Rick2you2

If you like this one, another full length version popped up today on EBay Europe for only 789 Euro’s. I would post it, but I can’t figure how to do it from an iPad.

On 12/15/2023 at 3:20 PM, 1classics said:

That’s the issue, it’s not SA and not considered peak era Infantino, though still nice, but this is the tail end of the Bronze Age and nearly into the copper age…

And that’s what I get for not noticing the date. Still and all, the mark-up is light.

On 12/14/2023 at 11:28 PM, KirbyCollector said:

This one hurts b/c I was the underbidder in September... from Bechara's update tonight

Price wise, his margin, by dealer standards, isn’t that bad. Makes me wonder about the marketplace for Silver Age DC, because if Bechara could get away with a higher margin, he would. 

On 12/8/2023 at 11:28 AM, Bronty said:

On the face of it, its such a paradox.     The same collectors that demand color in their printed comics and won't consider B&W printed comics (short of TMNT 1) demand the opposite (b&w only) in their OA collecting.   I've wrestled with understanding this effect as well, but over time I've come to see there are really several good reasons.    Off the top of my head:

1.  Comic artists (pencillers/inkers anyways) spend their lives drawing, not painting.    They often really aren't very good painters.    They can get by with adding a little watercolor to an ink drawing, but fully painted pieces?   Its just not what they spend their career doing.    They are rarely great at it.  

2.  OA collectors understand stats, white-out, authenticity, etc on b&W pieces.    They don't really understand painted pieces the same way - a little weird/intimidating/scary to them.    They know to what to look for on published b&W OA.    They may not be comfortable assessing authenticity on a painting (as you know a drawing is easier to forge than a painting, but that if they don't know what to look for, they don't know what to look for).

3.   Paintings take so much time.    Its difficult to have a broad body of comic book work if you're a painter (only).    People like Sienkiwiecz (sp?) that both painted and drew and did both have managed to have a big collectable body of comic art, but only by doing both. 

4.  Most critically of all, I think there is an overwhelming psychological reason.     People tend to bid on, support the value of, pieces similar to some way to something they already have.    Placing a premium on painted work would be really uncomfortable psychologically because it would require the collector to mentally accept that the b&w pieces in their collection - that they love and maybe paid through the nose for - are 'lesser' somehow.    Simply put, everyone is far too invested in b&w work (probably emotionally but *certainly* financially) to not have b&w trade at a premium.

I think it’s just the cleanliness of the line as compared to the subtlety of color. Some movies, for example, are best when not colorized, like film noire. They lose their grit. People also collect Chinese and other calligraphy where the pieces are purely black and white. Likewise, some of their scroll art falls into that category (not all), and often have more “sharpness” to them than the colored ones. 

Yet the more typical person doesn’t feel that way. I have a few colored pieces, and my better half invariably prefers them to black and white—even really good B&W. Same with my kids, when they have deigned to look at Dad’s art (mostly out of a sense of filial duty).

On 12/3/2023 at 6:40 PM, Silver Surfer said:

Historic economic growth fueled by endless printing of money. Sounds like a false economy to me. 

The increase in the money supply absolutely fueled inflation— but so did supply-push inflation due to the restrictive supply chain, which only really cleaned itself up this past year. One result is that the increased supply of durable goods prices showed deflation (of 2 percent as recall). With the economy slowing down a bit but still healthy, I think we’ll be in pretty good shape for the next 6 months (absent war or other major disaster).

Those extra dollars also saved us from an economic freeze up due to Covid. That could have produced a catastrophe.

On 12/4/2023 at 5:15 AM, vodou said:

False.

The Dow is up 9.3 percent since Jan. 1, 2023. On Dec. 15, 2022, the Prime rate moved up to 7.5%. It is now at 8.5%. 

Yes, I would spend it without difficulty. For me, the driving force is scarcity and quality. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find quality Phantom Stranger pages which fill a gap in my existing collection? If the quality isn’t there, or I don’t l like the artist very much, I may still buy it, or not, but not at an excessive price. An advantage I have is that the character is not in high demand. So, I don’t usually pay an excessive amount. 

On 12/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, delekkerste said:

It was 2022.  

