John E.

So many excellent posts overnight. Some brief comments:

 

JayOE: I think there will always be people who discover this great medium and hobby. The hobby will categorically NOT die with us. Though I don't frequent LCSs regularly these days (there are a lot fewer of them in my area than there used to be anyway), I don't doubt that there are young people there. I see a lot of college age and 20-somethings at Forbidden Planet in NYC (I pop in every month or two), the kinds of people you see hanging out at Felix's booth at the NYCC; don't really see a lot of kids younger than that, though.

 

But, it's all about what happens at the margin that will drive what happens to the OA hobby & market. There will always be new collectors, yes. But, the supply of art only goes up over time. And, to date, prices have mostly gone up as well. If the collector base (in terms of aggregate buying power, not just numbers) does not keep up, mathematically, the only way the market clears is by price adjustment. That's Econ 101. And how eager will people be to participate in a hobby which costs them money instead of being in a virtuous circle environment like its experienced to date?

Thanks for the response. That makes sense. Can I add that value of modern art isn't going skyrocket like vintage stuff not just because of the heavy supply, but it's relative ease to find and acquire the page you want? I feel like in 10 years if you wanted a page published in 2017, and you were aggressive about it, you can probably find it and at a comfortable price; whereas, the old stuff, you don't know if it still exists, so you're willing to pay a premium for it.

Also, I have no idea what is going on with that Manhattan Projects page! I read the first TPB, but it just wasn't for me (sorry, Felix). The page is somewhat interesting, but it's three shots of the same thing at various perspectives. Like you even said - you'd want the page before and after as well. Maybe then people would have a better idea of WTF is going on.

Ha! You make a good point about it being three shots of various perspectives, and yes, that moment is best consumed as a 3-page sequence (and it wouldn't surprise me if all three went to one owner), but I don't think you have to know what's going on in the story to tease out that two friends are going to lose their lives together. I felt even without the overall context of issue/story/arc, that it was a touching moment. But maybe I'm wrong.

Eric, you nicely sum up my view of art. Thanks for the post.

Just kidding around;)

 

 

Another person asked about less documented instances of readership via trades and libraries and such, yeah that occurs, but as I said before, there's a BIG difference between consumers and collectors. Casual consumers aren't likely to collect comic art. If they didn't collect the comics, didn't buy the trade paperback, read it online or while waiting for a movie to start at Barnes and Noble, they are not going to take the leap to looking online for that one special page, was seared into their brains, that made such an impression on them in the 30 seconds they glanced at it and turned the page or swiped their finger to the next page. Nostalgia requires familiarly, familiarity requires exposure and repetition. You guys are glossing over the fundamental psychology of collecting. It's one thing to be a fan or a consumer, another to be a collector. OA is the black tar heroin of collecting, but comics are the gateway drug, you skip that step, and its all Nancy Reagan "just say no" to Modern OA.

 

You make a strong and convincing point here. And if I may double-up and respond to Gene's point/response to me about "aggregate buying power" here's something I didn't consider: I assume that kids and young adults who are reading comics for "free" are doing because they don't have the cash, because, well, they are kids or students. But what if when they do make an income, and even if there's a little discretionary income there, who's to say that their habits of "you don't have to buy something to enjoy" won't follow them to adulthood? And if they aren't splurging on little things, then yeah, buying a $250 piece of art is probably out of the question.

That's a beautiful Aparo page. Yeah, in an ideal world all the lettering would be done directly on the board. Of course, I was just pointing out the downside of lettering through paste-ups, which can detract from the art if they show signs of aging. I own a page from Archie vs. Predator and I was surprised and pleased that the page was hand-lettered with the exception of one balloon. If Archie comics can do it, why can't everyone else?! But overall, wordless art doesn't bother me.

I don't agree (or disagree really, all eras have greats and drek) but I like you guys' passion and that there are people here to give the POV of the guy who digs the modern stuff

Yeah, honestly, I enjoy reading ALL perspectives and I think this thread is making me a better collector (although I do trust my taste).

Gene,

I think your demographics argument about Baby Boomers & Gen Xers propping up this hobby is very convincing and you've won me over with that. I'm either a young Gen-X or an old Millenial (I'm in a liminal space) and perhaps we are the last of the "Spinner Rack People" necessary to keep this hobby healthy. (Or perhaps not; se below). Maybe the hobby doesn't die with us, maybe it'll continue with a needed market correction, we'll see.

