The Milkman

On 5/4/2020 at 4:05 PM, Spearmintrob said:

I have been reading all of your posts with both fascination and amusement. You can throw in a sense of respect for people who are reasonably trying to solve a "problem." It may only seem to be a perception problem, but to him/her to whom it is a problem . . . .well, it is a problem. This just occurred to me recently, and in response to someone's response about CGC and their view on it, here is CGC's official response:

"Thank you for your email. There is no liquid present, or anything that can damage your book. This visual phenomenon occurs when light passes through plastics with different refractive indexes (how they bend light). It’s what you sometimes see on a smartphone screen protector, or on the edges of an LCD television screen. In our cases, it’s the refractive qualities of the hard outer shell and the archival-quality Mylar sheets over the book, which have been approved by the Library of Congress for the preservation of paper.

 

There are Newton Rings present in all of our encapsulated books, these are considered normal and acceptable. Reholder service is available, however there is no guarantee that reholdering will eliminate or diminish the presence of Newton Rings. If you feel that your book has newton rings that are beyond our acceptable standards, you can certainly send us a picture and we will review."  Quotations mine.

 

So I sent the book back to be reholdered I was happy that it fell outside of the lines considered normal and acceptable. Upon return, I was flabbergasted to find those darned Newton rings of bent light yet again.  The problem here is that this particular cover: Danger Girl: Twenty Years (J. Scott Campbell Smoking Gun Virgin cover), simply highlights these refractive qualities. I do sell comics, so it is important that they look their best. I also suppose I simply could include this response from CGC in my listing to "teach" newbies that this is not a defect, but a visual apparition and does not inherently alter or lessen the value of your comic book. Alas, I just want to sell and not teach and simply wish they could "fix" or abolish this. 

I haven't got a book slabbed in two years, now, because of this.  I'm fine with waiting until they can solve this problem.

36 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Do you remember when they were received/shippedback, I have 2 reholder's at CGC, they've been there since Oct 22nd....  

They received them October 30th, and were shipped out December 7th.

*big sigh of relief*

I just got ten books back, today, from reholdering.  4 books were recent "free" reholders due to bad newton rings, 6 books were in old generation cases I figured I'd have done at the same time so I could combine shipping.  I'm happy to report that 7 have no newton rings at all, and 3 have very small newton rings - nothing I would complain about.  Overall, they look great.  As a side note, I had specifically requested that they got put in thicker cases (I've done this in the past, and it pretty much guarantees no newton rings,) but for whatever reason these did NOT get put in the thicker cases.  They are the regular, standard sized case.  They had sat in "verified" for over a month, and I'm pretty sure that request just got lost in the wait. 

There is also no scratching or scuffing on the cases or mylar. 

16 hours ago, DingoDog said:

Wow. Found this on the bay.

That slab pretty much perfectly sums up the NR problem. 

12 hours ago, Yorick said:

I'll keep trying to take a photo and will post it if successful.

Stand by a window where there is lots of light hitting the slab, and hold it at an angle until you can see them clearly. 

I subbed three books in September at FanEXPO.  Got them back today...  NEWTON RINGS.  Nothing has changed.  (And the back covers are crystal clear, BTW.) Pretty sure these would be deemed "acceptable" levels by CGC, but to me they're not.  I'm done.

Just thought I'd throw this in here.  This is a previous-gen case, and the first slab I ever bought.  Had newton rings all over Spidey's face.  I used the "slip-a-paper-inside" trick to get rid of the rings, but as you can see the paper actually scratched the mylar.  Sorry, I can't find my "before" pic of this slab.

5 hours ago, Gaard said:

why did they redesign the slab? I know they had a reason, but I can't remember what it was.

Because the previous cases were made out of Barex, and it wasn't being produced any more.  So they figured that if they needed to use a new material, they may as well improve the case design. And the new cases, when they are ring-free, scratch-free, and have the book centered properly, ARE a huge upgrade over the previous gen.

On 9/12/2018 at 6:37 PM, ThothAmon said:

Seems relevant to the discussion. I just received this email from one of my customers on eBay. 

”I did not see it before and I have hundreds of CGCs......anyway if you say it is normal..but next time please let me know in advance....regards”

It’s hard for me to believe someone has been lucky enough to collect hundreds of slabs without ever having noticed Newton rings. I think the very first slab I bought had rings in it - and it’s been something I’ve had to watch out for ever since. 

3 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

In other words has anyone actually gotten a reholdered comic yet that has taken the problem away?

Yes.  When I sent books back 8 months ago, I asked for them to be reholdered in the thicker cases.  (They had been doing this for free for people that complained about a year ago, but by the time I went to do it it was no longer free - I had to pay for the reholder.)  This solved the problem.  The thicker cases allowed for just a millimeter of extra space between the mylar and the outer shell, and it eliminated the newton rings completely.  That is the fix - use thicker slabs, or slabs that have a bit of space in them.

