Peter L

14 hours ago, Taylor G said:

Spielberg has compared the current trend in superhero movies to musicals in the 1950s.

Tintin, War Horse, Bridge of Spies, The BFG, The Post, Ready Player One.  There is a meme reflecting this box office trend I'm sure, if only I could think of it.

On 8/13/2018 at 7:21 PM, fmaz said:

What a great discussion.

One thing that I think is sort of missed, is the way that time impacts all of this.  Because I think that, when you take a long view on art... you realize that ONLY craft will hold it’s value, except for extraordinarily important nostalgia.

What I mean is, that while now we look at a piece and we might talk about A,B,C and D level artists... when you go out 50 years... it might only be a handful of artists whose names still hold any real significance in the market. 

Similarly, now we value pages from key books, or key character moments .. but with the passing of time... all that will remain really will be the appearance on that page of key characters. What I mean is, right now if you have a page from Amazing Spider-Man, that book has value... but down the road, if Spidey isn’t featured on it... that page will not.  

And when it comes to minor characters, who are not really remembered at that point?  The pages will be evalued by the craft alone.  Do they tell a visually pleasing story?  Are they a good example of the genre? Etc.

For example, I have a Carmine Infantino page from his Nova run in my collection.  At some point in the future that will just be “super hero page”... and valued and evaluated as such.

My Ross Andru Amazing Spidey page will probably just be a Spider-Man page, and I wonder if my Andru Marvel Team-Up page will end up being valued in the same way... and their relative value will be based solely on the craft of each page.  

The reason I say these things is there’s precedent for it.  think of the great collected heroes of our parents (or grandparents) past... the Tom Mix, Lone Ranger, Roy Rogers, etc..  While some of the names still remain, the value of the collectibles doesn’t necessarily.  And while comic book heroes will still have their stories told even when comics are no longer published, its reasonable to assume the lack of comiics at some point will dramatically impact the evaluation of art in the marketplace relative, especially, to nostalgia.

 

 

 

I pretty much agree with this except I am more optimistic on the outlook.  What has changed the game is the evolution and success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in crossover appeal to the cultural zeitgeist.  Disney and WB have made superhero films tentpoles that they are investing heavily in for their future revenue.  These large multimedia companies will leverage these IPs to make as much money as possible.  

There will probably be new Spider Man and other popular comic book movies until the end of time from DC and Marvel.  And since Disney is at least involved, it will be good and it will be profitable, and it will be at the parks, in merchandise, on a streaming service and gaming.  And it will all be on the cutting edge of whatever kids are interested in.

I went to a small comic con and saw prices on random issue of Simonson's Thor going up and I asked the dealer and he told me it is because this character featured is going to be in an upcoming movie.  He said more women are buying comics than ever before.  The stats on the San Diego Comic Con I believe show that women attendees outnumber men in the last year or two.  Eventually Disney will make a great Fantastic Four movie and then interest in the original greatness of Lee and Kirby's FF will increase.  If Nova is on the list for the Marvel Phase 4 movies, that Nova page may get a bump, especially if it crosses over into the kind of mainstream popularity we saw with Iron Man and Thor.  For the superhero art that falls into these major movie universes, I think the future looks bright.

 

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

If both were of similar quality, then yes. But if the one that wasn't fresh to market was clearly the better piece, then it would still do better, despite the handicap. An A piece that isn't fresh to market should, by all rights, do better than a B piece that is. It's just that, in this case, the B piece will probably do better than it would have otherwise, while the A piece might not.

If it's art I'm interested in, I would LOVE it if a disproportionate amount of attention is paid to the "new" B piece. Let everyone else fight over the fresh piece...I'll take the stronger "stale" piece at a discount all day long. Over time, no one will remember which one was "fresher". But the better piece will still be better.

31 minutes ago, Marwai said:

We're talking about some high priced A type art, right?

The piece that has traded hands a few times probably has already reached it's max dollar potential for anyone buying high to resell higher.  You have to figure the well known BSDs were already approached with it privately or they already tried to get it/or even had it at some point while it was traded around.  There is already a price valuation attached to it.  So if you put it in auction, your bidding pool has been reduced to bidders who buy for the art that can still afford it or a dealer who see's a bargain and who's willing to sit on it for a while.  If you try to resell / flip this piece, your prospects for getting more money for it, especially from the known BSDs who already turned it down or had it before are none.  You'd have to wait for the hobby to expand and new players come in to resell it.