I think that your habit of reading lots and lots of modern stuff lends to your credibility. But I do wonder, sincerely, because you do read digitally, how often do you frequent comic shops? There are more comic shops in a short radius from my house than there are grocery stores. Even more shops if I cared to drive and extra 10 minutes. It's typical of me to visit 2-3 different shops a week; I visited as many this weekend.

Yes, more likely than not you will find white males ages 20-50 in there. Next, non-white males of that same age group. But this weekend alone I've seen: college-age women buying comics, a 12-year old boy buying comics, those identifying as LGBTQ buying comics, dads bringing their first graders to buy comics. I bought my 2-year old daughter a Harley Quinn comic because she wanted something with the Joker (I don't think my wife was pleased about that. In a classic Mom move, she threw away the comic--twice).

The reason I bring this up is because I don't think we're in a CHILDREN OF MEN situation where the last (potential) OA collector was born in 1985. I won't deny the numbers that say comic book orders are down. But as a dad who has to haul his kids to places where there are other kids (and as a dad who loves comics and goes to where the comics are), I can testify that these "comic sales are down" numbers don't account for kids or young adults who read trades for free at the library (the graphic novel section has really grown in my library in the last two years as someone else here attested to the same trend) and teens and young adults who pull trades from the shelves at Barnes and Noble and read them without paying for them. It's these observations that keep me optimistic.

I just believe that the "numbers" don't tell the entire story. Now, will these "shadow" readers become art collectors. Don't know. That's why I advocate sharing the joys of the hobby. They won't know that the hobby exists if someone won't show them that it exists.

But I am wondering--sincerely-- if you do frequent shops and cons and if you account what you see there into your analysis?

To think that the bulk of published newer art is not superior to the bulk of published older art is very much reliant on rose-colored nostalgia glasses. There are simply more great artists today than there were great artists of yesteryear. The industry is supporting more talent than ever.

 

Science. Bad.

 

Words. Good.

 

This beautiful page . And the one before it and after.

I've never read the issue so I don't know if there's dialogue on the page and I think most would agree that is speaks for itself without the need for speech bubbles. If there is dialogue, it better be on par with Pablo Neruda. If this was scripted by Stan Lee I'd barf on my Addidas. Paste-ups would ruin this page. Editorial notes on the margins would ruin this page. 1996, 1986, 1976 would ruin this page.

I'm picturing a modern page. Clean, perfect condition, no oil stains, no white out, no ugly margin notes. Obviously all modern art is better than all vintage art as a result. Thus endeth the lesson

24-year old collector receives his "vintage" art purchased off eBay in the mail: "Cool, word balloons. Wait. Why are are half of them peeling off? This one just fell off. Oh man, why are the panels all yellow? I wish the seller had written in the description that these paste-ups were falling off. So do I glue them back on? Is that allowed? Do I use Elmer's glue? Where do I buy rice paste? Do I hire a professional? How much would that cost? Where do I find a professional? Is this conservation or alternation? If I leave it as is, does it affect the value of my art? If I paste the balloons back on, does it affect the value of my art? Do I have to come clean about it or will the Boards tar and feather me if I don't? Oh. I knew I should have bought that wordless Manhattan Projects page."

To be clear, its not the fragmentation of interests that worry me, it's the reluctance to recruit new members to the OA hobby/market. (or am I wrong? Are we rushing and getting pledges?)

 

 

I just think people have to get there on their own. targeted recruitment if you want to call it that does little or nothing. if interesting things are shared and an excitement builds within that person organically, that's what you want. One cannot overestimate how resistant most people are to getting into something new (and some of the reasons for that are totally understandable). I mean... everyone here has done it to some extent going from comics to art, but those are close cousins and for most of us it took many years of appreciating the one before we even considered the other

And you're right. Of course, I didn't mean literal recruitment, I guess I meant more like expressing the our joy of the hobby to other collectible enthusiasts or comic book fans. For example, I frequent many cons and have made friends with people while waiting in line for artists. Those friends are often just comic readers. At some point it becomes clear that I'm an OA collector, and I talk about the hobby, etc. Then next thing I know these comic readers are paying for sketches and buying OA, although not at the rate that we do. So "recruiter" is not the best word choice, but rather a "booster."