Usually when the Fed has to start cutting rates, earnings are on the cusp of imploding and stocks go down. If you had bought when the Fed started cutting rates, you would have gotten destroyed in the last two major bear markets.

The Fed began cutting rates on Sep. 18, 2007 - the S&P 500 topped out 3 1/2 weeks later and ultimately went down 57.8%.

The Fed began cutting rates on Jan. 3, 2001. The S&P had already started its bear market by then, but, fell another 41.4% into the October 2002 low from the point when they started cutting rates.

You sell the first rate cut and buy the last rate cut. 

Perhaps I’m missing something, but rates have been going up most of the year. So did the stock market. That’s atypical.

On 11/30/2023 at 4:10 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

My pure layman's guess is that the stock market will generally start going up when the Fed starts reducing interest rates next year, as people seek the best returns. 

That’s the historic rule, but in this case it looks like both the market and interest rates went up. So, we may have a different dynamic at play.

On 11/27/2023 at 1:54 PM, Michael Browning said:

My purchases embody my personal sense of nostalgia, too, so I totally understand that, but I also live on a government worker's salary and have a mortgage and a car payment, so I have to be very aware of how I spend every dollar I make. I have been very blessed to have bought earlier than most people, so I don't have a ton of money in some of the great art I've got. But, I've said this probably a hundred times: I'm very realistic and know that I am 51 years old and, as much as I would love to keep this stuff for the rest of this life and into the next, it just isn't possible -- and who wants to die with all this stuff when you've got no family to leave it to? My wife hates all of it until I sell a piece here or there and pay something off or put some cash into our account. I'm certainly not rich enough to just sit around and enjoy it every day, though I think it's great that you and your dad are/were able to do that. I've often said that the one thing rich folks have that us average people don't is the luxury of time. 

I’m not rich; I just don’t care for most potential purchases. And I don’t spend much, either. Bought a cheap car (by preference), gave the house to the ex-wife, and the kids are almost off the dole.Don’t like fine dining very much, don’t care for wine, not much interest in travel, anymore. As for what I leave behind when I die, that’s my heirs’ problems. My artwork similarly reflects my spending habits. I just don’t think the amounts spent, or commanded, for a lot of this stuff is worth it to me. You don’t have to spend a lot to get great memories, but letting them go? No, getting them was hard enough. I spent 4 years trying to get a Sinkewicz cover. I won’t part with it now, and it isn’t even a favorite.

On 11/26/2023 at 10:50 AM, vodou said:

Almost everyone that "isn't investing" writes that because what they've been buying hasn't kept up or has even lost value.

It's a justification for the contrarian that refuses to stop catching falling knives.

I wasn't investing either, the first 10 years, but then I had to justify continuing after hitting 10x ROI and not selling.

It's well known that I don't sell (nor trade) and haven't for a long time; in total I've sold less than 3% of all the art I've ever acquired.

This in spite of the value today, for the lot of it (call: 1-800-Heritage) being life changing money, by a wide factor too.

It may seem that I'm trying to pick a fight here, I'm not. I agree with large parts of both sides of the discussion, my only distinct point would be...

You can collect anything if you have extra money to blow after the bills are paid each month. Most collector-types have an interest in and collect a number of things, some are quite popular, others more niche. Okay. So buy what you love, always, but maybe lean a lot heavier into buying what others (do or will) love too. In 2023 this doesn't apply to comic art, the days for 100% of everything in your bank/saving/401k/IRA going into it...that ended about 20 years ago. What else are you into...maybe one of them is out of favor and troughing, I dunno...figure it out. There's no reason a collector can't love what they collect and benefit (mightily, even) from asset appreciation over the long run too; then the only pain would be: selling things you love for silly old money. I have a feeling that time comes for everyone that doesn't die young though, you just see more need for liquidity/money and less need for stuff all over the place and then "click", the process begins.

For all collectors, unique trumps multiples. As soon as I found wide availability of comic art (unique), I lost nearly all interest in comic books (multiples, tens of thousands). The fact that "my" era was 80s Marvel superheroes...some of that is just "right time, right place" I guess, but I'll tell you...very few put everything after bills paid into that material in the mid-late 1990s. Anybody alive then could have done it, anybody holding could have not sold (to me) and just continued to hold. They didn't and within just a year after diving in, I saw the entire sub-category as a tremendous generational trough opportunity and took it. Over and over again. And unlike roughly 80% of all the collector names I knew way back then, I didn't sell out at double, triple, etc, have the hobby leave me behind; I am still here today, enjoying the art, loving the art, and patiently waiting for "when" to cash out too.