If your piece is fresh to market, there is a comp from the other piece being shopped around, but no actual price valuation attached.  There is still the potential for the BSDs to go head to head in the auction.

Of course, this is all hypothetical since no one is buying art for resale.

What the question that should have been asked is: If there would be any difference in HA result when one piece that has not traded hands and shown on CAF for 20 years versus another similar piece that has also never traded hands but kept from the public eye for 20 years?

For A level stuff maybe not.  If it's from a well known collector in good standing, its pedigree could be a plus.  If it's from some one/entity with a shady reputation, you may think there was some undisclosed restoration/alteration going on there to spend A level prices.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful answers.  The example I gave with the Thor pieces on HA was all hypothetical but set up like an evidence based experiment.  I do value anecdotal experience from people I trust like MI, but I was searching for a better way to quantify this phenomena and to test its accuracy and contributing factors to the outcome.

I can understand if a seller is going to big collectors and asking a closed circle of buyers what they would pay.  I can see how this closed circle of collectors would not offer as much for a piece that they have seen before and could have perhaps bought in the past, and this same group would then offer more for a newly seen piece.  However if a good piece goes to auction with a world of buyers, I would think that there could be great competition for a nice piece despite it being seen previously.  There is one piece of art I am trying to track down and a dealer told me it was sold to someone in Asia and it will be almost impossible to find.

 

1 hour ago, The Voord said:

A 'Gene Park's Greatest Hits' CAF album?  

Personally, I like to post everything to keep an on-line visual inventory of what I have.  Helps me keep tabs on art . . . good, bad or ugly

I deleted my comment because it was ridiculous.

11 hours ago, mtlevy1 said:

Post or Not - I vote Post!

I have my grail because I posted on CAF - so if you want yours you might want to do the same.

That said, I don't post every piece. When I get a piece, if it fits well in one of my galleries - and it is not too repetitive - then I generally post it.

Most probably know, but CAF has a default by artist listing now so you don't need to organize your CAF by artist - I found organizing in themes helps focus my buying as well.

In terms of inquiries, I don't get so many that I can't write appropriate responses - and have some fun with it sometimes.

In terms of fresh to market effect,  I haven't seen any data but I imagine it depends on a variety of factors I am not investing any time in thinking about just now

My 2 cents!

Mark

 

 

 

 

I have a question then.  How does the CAF default listing work?  When I try to post art, it makes me choose a gallery to put it in.  It won't let me put it into a general unsorted group.

How is the issue of the fresh art being valued more highly quantified? 

For example, Is it by increased bidding on HA for a piece that has not been on the market for 20 years?  Let's say there were hypothetically two covers for late 1978 Thor, and one was in a CAF gallery and had a few owners, and the cover for the next issue has not been seen since that time sitting in a personal collection.  If both went up for auction at HA this month, would the previously unseen cover get higher bids?

Regarding the theory that if a piece is not fresh and has been in the marketplace a lot over the last 20 years, and would bring in a lesser price, does this suggest that this isn't a top piece of art in the first place?  If a piece of art has switched hands a lot over the last 20 years, wouldn't that suggest that the piece is not so fantastic that the owner and subsequent owners would want to hang on to it?

I would think that someone who has owned the piece for 20 years really treasures it because it is a good piece, so it would go for more when it does go for sale because of its qualities and not just the freshness.

3 minutes ago, Brian Peck said:

He is a scammer! He has stolen art from golden age artists and tried to steal money from at least one collector.

Oh wow!  I missed a close one.  Most people I have interacted with on CAF has been terrific but he was not.   I am glad for being able to interact with you and this community.

38 minutes ago, Brian Peck said:

The Re-Animated corpse of Richard Rae and Keif Fromm are two of the biggest scumbags in the OA community. I feel they are the exception, most collectors I have met and had deals with have been positive no real issues. One exception, I had one guy who it took three years to get a page I bought from him (JP Voinot) but in the end another fine collector helped me get the page. Many know me and I think I have a pretty good reputation which helps when doing deals with other collectors who may not know me that well. Even though I am very open with my collection and try and help out other collectors, the hobby can be segmented and not everyone is connected to the online oa community as others are..