2016 is only my third year collecting original art. Please take a look at my favorite pieces:

 

- Batman: Dark Knight III - Master Race #3 page 19 - Interior Page

 

- Dark Knight Batman and Robin by Joe Giella, at 88 years old - Sketch Cover

 

- DK3 Francine and Katchoo by Terry Moore - Sketch Cover

 

- Strangers in Paradise v3 #20 page 10 - Interior Page

 

- Superman by Greg Hildebrandt - Sketch Cover

 

 

My Best of 2016 Lowry Submissions

 

James

Really fun pieces that I missed on CAF! Thanks for sharing!

I agree with everything that is said here. But when it comes to the future of the hobby, I think prices and the health of the hobby are two different things. Like Gene says, and has argued many times before, no one can predict the future as where prices are going, plus, today's generations are not as wealthy as yesterday's. Although I'm more educated than my parents, I do not have the wealth that they do (and they don't have the wealth of more established Americans either ) But what the hobby has going for it is the "bug."

We all talk about "getting bit by the bug," this influenza that has us spending more than we should on a non-essential item. This bug isn't an isolated occurrence. That bug, I believe, is going to keep the hobby healthy.

If we want this hobby to survive, if we want the next generations to buy what we own, to appreciate what we own, we have to pass that bug on to them. I think we are a little hesitant because the more people that enter in the hobby (or, "the market") means more competition and higher prices. But why does this have to exclusively be a bad thing? I think one of the unintentional consequence to Felix's podcast experiment is spreading that bug. Not that I time it or anything, but usually the week before a podcast is released, I feel deflated about the hobby, its costs, and how I can't find the art I really want. Then Felix releases the podcast and that gets me going again. We need to spread that enthusiasm to keep the hobby going.

Like most of you, I collected comics as a kids. My only "investment" comics were those foil-hologram-3D-embossed-die-cut covers of the 90s (leave me alone! I was a kid then!). That crash left me pessimistic about collectibles. But then happened? CGC came along and -- love it or hate it-- revitalized the comic collecting hobby. Who would thunk we would've seen the kind of prices on comics that we do today?

Sure, the skyrocketing prices of OA makes it vulnerable to a crash, possibly leading to its sudden death, but there might be something that doesn't exist now that might give the hobby a push and keep interest and prices healthy.

As an aside, when we go to a comic shop, we see different tiers of books for sale -- the new releases, the back issues, and the wall books -- to be broad. A lot of it doesn't sale, and not all of it has to to keep the shop's doors open. Now imagine a comic book shop, only it's stocked with only OA. Maybe Anthony Snyder's warehouse is a prototype. At this OA shop you have the "wall" art and the "dollar bin" art. Just because no one is buying from the dollar bin, doesn't mean the shop folds.

To be clear, its not the fragmentation of interests that worry me, it's the reluctance to recruit new members to the OA hobby/market. (or am I wrong? Are we rushing and getting pledges?)

The way I look at this question is I trade my collection for one page of approximately equal total value. Id this so now I have one piece that is incredible and something I really love and that is it. So what do I do next? Start adding more pages to my collection with the one piece as my start.

This is what I would do, too -- just start again. Although I'd be so tapped, that I may not do so for years. Heck, on second thought, maybe I would just retire from the hobby.

I almost "sold it all" this summer for an Alex Ross pencil piece of the major DC characters that Anthony Synder posted this past summer. Apparently this was a finished pencil piece that Alex Ross used to paint the final image over a light box. Anthony sold it as from a calendar, but I knew it as a poster that was taped on my bedroom wall for years when I was a teenager during the height of my comics mania. That piece has so many check marks that I would have sold what I had to get it. Unfortunately, when that piece popped up I had just blown $1K on art so I didn't have anything left for a down payment. He posted the piece a day before his road trip to San Diego and I knew it wasn't going to last. He was selling it for a "mere" $2.5K. If it did survive San Diego Comic Con I was going to gun it. But sure enough, it was no longer available halfway through the week.

One other thing, it makes sense how veteran collectors decades into the hobby wouldn't trade it all for one piece. I never thought about it but at this point, these are carefully curated collections. For someone like me, only 4 years into the hobby in three month, with a "small" collection of about 50 published and carefully selected non-published pieces, it would be easier for me to let it all go because I can easily find examples of what I already have.

P.S. +1 on the Batman 497 cover!

Another wonderful podcast! Y'know, the Lee-Williams team is such a "household" name in the comic reading world that I was surprised to hear how much of a normal guy Scott Williams is! Scott, I really appreciate your take on collecting; I hung on every word!