So I was basically paying to have my books graded, waiting the 3+ months to get them back, and then immediatley sending them back down for a reholder on my dime. Did this for about 10 books.

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

For instance, were you able to....for want of a different description..."duplicate the rings by pressure, i.e. pushing the shells back together? 

Absolutely, yes.  Take an old slab and push down on the front cover.  I bet you can get some rings to appear.  

6 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Is the latest 'crystal clear' case (the 3rd generation?) the only one to have the rings? 

I had newton rings on the old holders - it bothered me then.  And when they announced "the brand new crystal clear holders with no inner wells!" 3 years ago, I though my Newton Ring days were finally over. We all know how that went...

1 hour ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I am curious. Have you done this, and what was the result? Do you by any chance have before and after examples that you could share? If you have done so, what generation Holder was it? If you don't have any photos, is it possible you could do this on a case you have and take before and after results, and identify the Holder and when you received it?

This DOES NOT WORK on the newest holders, because they are completely sealed all the way around.  There is no way to slide or squeeze anything in between the plastic shell.  If you've ever held a new slab in your hand, you can quickly see this.

This trick worked on the old slabs because they were only sealed together on the corners.  I used the "slide a piece of paper in between" trick on a few books I had, and though it did work to get rid of the newton rings, I found that the paper often left scratches on the mylar.  So, even that old method wasn't perfect.

7 hours ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I thought there was a fix. 

There is a fix - using the thicker cases.

6 hours ago, Gaard said:

I'm wondering why so many slabs that need a reholder due to NRs are passed thru quality control. I wonder if QC is even supposed to be looking for bad NRs.

It's because they count on 85% of people getting their slabs back and not caring about newton rings.  Although we are being vocal about it, here, I feel we are still a very small minority.  They will only try to fix it if the customer complains.  If they were actually trying to fix it in QC, they'd be re-slabbing 50% of their product.

1 hour ago, skypinkblu said:

I don't know that I will stop shopping, but I will be looking up the numbers to make sure they are older unless I know the seller.. 

Books have been coming back with bad newton rings for the last two years.  I don't think targeting books older than early 2018 is going to matter.  I was sending back books to get re-holdered over a year ago...

I'm just happy to see this lengthy thread, here, on the boards.  I've been complaining about newton rings for the last year and half.  It's amazing to me how many people aren't bothered by the rings. I just want to pay for a quality service where the finished product comes back looking as advertised. (ie, "crystal clear.")  It's like someone said earlier - you wouldn't send a photograph or a piece of art to a picture-framer, and be fine with it coming back with blemishes all over the front. CGC cases are like frames for our comics.

It's a simple fix - they just need to use the thicker cases where the hard outer shell doesn't touch the inner mylar.  

Their quality control has been terrible lately. 

Definitely fullbacks.  Halfbacks are really flimsy.  And, I won't be thinking of changing them out for at least 10 years.

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 5:32 PM, I like pie said:

My latest batch of "acceptable" amount of rings. 28 books total. Almost half have the same degree.

CGC wasn't able to case them in the thicker cases anymore, which almost completely eliminates the rings.

My only choice is to suck it or switch to an inferior company.

 

 

Damn, that's horrible.  I don't know how they can call that "acceptable."  This is making it so hard for me to want to submit books anymore.

Just now, ADAMANTIUM said:

If there is space, do you end up with it shaking inside the case? 

Interestingly, no.  It is just enough extra space (1-2 mm) so that it's not packed tightly inside.  But not enough space that the book is loose.

Weather, air flow and humidity have nothing to do with Newton Rings.  It's not moisture in the air or in the slab.  It is an optical phenomenon only.  It happens when the mylar is pressed tight against the hard plastic shell.  For some reason, when they are putting slabs together, they can't consistently do it so that the inner mylar isn't pressing hard against the outer shell every time.  That is why that when you request the larger sized outer case it gets rid of the rings - because there is space in between the mylar and the outer shell.

On 4/30/2017 at 4:04 PM, AndyJibb said:

I've been saving up a bunch of slabs from different submissions over the past 8 months.  I have 10 or so that have newton rings that I would call "unacceptable."  Hopefully CGC will help me out with them.  For me, the presentation of the book is just as important as getting a book graded, so having a bunch of ugly rings on the cover is not something I want.

Just got my re-slabs back.  I asked them to put all the books in the thicker cases, like suggested earlier in this thread - and it worked.  I sent in 10 books, and they all came back with essentially no Newton rings.  A few of the books have what looks like minor scuff marks on the mylar layer, underneath the case.  This must've happened during handling of the reholdering.  But, it's a minor gripe as they still look much better than they did.