they came out the same week, but I don't recall him ever claiming he owned them. You seem to think he did, but don't want to show where. 

going to be a bit busy for the next few days but by Monday or Tuesday, I'll see what I can dig up. I know I have Son of Origins but not sure if I have the first book. I do recall seeing a brief documentary tied into the first Thor movie where Lee is on camera explaining how he came up with the name of Thor which was rather hilarious. He lists a few Greek gods and then pops up with Thor out of the blue.

On 2/22/2024 at 8:49 AM, shadroch said:

You stated he claimed ownership and sole creator credit.  Where?

I'll see if I can dig out one of the Origin fireside books. Feels like you already have your answer, so wondering why I should look up mine for you? You've been arguing to the contrary with Chuck and whoever else will listen for quite some time.

On 2/22/2024 at 8:43 AM, gunsmokin said:

In the introduction. 

the primary argument seems to be that Stan gave them the personality that made the characters so popular so therefore he created the characters. Kirby and Ditko created the visual and the origins and it seems that you think that is all they are entitled to but at a minimum, they were all plotted by Kirby and Ditko. They were paid as artists only while Lee got editor and writer pay which was grossly unfair.

On 2/22/2024 at 8:07 AM, shadroch said:

Where does Stan claim ownership in the Fireside series? Where does he claim he created these characters all by himself?

In the introduction. 

On 2/21/2024 at 8:17 PM, Unca Ben said:

Thanks!  I am familiar with Vassallo's blog.  but not the Kirby book (pamphlet?) pictured.  I will look it up.  Thanks again!

I’ll be the first to say that Michael Hill is a hardcore Kirby enthusiast and there is plenty of sarcasm involved but it does have somewhat of an academic feel to it. It is a rather thick paperback.

On 2/21/2024 at 8:05 PM, Unca Ben said:

Okay.  but I'd like to know which books you were referring to, since you think that I haven't read them.

I’d start with this one. The other was given to another boardie. Both written by Michael Hill. I’d also read Dr. Michael Vassolo’s blog regarding Timely/Atlas/Marvel. I’d consider Doc to be the preeminent expert and still some unbiased.

Our opinions on the matter are so different on the matter, it really seems pointless to argue about it with you. I’ll let Chuck carry the flag from here on out.

There are at least two very good books regarding Kirby’s side of the story that you should consider reading. You seem to believe only what the corporate employee had to say on the matter. 

On 2/21/2024 at 7:07 PM, frozentundraguy said:

It should also be pointed out that Stan was able to weave story lines into multiple books, which had the effect of not only making them more relevant to each other, but also increasing sales for those readers who wanted to follow the full story arc across multiple titles.

You didn’t answer my question. As far as weaving stories, he occasionally forgot characters actual first names. Characters he claimed he created. This whole argument really starts and ends with  Lee claiming sole ownership and creatorship or the characters in his fireside origin books. 

I don’t know who wrote the article and it doesn’t really matter as far as I’m concerned. Let me ask you this… did Stan deserve to be paid the full writers pay or should it have been shared with his plotters/artists?

On 2/21/2024 at 6:14 PM, Unca Ben said:

No.  While I do have an opinion since I read and collect Ditko's Charlton and Kirby's fourth world, I base my statements on readership, fan acclaim, cultural significance, longevity of the characters, influence on future comic book creators, etc.

For one example:  one thing Ditko's Blue Beetle and Captain Atom books didn't do was usher in "the Charlton Age of Comics".

Problem is that some of your assumptions are based on Lee’s claims of creatorship as well as plotting and writing. In Lee’s words from the beginning, Kirby and Ditko were the artists that drew Lee’s stories and that was utter nonsense.

On 2/21/2024 at 3:33 PM, Unca Ben said:

...and I wrote this praise for Stan without having to character-assassinate Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko!

Imagine!

Couldn’t really disagree with you more, especially in regards to your opinions on the 4th world. If Stan was such a gifted writer, then why hadn’t he succeeded previously while Simon and Kirby created the romance and war genre? If you were 8-12 years old, I’m sure you loved Stan’s “writing”. Kirby’s writing was for a slightly older audience. At best, Lee added a dialogue that worked for characters created by others. To each his own. The dialogue changed drastically over the first two years. The X-men in particular had rather childish dialogue. I’m biased because I came upon the silver age a little later in life. I’m 58 and by the time I started accumulating them, it was all about the art and not the stories. It still is.

thread is now closed. Will be sending out invoices over the next two days. might take me a few days to get things packaged up as we go. I'm out of town all weekend but will do my best to get things turned around as they pay out.

Thanks everyone!

On 2/20/2024 at 4:58 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Fantastic Four 114 9.0 $45

Really nice black cover on this one. Cash in on the movie hype! 

 

take