Felix, I really enjoyed the latest interview.

 

I do have one criticism: there were a number of times Dave was speaking, and I wanted to hear what he had to say- but you cut him off to interject. And when he was trying to continue his thought, you would raise your voice to drown him out until he stopped talking. The podcast would be even more enjoyable allowing the guest to take center stage more.

 

Just my opinion. I do enjoy the show (and youtube videos).

 

Seconded. Only drawback to the show. Aside from a serious lack of Liefeld discussion;)

 

Don't worry, we go back to crapping on '90 art in a couple of episodes:P

 

Next two are in the can, I already let slip January's guest in this latest episode. Very happy to get that one done, I think you'll all enjoy the video, too.

Ironically, isn't Scott Williams part of "90s art" or does he get a pass???

Outstanding podcast as per the usual. Already waiting for DM vol 3 to drop next Christmas

 

It's "DMIII" in Dark Knight fashion

+1

I demand a DMIII next year! I'm sure he has a lot more to say; especially if '17 brings up something interesting...or catastrophic!

Felix, thank you for addressing my question and thanks for the compliment, too. After I emailed you the question, I thought that I had just sent the dumbest question out there, but you made it sound legit "on air."

I was very satisfied with David Mandel's answer. I was curious to know what motivates a collector who has an end-all collection and the means to acquire high-end pieces to come out of "retirement"? You know, I thought he was going to say something that pointed to an AF15 page, or the like, but to say that it was --- (I won't spoil it for those who haven't listened, but it's a Gil Kane cover), a cover he values at a "mere" $10K-$15K was a refreshing surprise. He did insinuate that he wouldn't spend "crazy stupid money" though. But what would that be? $30K? I did take away that he'd probably do something like $20K in trade (my insinuation). So in wondering what pieces a collector like David goes after, he sort of answered my question two other times: that Mazzachelli cover (which he traded heavily) and prime examples of Ditko Spidey villains.

What more, I truly admire about David is that he won't give in to extortion or pay a king's weight in ransom for a piece. Because of this, he's unfettered to give real talk about his Holy Grails and with that I think he takes back some power in negotiations if it ever came to that. Applying some armchair psychology to him, I wonder if he won't pay today's inflated prices because of the market prices he paid 20 years ago. Or to make a layperson analogy: it's like when I refuse to pay $50 for sketches from an artist to whom I used to pay $20 last year.

Just a final thought. David says he's taken a backseat in buying in the last 5 years (with the exception of that Skottie piece--yay!). What would the market be like today if he didn't slow down and he was making aggressive bids? I guess it might not be fair to put too weight on one person, but one must wonder.

All in all, great podcast. I could've listened to you guys all day.

This thread motivated me to download some photos of the 2014 Mike Zeck art exhibit that I had on my iPhone 4. This is a cheat, but here's a photo of the cover to Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8

I, for one, am happy about the way it ended. There was a piece I was eyeing but wasn't ready to put in a serious bid. I take comfort in knowing that it (possibly) is staying put and that if the owner chooses to make it available at another auction site, the price tag or the reserve will be lower.

 

 

In a logical world, that would always be the case. However, if the art belongs to a certain dealer there's a better chance of it going up on the site or on eBay for double the reserve it never hit in this auction.

 

Yeah I kind of wondered if he checked Coollines to see if it was listed on there...

I checked Coollines and it's not there, although that doesn't mean they don't have it.

So what you guys are telling me is that up is down, down is up, and if I want to go left, I have to move the controller to the right? Collecting comic art is like playing Nintendo's RC Pro AM all over again

I, for one, am happy about the way it ended. There was a piece I was eyeing but wasn't ready to put in a serious bid. I take comfort in knowing that it (possibly) is staying put and that if the owner chooses to make it available at another auction site, the price tag or the reserve will be lower.

Coolines + Pedigree =

 

Edit: I rather burn my money

 

yes, I also noticed a number of Cool lines art (some with their "additions").

 

I'm watching 14 items in this auction, & everything I'm watching jumped up quite a bit. all 14 items haven't hit reserve, which has me wondering if anything will.

 

I mean, reserves are even more than the standard Cool lines 3x FMV.

I think what happened were with a day left, things were bumped to 1 bid below the reserve, so the next bid will break the reserve.

