SecretComicRoom

27 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

What you said is factually incorrect.

The onus is on you to prove your claims. If you cannot, then again, I accept your concession.

Edit; Just so that the message to you is absolutely concise: You cannot prove a negative. If you claim that "God" is real, then you need to prove its existence. If you claim that encapsulation provides additional "archival protection", then you must prove it.

CGC makes that claim. to quote CGC the holder greatly slows down the aging process of the interior pages. 

9 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Show me the science that supports an encapsulation "greatly slows down the aging process" in comparison to a mylar and acid-free backing board.

I'll wait.

no you

I said of interior pages. and I did not say in comparison to mylar. some acid free backing boards are not full acid free. So if you have a mylar with a bcw backing board.. going to be different than with an e Gerber. 

Show me the science that supports your argument that pages age at the same rate in the holder as a regular poly bag and bcw backing board.  

7 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

You haven't, though.

"Should" is the real S-word. "Greatly" is as hyperbolic as when I said "stop".

If you're contending a "disagreement" with facts, then I accept your concession.

See: 2nd sentence.

it greatly slows down the aging process of the interior pages.

6 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

What's the science behind this "professional" opinion?

no science it is simple and I have already explained it so go back and re read if you care, if not oh well

6 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Incorrect.

 so what is the point of the archival encapsulation?  It should greatly slow the aging process of interior pages

6 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

I guess professionally-written English is "condescending" nowadays.

guess we will agree to disagree

4 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Look out, he's a "professional". Slabs stop the pages from aging!

I didn't say stop... I said it slowed down the aging process... esp of interior pages

14 minutes ago, kimik said:

A hint for any other pressing/restoration service - if you come on here complaining that CGC is too strict, think first about the message you are sending about the quality of your work to the broader collecting community that has never heard of you before.............

hence why a lot are not coming forward

7 minutes ago, kimik said:

One does not simply crack open any slab, do a shoddy amateur press job, and expect a grade bump from CGC......................

One does simply crack open a slab which has been screened by 2 people to be a good candidate for cpr, expertly pressed and expect a grade bump. Maybe not every single time, every single day but not like what is being described here. 

7 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

They say that using capital letters when writing makes it appear that you're shouting. There are other ways to emphasize without using capital letters...  

clearly repeating it doesnt work sweetheart.  

8 minutes ago, kimik said:

Name calling to defend a shoddy presser and restorer?

Go back to the PGX or CBCS boards.

you guys would argue with a rock if you could. Na ill stay here thanks 

33 minutes ago, kimik said:

According to who?

listen Kimik... according to some of the most important people in this industry. I am not going to name drop here to prove a point to you. 

7 minutes ago, kimik said:

I have no problem with it when I do the CPR game. If the amateurs are getting burned now, tough luck. 

for probably the 5th time now... HERO RESTORATION STARTED THIS THREAD. Probably the farthest from amateur

1 hour ago, Topnotchman said:

Pro tip here, if you choose to enter the CPR arena your only guaranteed to spend money and loose time. 

the pro tip thing was old the first time. I only used it to be condescending to someone who I felt was being ultra condescending.

 Maybe that has been ur experience but that has not been others experiences for the last decade until recently.

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

Of course. Please bear in mind that CGC and CCS employ some of the top experts in the world and they all handle hundreds of books every week. They know exactly what they're looking at and exactly what to look for. Even expertly pressed books can exhibit certain characteristics which may be viewed as flaws by eagle-eyed graders...

 

and some pressers have been trained by some of these top experts in the world in grading to know exactly what to look at and what to look for. Some of these pressers are handling hundreds of books every week as well. Yes expertly pressed books can exhibit certain characteristics which may be viewed as flaws by eagle-eyed graders... sure... all day... but then that should have been a problem all along. Not just now. 

32 minutes ago, Topnotchman said:

Show me some examples of these books that have been degraded, along with grader notes, I would be willing to give you a complimentary second opinion. 