I have had a bad experience with Keif Fromm.  I didn't know he had a reputation about him.  What's the story about him?

3 hours ago, Kwan Chang said:

for the last few years.  hes been all digital. i remember when i asked about his black widow work.....he said no traditional art

Thanks.  That's just heartbreaking to me but that is the way things are going now.  

3 hours ago, cstojano said:

I noticed the same on CAF. I posted a piece to crickets. I then sell the piece and the new owner posts it to multiple positive comments. Not a huge deal, but definitely a head scratcher. I don't follow users and just search by artist or title to see what is new. Perhaps I am using the site wrong. 

I've seen the same thing but it could also be when the piece is posted.  There is so much homemade art being posted at times, it's hard to find the good professional published art.  I wish there was a sorting feature so we could just see the newly posted art without the homemade stuff.  

8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I have posted anything “new” in my CAF gallery for quite some time. I think people are choosing other venues, like Facebook, to do that more than previously. 

Do you mean posting on their own facebook page or in a collectors group?

19 hours ago, Bird said:

okay, here you go. I actually went with the idea that I was very open to buying something if I saw something that struck me. That didn't quite happen, and rather than just buy a Krenkel drawing I left empty handed. Some things to consider over time and I may have seen my next big purchase.

These pics are fairly random. They are mostly Albert Moy's stuff, Scott Eder's, and Coolines (the ones with the stickee prices) Maybe some other odds and ends (the Kieth is at Burkey's). Some are things I like and some are things I thought people might want to see. This Canete is interesting as I got my Canete commission when he wouldn't do Big 2 characters or I would have gotten Doc. Same price even I think. I liked this Conan pose...wtf?

 

and I am pretty sure that these are all coolines

 

Whose booth is the one directly above, the one with the 1978 Spider-man calendar?

On 8/7/2018 at 1:59 PM, Bronty said:

Oh I agree 100%, but its no different than 30k Alex Rosses and Jim Lees hot or relatively hot off the presses.   Its mental, but comic OA pricing is mental too.

On 8/6/2018 at 2:44 PM, rotembk said:

What number are we actually talking about?

As for the highest value options since ‘93 that come to mind:

- Wolverine losing his adamantium in ‘93 (so either the interior page of Magneto doing the deed or the cover to Wolverine 75 ). 

- The cover to NYX 3 (2004) sold for $71,700 on HA sligfhtly more than a year ago; could be the underbidder would be willing to pay more today?

- Batman Adventures 12 came out in ‘93. In the wake of NYX 3 several people on this board claimed they’d pay ridiculous prices for the cover.

By happenstance, UXM 266, NM 98, Adjectiveless Spidey 1 and the like missed the train by just a couple of years.

I agree with all of you that the NYX 3 was way overpriced for a character who can't sustain high sales on her own comic.  The latest issue of X-23 #3 sold 36,000 which is pretty low for a monthly comic, and a significant drop from the usual first issue spike.  Comics at that level border on cancellation.  X-23 couldn't keep The All New Wolverine from cancellation so I don't see how this could ever justify $71,000.  Maybe it was because Logan had just come out and there was thought that there might be some X-23 films spun off from this, which we now know won't happen with the Disney purchase of the Fox assets.  I think this was an aberration and not a benchmark.

I think Harley is different because she is popular to sustain her own comics, and also appear in group comics and may be in 4 movies currently in preproduction.  I'm not saying that $71k is a good measure of BA12 art, but more that I think that 71K for NYX 3 was not a good investment if that was what it was.  But maybe the buyer just really likes X-23 as a character and the art is not an investment.  So it's hard to find a fault with someone who really wants a piece for personal value regardless of the money.  

As far as I know, the highest a Ross sold for since that time was 50k which was supposedly a really large cover for the anniversary of Kingdom Come that was larger than a twice up page.  But a lot of great grade A pieces have sold for 35K in the last few years.  I don't think the high prices with his work are attached to the circumstances in the comics though.  I think they are associated with the craftsmanship of the pieces.  For example, if you look at Josh Middleton's undeveloped lines on the NYX3 cover, it has little to no aesthetic value with most of the work done on the computer.  If you look at a Ross piece, it is usually as a high aesthetic value put on the craftsmanship that has little to do with what is going on in the comic.