 

doesn't Heritage do something similar? there's at least more transparency on Heritage & not the double taint of these guys...

 

for instance

https://www.pedigreecomics.com/v2/auction/comic_art/056410

 

AVENGERS: INFINITY GAUNTLET #2 COVER ORIGINAL ART(Thanos crushes Marvel)

ROM LIM & SANDU FLOREA art team - signed by both

 

this sold about a year ago on Comic Link for $1200 to Cool lines. it's ink only art, nothing by Ron Lim on this page. I want to say Cool lines had it listed somewhere recently for $3800? I don't remember exactly. now it's at $4250 on Pedigree.

 

 

I just want to add that I have owned three pieces for years now that Coollines has for sale on their website at the moment. Even then, I got one piece through Anthony Snyder, and two of them off eBay. Coollines also has at least one piece that is in Anthony Snyder's possession, and is for sale on eBay. (As a side note, Anthony has never taken down a piece from his site that I bought from him years ago.) There is also another piece on Coollines' site that popped up on Will's Comic Art page. When I inquired Will about this, he said that it's a consignment and the owner has had it for a while. That piece is no longer consigned with Will, but the owner is selling it through his CAF. So Coollines (and other dealers) clearly don't review their inventory and update their websites, so there is a chance that it's not Coollines who's selling the Ron Lim piece. I could see how the high reserve is there to protect the seller from a huge loss because he may have overpaid it with the Donnelys; he's probably trying to compensate for fees and is trying to break even. This might explain the Coollines-level of a reserve.

I do have a picture of the one with the wrong coloring. He even had it for sale at Baltimore on his table. I would've thought he'd at least offer it to me, but nope.

 

This doesn't sit right with me. So essentially, you pay him $200 and a "free" sketch cover and he turns around and sells this artwork for, say, $100, making $300+ off of you and you still get nothing in return? Sounds like a scam.

If you still want this artwork, don't expect to get it for another year or year-and-a-half. That's if you continue to hound him. And even then, you, like many others to whom this has happened before, may feel that the artwork is tainted and won't stand the sight of it. If you happen to catch him at another show, I'd have him compensate you with $200 or more worth of artwork (NO PRINTS!) and sell those on eBay to try to get your money back and maybe a little more.

Enjoyed this. Especially the roundtable on this one. Interesting to hear the chats when the table is with people of mixed interests and collecting levels, because they each inject a unique perspective. Would love to hear more of these with collectors of varying backgrounds.

 

Thanks Eric. The "collecting on a budget" episode has proven to be extremely popular, and I've gotten a ton of feedback on it, so it's encouraging that the audience is there for a wide range of collectors, beyond old-timers and BSDs.

Okay, I can't for the life me figure out what "BSD" stands for. The closest I've gotten is "buyer, seller, dealer."

I know that collecting New Warriors pages from Mark Bagley's run is getting harder and harder. There's about 3 of us main collectors and more and more others that are joining in.

 

Yes, I find some panel pages, but I'm getting pickier about the pages now. It makes it even harder for me. I want something splashy, with the main characters in costume. blah blah blah

Will's Comic Art page has put up a a dozen Bagley New Warriors pages , but the choice pieces have been snatched up.

RabidFerret, this is a wonderful post with a great conclusion. Thanks for sharing and taking the time to write it. It reinforces my conclusion that if you see 90s art, snatch it up. Although I may not be following my own advice.

I attended the inaugural San Francisco Comic Con last Saturday. Keith Pollard was there with a thick stack of art from the 90s--mostly Thuderstrike, Blaze, and Daredevil when he had the costume change. Most of it was mediocre stuff--talking heads, or pages without any of the title characters. If you were willing to pay the $75-$100 for it, you could get an okay page with a title character engaged in a little action. At the bottom of this pile of "drek," I found a really cool double SPLASH page of DD about to face off with the Kingpin. I asked about the price thinking if he wanted something in the high 3-figures maybe I can work something out with him. His asking price? $3,000. Sheesh. I walked away with nothing, preferring to save my $85 and roll it over to something I really want.

I draw that many artists may still have piles of 90s pages that haven't hit the market yet, but like Pollard's inventory, a lot has been picked out. I also found out recently that a well-liked artist from the 80s & 90s has kept a bulk of his art because he doesn't want to undersell it. Is it me or does it seem like the artists from the 80s-90s held on to their art more than other artists from other eras?