I get complimentary second opinions from people I know personally who have or are professional graders. It is why I am taking a strong stance here and not even so much for myself... for other people who aren't willing to come out and talk about this problem due to fear it will hurt their business. They cant pay rent or whatever else. 

29 minutes ago, kimik said:

Exactly. There are a ton of horrible amateur and “pro” pressers out there now. People are basically butchering the books. I am curious to see how much of a negative impact widespread bad pressing will have on books longer term.

while I agree with you 100 percent... do you see who made this initial post? Hero Restoration. When I talk about "pro" it is someone who is familiar with working with paper at the full conservation and restoration level. People who know paper. Not someone who bought a pressing guide and a t shirt press 6 months ago.

19 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

You can always choose to move the game to a different venue...  

Thats already been done by most. They have cut off CPR until it is ironed out but that should not have to be the case. Not at all. Sorry you dont agree. 

11 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Sounds like you've had a pretty good run...

If you know how to look for defects, understand grading,  and know how to press all of those defects out to really improve the comic... you think that person should not have had a good run?

 If you quantifiably improve something, and someone basically degrades it... thats how this should work?

9 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Thank you. I certainly appreciate your support!

I've also worked in customer service, and dealing with dissatisfied customers was a pretty common event. And of course I understand the disappointment people feel when things don't go as expected---I've been there myself a time or two. All I can offer in this situation is what I hope is good advice, but sometimes people need to vent their frustrations. So please, by all means...vent. 

I am simply pleading the cases of people who do not wish to come forward for varying reasons while trying to set the record straight. I think you offer some good advice but I do not agree with things you say regarding CPR. When you have someone who always gets 1-5 grade bumps on CPR books over the course of 10 years, and all of the sudden its not happening.... multiplied by multiple people.

Imagine for 10 years you can bump books and you can count on ur single finger how many books have not bumped when you thought they were a candidate now all the sudden every order is coming back with no bumps and losing grades.... while you have improved your process. Come on now!

8 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I understand completely. I'm just saying that the CPR game isn't foolproof (as this thread seems to confirm). But I certainly wish you all the best of luck in your future endeavors...  

Im not convinced you do completely understand because the CPR game used to be able to take advantage of as a competent presser, hell even Joe Shmo could read a guide, buy a t shirt press and bump a book but clearly now it isn't foolproof.... but I do know certain peoples pressing game is. When you have an excellent presser, who pulls an excellent candidate, it should not really be a roll of the dice. 

Only one real example is being shown here when I know there are many competent passers going thru this same thing being described in this thread. Again, imo, there is something more going on here. 

And thank you for wishing me luck... seems like Ill need a lot of it around here. 
 

7 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

Pro tip from an actual long time member here.  Lighten up Francis.  The Lions Den has professionally graded more books than you have seen.  

Well when you have guys not listening or not reading posts, it gets a lil irritating having to re explain or repeat. and I highly doubt that. 

11 hours ago, ftlepore said:

Oddly condescending response, but okay.

If CGC stops caring about the market and their effect on it, then people are going to find alternatives. That's pretty simple. Once the company that EVERYONE uses as the market standard stops caring about the market, they're going to lose credibility and that's bad for business.

I guess 2019 alone was a terrible year for this "aging" you mentioned, since that's when multiple of these 70 year old books "aged." I guess I was just coincidentally right on the cusp and 2020 was just The Year of Cream. 🤔

SERIOUSLY! 

11 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

If you're inferring something that isn't being implied, then it's not a matter of disagreement. If you think that pages are eternally one quality, then my post exists to inform you that you're wrong. Just because they were "stored in boxes" does not exempt them from aging. Aging is literally, like Thanos, inevitable.

my post exists to inform you that you are the one who is wrong sir! Because these books were not "stored in boxes" they were "encapsulated in archival Smithsonian museum quality like materials" which greatly slows the "aging" process. Or do you not know what those shiny plastic cases with grades before and after, are?? 