I think the Jim Lee popularity is both his craftsmanship, and that he seems to associate himself with some of the more important comic moments from his time at Marvel to today at DC.  

I also think the prices are depressed since 1993 because there aren't too many great landmark runs or stories since then.   If we look at this list, the only recent runs to make the top part of the list are Synder and Morrison's Batman and X-Men, and Brubaker's Captain America.

https://www.cbr.com/2016-top-comic-books-runs-of-all-time-master-list/

And on this list it's just Marvels, Kingdom Come and The Long Halloween.
https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-storylines-top-100-master-list/

So if we look at these two samples, it seems that comic voters don't seem to be appreciating comics since 1993 as much as they have before 1993.  On both lists as we go towards the bottom more recent titles show up but the sample size gets much smaller and there is recency selection bias.

Some other thoughts on this that I forgot to mention.  A few dealers mentioned to me that it is better to post because then sellers or dealers will often approach you on what you might be interested in.  I have found this to be true and people have approached me to sell things.  One artist private messaged me just to tell me he was going to put a famous work of his to auction in case I was interested.

Also sharing the collection gave me more credibility when making deals with people.

I have been asking this question to every collector and dealer I speak to.  This is my opinion as of now.

I am not as experienced a collector as many of you.  However I don't necessarily agree with the "fresh to market" thing on better pieces.  For example, if David Mandel decides to put up one of his posted pieces for auction like the Daredevil 181 or any number of his great pieces, it's still going for a lot with no shortage of bidders.  I'm glad he has posted his collection and has shared them with the museum in Seattle.  He owns a piece that I would like to have so I know that I don't have to waste my time looking for it.   From his point of view, perhaps if he got a really high offer for it he would sell it.   So there is some advantage of sharing it.  

I didn't think I would ever sell any of my art but I am changing my mind as my tastes change.  I'm not in a hurry to sell anything but if a good offer came up I would sell.  Sharing my collection would make this possible.

I've bought a few items that I really wanted from previous posters who removed their art, but I remembered who owned them and I wrote to them years later.  They had no plans to sell but I made them good offers.  Maybe it's possible they would have had even better offers if the pieces were public.  

I've seen the joking on the message boards on how something might sell at a Heritage Auction and then a dealer will buy it and flip it for more pretty quickly.  So it is not fresh to market after it sold at Heritage, but the price goes up a short time later in the hands of a dealer.  

If there is a random average piece, like the cover to Action Comics 672 (I have no idea what that is, I picked it at random but am a fan), and it is floating around to be sold by a dealer for years, I don't think its not selling just because it's around, but because there wasn't that great demand as it is.  

Also I think like many people, there is added joy when others can share in the same joy and see the amazing things that we see.  

I went to a fancy charity lunch recently.  I met a really rich guy and his wife.  He collects Old Masters paintings.  He travels to the big auction in New York and London every year, and he hangs out with the other collectors that he has gotten to know in each city.  It really changed my opinion about collecting art and sharing with others and finding community of people who enjoy the same things that you do.
 

Thanks to all of you.  I am looking for more of his recent work.

I was looking for an older Phil Noto cover.  Does he do all digital or not sell his published work?  I don't see any of his published work on CAF.

On 7/27/2018 at 7:44 AM, AnkurJ said:

An option. You can have a dealer represent you at auction and sell for 3%-4% over the sale price. It’s a small amount of savings but can add up.

What are the requirements for this for the dealer and the buyer?  What state does the dealer need to be in?  

Is there a tax benefit from having a resale license?

Can anyone recommend a professional restorer to remove tape?

On 8/13/2018 at 4:08 PM, delekkerste said:

You could just put them in every other page; that would probably solve some of the thickness problem if you were only using half the slots.  My portfolios are not that organized, though, so, I have some art in mylars/boards and some in without.  I don't purposely keep spaces open. 

The only mylars I've gotten are the BCE-070 Mylar Gards from BCE Mylar.  They are described as 12 1/2" x 18.5" with a 3/4" tab.  They stick out slightly out of the presentation pages in a 13 x 19" Itoya, BUT, do not stick out of the portfolio itself, as the way the presentation pages are bound into the plastic portfolio, there is a tiny bit of extra space.  As such, I would say this combination works.

As for boards, I use the BCE-041 Time-X-Tender 12 1/4 x 18 1/4" acid free boards, also from BCE Mylar.