Good thing you said “almost”, since you already know my views. And, as you know, I have acted accordingly. If I had a large pile of stuff that wasn’t near and dear to my heart, then I could sell it or trade it. But money won’t change my life, or my tastes.

My father had a collection of Persian rugs he loved, but he would never sell them. They reminded him of his trips abroad, as well as times with my mother and his family. During the last few years of his life, he liked to make kimchi, gazpacho, and count the pelicans while sitting on his deck. Money didn’t matter. What did were his memories. 

And I guess I pretty much feel the same. My purchases embody my personal sense of nostalgia, and the pleasure of meeting artists and other collectors, or even scoring at an auction. It isn’t the art. It’s the memories.

Nov. 26, 1922, Schultz’s birthday.

On 11/25/2023 at 11:35 PM, tth2 said:

This.

Going against the herd is great when investing in the stock market.  It's terrible for comics and OA.

If you are investing. Many people here, like Cstojano, don’t.

I hope she steered clear of the January 6 “insurrection”. I would have to wait a long time between sending over something and getting it back.

On 11/23/2023 at 9:01 AM, tth2 said:

Why do you take things so personally?  Substitute "most valuable" for "best" if that makes you feel better.  It was just a generic observation that the smart guys had sold at the top of the market. 

I don’t take it personally; I do think that there is a difference which deserves to be observed.
Would Alex Johnson not be considered a smart guy because he likes fake Sugar and Spike recreations? What about people here who collect things like commissions, even though they have the least likelihood of appreciation? The smart guys who consider the investment value of their collection may own a lot of valuable art, which isn’t always the case, either, nor do brains give one precognitive powers, but I am definitely not one of those who looks at the value of his collection and I am no dope. To me, this is all play money, never to be recouped, and I suspect I am not alone. That point deserves a defense on behalf of all us dumb-dumbs.  

On 11/22/2023 at 10:36 PM, tth2 said:

Not surprisingly, the smartest guys own the best art, and are the most knowledgeable about when to git while the gittin's still good.

They may own the most valuable art, and coveted art, but “best” is in the eyes of the beholder. Since I don’t care for most Silver Age Marvel art, does that make me dumb? 

On 11/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, Kryptic1 said:

I didn’t realize how far off we were from 2022 levels until I did the math.  Here’s the total value of art sold at Heritage signature auctions for each of the last 3 years:

2021: $31.7M

2022: $61.9M

2023: $38.2M

They’re 38% down from ‘22, and if you exclude the sale of Frazetta’s Dark Kingdom in the June 2023 auction, they’re down 48%.  Obviously we haven’t seen that kind of decline in prices.  The quality of art in these auctions is nowhere close to what it was last year when some crazy prices drew out a lot of incredible art.  Now consignors are expecting the same crazy prices, dealers have priced their inventory above ‘22 levels, and buyers aren’t interested at those prices.  It seems like buyers and sellers are now in a staring contest, waiting for the other to blink.

What you are describing could be evidence of the beginning of a price bubble collapse. Or, it could be just a temporary, broad price retrenchment. Or, perhaps, changing market interests. We won’t know until we can use hindsight to figure it out.

So long as dealers have stock purchased at low prices, and particularly if they are only part-time, it could be a very long wait.

On 11/22/2023 at 10:31 PM, tth2 said:

2008/2009 and 2020 were two of the best opportunities to invest ever.  If you weren't putting every available dollar into the stock market and other assets at those times, you were wrong.

I have no doubt you are mathematically correct, but I did not care. It’s just money and I am quite comfortable, so why gild the lily?

On 11/22/2023 at 6:30 PM, MAR1979 said:

and not if you use the opportunity to invest heavily while prices are down.

I have probably lost a lot of money over the years in that sense, but to be candid, I just don’t care. Money has pretty much has taken care of itself for me. But, the fields of economics and business do interest me, a lot.