21 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

I'm sorry for everyone that has had a bad experience, but that's one of the reasons I don't have any book pressed unless it's an excellent candidate and it can be substantially improved with a pressing. Personally, I always consider it to be a roll of the dice...

What part of books being selected by a competent presser as an excellent candidate are you having trouble understanding? We are NOT talking about Joe shmo who just picked up a pressing guide, t shirt press and some steal ball bearings here. We are talking about people who are basically experts at pressing here. Guys who have been submitting and working on cracking and pressing books for 10 years... every single day! 

14 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Why should CGC care about the market?

There's also a thing that happens to pages of paper. Most of us call it "aging". At some point in time the PQ is going to dive from once you what observed it to be.

Pro Tip: CGC is not the authority on grading. You are not forced to agree with their opinion of a book's grade.

PRO TIP... FROM AN ACTUAL PROFESSIONAL HERE- "aging" of paper does not happen to that degree while encapsulated. Sorry to burst ur pro tip bubble. 

5 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

You make an interesting point. If I may, I'd like to offer a couple of other possibilities: 1) The books could have originally been graded at a different location such as an on-site grading venue. The lighting at onsite grading locations can be quite different than in the CGC grading room.  2) Page quality can be tricky to determine even in good light. Believe it or not, some books will actually have different levels of page quality from one page to another. I've seen books that were Cream to OW on the first page but OW/W on the last page. This would be even more likely given the age of the books; different weather and storage conditions over the years can cause many anomalies.

As far as the grade goes, most graders are occasionally a half grade or more away from each other. The things that determine the difference can be more a matter of perception than anything else. So to see a grade drop half a point doesn't surprise me much, even if a book was pressed. However, I would ask for the grading notes, which may reveal a hidden clue as to why the grade changed...

If it was just this one case and not an extremely competent presser I would agree with all your points. I am hearing of many situations this is happening. Other well known, quality pressers as well. 

I do not really agree with "even if a book was pressed"  unless we are talking about someone who does not really know what they are doing and or it was a singular issue. This is not a singular issue. 

On 11/6/2020 at 11:24 AM, jeffreyk said:

I buy lots of silver-age CGC books and was just using this one as an example as I just received it.   I really don't see much of a difference from the books I have purchased whether they are in new cases and recently graded, or new cases graded a few years ago, or even against the 1st and 2nd generation holders.  Most books are graded spot on to me, a few may be under-graded and a few over-graded but always within a half a point either way.  

Also, several of the books in the pictures above are not from CGC.  

You can buy as many as you want and compare grades but that is not exactly what is being talked about here. If you buy a book grading 7.0 and a professional is taking the time to crack it out because they see press-able defects, which in all other cases have net 1-4 grade bumps, and it comes back lower grade with lower page quality.... time and time again over the course of 5 months.... there is something wrong. 

We aren't talking about recent up and coming instagram pressers with a cheap t shirt press here either. We are talking about guys who literally do this as their main profession... every day... for 5-10 years. Come on now

and furthermore all of those books are in CGC cases, being recently graded by CGC. 

1 hour ago, jeffreyk said:

This is interesting.  I just purchased a silver age book off the boards here in cgc 9.0.  I checked the serial number and it was graded on 9/4/20.  The book looks to me to be a borderline 9.0 so at least on this book, I don't see anything super strict.

you are talking about a singular book. These guys submit hundreds of books a month and are talking about books which were previously graded, then cracked out due to seeing correctable defects thru the case making them a candidate for the process. So they get pressed and Re Submitted then they come back a lower grade and a lower page quality. It simply does not make sense, esp in the cases where they were recently graded. Page paper can not age to the point where it drops quality that fast, especially encapsulated. Something else is at play here. 

I know they have been pressured to get tighter on their grading but this seems above and beyond.