One note:  I ordered 50 of each (mylars and boards), but, the package of mylars only contained 25 (even though the label said there were 50).  I don't know if this was a one-off error for a particular batch of mylars or what, but, I was bagging/boarding art before the NY Comic Art Expo in May and found myself with 25 boards and no mylars left.  I complained to the company and they did send me 25 more mylars to make it right, but, not before giving me the Spanish Inquisition treatment as if I was trying to scam them.   I had to pull the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?" line on them as they were wasting my time and pizzing me off.  

Thanks for the advice!  This was very helpful.  Now I know what to say if my order is ever shortchanged!

I have an update.  I now have the artwork.

On 8/16/2018 at 2:44 PM, Rick2you2 said:

 

My suspicion is that the prospective buyer expressed too much interest in the piece to the dealer.  

I wrote to him and I told him I was interested and asked how much.  I wasn't given a number and when he asked how much I wanted to pay I made an offer.  Then I was told it was sold.  So if this was a trick by the art dealer to boost the price, I would think he would have given me a number to start out with or not said it was sold.  When I got that email that it was sold , my first thought was to not respond because it was already sold, and my second thought was to respond with an F U.  So then if this was a trick, I think most people would have not responded but given up.

On 8/16/2018 at 5:18 AM, Rick2you2 said:

This may not have been the doing of the dealer but the artist.

Since the piece was not listed for sale, it may not have been the rep who had the right to sell it. The artist may have made a private deal which went badly, or he originally used the excuse of private sale because he wanted to keep it and then he changed his mind. A less likely possibility is that the rep did have a right to sell, told the artist he couldn't make a private deal, and ended up getting the right to sell it.

The dealer at one point said the artist is making the dealer do something weird in handling this.   At another point the dealer said he had me confused with another potential buyer and he thought he sent me a range.  

After I got the message it was sold, I responded and said I didn't know this was an auction and I was never given a price.  

My offer was based on other covers that this artist did that the dealer had for sale.  The artist is not a top superstar but you might have heard of his name.  To my knowledge he has not done any top tier titles but I know he did one of the lesser titles for a major publisher.  I might be wrong but I actively still read comics and follow Previews and look at CAF and CBR every day and I can't answer that.  This was for a variant cover of a #1 issue (one of five?) for a non major character for a smaller publisher.   It is not something I normally would collect, and don't usually collect his work, but it is a nice piece and it is the best work I have seen of his.  

The agent responded later that he thought he sent me a price and said he might have gotten me confused with another buyer and asked me to make a bid again.  I responded send me a price and I'll pay.  He gave me a range of prices.  I responded send me a price and I'll pay.  So he sent me a price the middle of the range.  This was going on for over a day.  Then I went home and didn't check my email.  In the next few hours when I was eating dinner, he emailed me repeatedly asking if he can call me, asking if I agree to the price, if it was ok, he needed to know right away etc.  

The price was a little higher than his other works which were often just a few figures and pen and ink, but he put much more effort into this piece so I was ok with that price.  When I commented that this procedure was strange, he said the artist is having him do something strange.  So maybe it was the artist.  Maybe it was the dealer.  Maybe the dealer was confused as he was packing up from a convention.  

There is more weirdness to the story regarding the payment and how I couldn't get ahold of the dealer for the next day as we agreed, but I'm as bored typing this as I'm sure you are reading this.  

The art did arrive in an itoya portfolio with a signed print of the work on one side and the art on the other.  It looks very nice.  I've never had a dealer do that before.  So I think it is a happy ending.  But it does make me appreciate the other art dealers more in how professional and hassle free they are.

54 minutes ago, sclemons said:

It is non-standard size and smaller.  My guess would be 6 x 8 in dimensions.

I pretty much agree with Jay.  Due to the small size I would say 6k.  At auction it might get 10k as the ceiling.  

If the size is 8.5 X 11 I would say $15k.  If the size is 11 X 19 I would say 15-20k.  

More has happened since my original post and in my opinion it is very strange.    I have since been told I have been able to successfully buy the piece.   But I am not exactly sure.   I'll let you know what happens.

As to more details of the original, that's all there was as in my original post.  That's what made it so weird.

I've spent a lot of money with most of the dealers (and many CAF collectors) we all know and in all the years I've been collecting this is the weirdest.