On 11/22/2023 at 3:54 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Were you invested in the stock market in 2008 or 2020? Did you lose money? If you weren't in the market in 2008, did your home decline in value in the years afterward? I'm simply saying the party is ending next year, to be careful and to prepare financially. I had a friend who lost 50% of his 401k in 2008; I retired, while he has continued to work to make up for those losses. Saying "Everything is fine" doesn't help your account when a Lehman Bros capsizes the financial system -- and an event of that size is coming again.

I did lose money in 2020, but it came back in about 12-18 months. So, I effectively lost 1-2 years worth of asset growth. Not tragic.

The economy always runs in boom/bust cycles; usually every 7 to 9 years there is a recession. But then, like in the old Fred Astaire/Ginger Rodgers song, it “picks itself up, dusts itself off and starts all over again.”

2008 and 2020 were exacerbated by special conditions. Same with an earlier recession involving the S&L debacle. Without anything special on the horizon, the worst case scenario should be a retrenchment not a collapse. Of course, if we find out something surprising, like all those medium sized banks are holding too many commercial real-estate mortgages, that’s a wholly different problem. 

In terms of comic art, I think the biggest long term issue is the aging out of people who collect from earlier eras, like the Silver Age. Much like semi-collectible pre-war cars, they live and die by their market age.

On 11/22/2023 at 7:06 AM, KirbyCollector said:

A year from now the stock market will be in severe distress and then we'll see what happens to collectibles. I was not buying OA after the 2000 dotcom crash, but I was buying after the 2008 crash and there were many OA bargains to be had. The crash in 2020 was a complete outlier b/c so many outlets for consumer spending were cut off that internet-available collectibles became of the direct beneficiaries of the idle cash. The coming stock market decline (and Gene can probably back me on this) in the spring/early summer 2024 will be significant but under "normal" economic conditions, so it may look more like 2008. Personally, I am preparing for something much worse and divesting myself of those collectibles I do not absolutely "love."

This is not meant as a warning; you have to do what you think is right, and what is appropriate for your financial situation. I hope OA retains its values, but a broad-based decline seems more likely.

I don’t see it. So long as profits are decent, employment is low, and the Federal government continues to engage in deficit spending, we should be okay unless there is a major war or consumer spending dries up (slowing down isn’t enough, it has to actually shrink). Money has to go somewhere, and the stock market is as good a place as any. So, I think you’ll see relatively stable times (maybe a market correction for a short period of time). 

On 11/21/2023 at 10:25 AM, Michael Browning said:

I think that, despite the Liefeld Cap art selling so high, we are definitely not in the same market as we were in 2021. A friend had more than 60 pieces in the auction and he told me the end results were $50,000 lower than the HA estimates. Another friend was given a $6,000 estimate on a really early strip he consigned to HA and it only got $3,600 and he was very disappointed. He has three more coming up in the next Wednesday auction and he’s worried they’re not going to do well at all. I asked him last night if we plans to consign more to them and he was unsure. He has several more strips to auction, but he fears the low results of the big piece in this auction and the low bids on the ones in Wednesday’s auction means the other strips will sell even lower.

Which is an example of why I don’t expect a lot of top notch art being placed for sale until either the market turns up again or people decide they have to get out. 

On 11/19/2023 at 10:16 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I am shocked it sold for more than $250, regardless of how incredibly popular Invincible is, or how monumental the "toilet" story is, or how rare these pages are.

I'd say that you can probably buy the original artwork from those airline instruction sheets and get the same level of quality illustration and visual excitement for far less than $15k. 

“Visual excitement”? Must be a number of high-rolling coprophiliacs out there.

On 11/19/2023 at 10:16 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I am shocked it sold for more than $250, regardless of how incredibly popular Invincible is, or how monumental the "toilet" story is, or how rare these pages are.

I'd say that you can probably buy the original artwork from those airline instruction sheets and get the same level of quality illustration and visual excitement for far less than $15k. 

“Visual excitement”? Must be a number of high-rolling coprophiliacs out there.

I passed on the Jae Lee cover. I wasn’t willing to pay $1,300 for it 6-7 years ago. This time I went that high, not counting BP, but couldn’t like it enough to go higher. Nevertheless , if one of the other three PS Covers come up, that’s a whole different story…