HighGrade

My guess is to why many are good, scammer is probably sending in say 8, 10 whatever books with 2 or 3 that are off grade or swap sealed his way, maybe even a few small cracks at the bottom to hide any imperfections, so these 2 or so books just get mixed in with the good books to be reholdered. Think about it, you might start to look closer, or think something is up if someone sends in "all" books with tiny issues, or sends in "all" books with bad grades/swap or don't match up, it becomes more obvious with 10 in a row. So the simple answer is, you throw in good books, good holders in with your bad books or janky holders. Even a real eagle eye might go over a few bad apples when rushing, I mean if you reholder books all day, your going to start to get lazy, but if 8 bad apples show up in a row, you might notice it, say hey WTF is this? Buying small collections it's a common practice of scammers to toss in books with missing pages, coupons out, or back cover damage especially. I try to look at "everything" but of course it's not easy, scammers hope a collector or dealer just doesn't look at everything. Of course this is rare, most sellers are honest, but I'm just pointing out that the old slip in a few rotten eggs is a practice used by scammers. It's happened to me, you just trust a seller, later look and one of the better books, and it's missing a page..AARRGGH, I got a batman 47 with a page missing because I wasn't looking at every single page in every book, I was rushing. So yeah, I think that is exactly why there are good ones, scammer is not being legit or kind, but just trying to hide what he's doing in with legit books/holders.

I agree, I have a LOT of books like that, I purposely look for books that are either under graded or have defects that can be cleaned/pressed away. They are fine the way they are to me, or maybe I'm just too lazy to do the work. So yeah I love and hate what that Marvel Comics #1 went to, part of me says it's not original, looks artificial and pushed too far, but part of me says WOW! looks amazing....so I learned to accept it. Kinda like women, I still prefer natural, not all made up, original. But all made up pressed and cleaned into a shiny new outfit, and WOW looks amazing! You just learn to accept it, pressing and cleaning is fine, but you can push too far and it loses that authentic look.

OK, But it is the same copy, it's not a problem, 100% both are the same Windy City Marvel #1, no shenanigans. It was pressed and cleaned at lest twice went from a 8.5 to 9.0 to 9.4, the last cleaning and pressing was amazing, they pressed a crease out on the back that really jumped the grade up. I posted that a while ago and then @MasterChief posted a beautiful timeline showing everything from start to finish a few pages ago. This just continues to illustrates my point that CGC needs to put more notes on the holder and in the cert lookup, plus keep original images and reholder images. These changes are simple and make a huge difference, otherwise questions will continue to pop up and cause a lack of confidence in books being legit. These side by side images with new cert# and pedigree will haunt CGC because 99% of the people do not know, a simple note on the holder and all this never happens. Unfortunately due to scammers now everyone needs to see a book they are selling or buying is legit... need to be able to go back and see each time CGC slabbed it, so the buyer/seller knows it's the book they are buying/selling, and any notes describing it, of course the bigger the book the more cost, more notes etc.. some of these notes should be right on the label too, like here showcasing the year the Windy City pedigree was recognized. We'll get there, all this is good.

I see what your saying, but here nothing was hidden on those books? all 3 of them were listed with photos in high resolution, with sales figures too. Heritage keeps all past sales for buyers to see, regardless of Pressing/Cleaning or higher or lower past sales, and GPA actually has increased peoples willingness to buy books. This is not an issue with the "flipper/Investor. Nothing is really hidden today and Heritages past log of all sales is actually is a great comfort. Lately I research books on Heritage to gain confidence that it is the original book, it doesn't stop me if a book was bumped, unless I don't agree with grade, but that's me, I'm still a believer of buy the book not the grade, I'm holding out on this one Pressing/cleaning was way more of an issue with true older collectors, the hobby has shifted, buyers and sellers want higher grades regardless of the book. And maybe sad, but today the buyers #1 issue is not the pressing/cleaning and high grade bumps, no, they want that, they understand that game! Now people need to feel the book they are buying is in fact the book CGC graded, Because the only way to get maximum $$$ now is with transparency. Ideas I mentioned would only help future confidence with buyers. Just look at this situation, adding anything to that cert lookup or label and none of that talk about HEY it's the same book would have ever happened. You can't afford now to have things left up to question, they have to solve the biggest problem facing them or the big $$$ goes away if there is no faith in what they are buying. Do you think PSA wanted to post all the scans up? nope, but they do post all scans now because with counterfeits the have to, to give people peace of mind.

This Windy City Marvel #1 will keep popping up, and this is why CGC Has to do a better job on the label and cert lookup, now when entering the newest cert# 1625297003 on the Marvel Comics #1 Windy City copy there is nothing letting you know the past history of this book, and it's all legit, yet people out there will never know unless they ask someone who knows about this book and it's history. Seeing a book switch cert numbers and turn into a pedegree is obviously going to cause confusion when in reality it's all very simple and all very legit. As this picture is posted on the internet and people don't read or research it, at first look people will think it's a swap or a scam, it's not, but they don't know. So another GREAT idea PUT the old cert# in the notes! and say newly recognized as Windy City in notes, because we are now going to see more pictures like this that are perfectly fine newly recognized pedigree or upgrades from pressing/cleaning, but there will be photos showing books side by side with no FACTS, If the old cert # was in the notes, it would solve this confusion! more notes on cert page would help too. Like, put in the notes: old cert #0071944001, now newly recognized as the Windy City. Maybe think about something like this going forward to prevent misunderstanding. The cert page should also show all previous times it was reholder with the previous picture with a note saying all 3 are the Windy City Marvel #1, recently recognized as the Windy City with that year. So many people are not aware that they both are the Windy City copy, and only recently was officially recognized as such. If the notes show each time it was reholder and "if" it's a changed grade the label should show the old cert# in the notes, then it would not cause people to freak out thinking some evil plot is afoot or it was swapped, when if you could just read original was 8.5 with the picture, the 9.0 with reholder with picture, and the 9.4 with picture noting NOW officially recognized as Windy City pedigree. Just because I, and many others here were aware of this, we are the fringe comic freaks, doesn't mean everyone is, the lack of transparency is working AGAINST CGC right here in a simple picture, so people might never find out if they don't read everything and continue to think it's some kind of shenanigans and hurts the hobby, and this is an easy fix with more notes on the labels and cert lookup. Also what is the reason for the cert# change when the grade changes after cleaning pressing? I might be missing something but keeping the same cert# would seem to be better, thus keeping the lineage. Same book same cert, new cert makes it seem like a new book when it's not, old pictures old sales will cause confusion....So more notes, more pictures, notes on holder with old cert# will help CGC as much as us. I don't know, I just think a few things need to be brainstormed to make things safer and with less confusion, and in the case of a huge book like this, I think it's vitally important to avoid people thinking it's a scam.

It's not going to die here, but this is us oddballs, the majority are already over it, just look at the auction results, nobody has stopped buying, some things are even moving up! But you and I both agree we HAVE to get those cert images, whatever they have, and I'll keep saying it....I hope people join in...keep the original slab image when you reholder! have both images up! otherwise whats the point? it could be a reholder mistake again or any other mistake, don't leave anything up to the imagination, give the entire history of slabbing and reholdering! Also I think the PR has to wait until after the cases, I think after the YouTube interview the lid is SHUT, no talking until cases are won. But I love the idea you have of PR on tampering, IE what to look for, but honestly lots of people just don't worry or care like we do.

You are right, It's actually true! If you thought anything would kill a company or a hobby, look back over the card market! Auction houses closed, shill bidding, people in jail, conflicts with grading and said auction house, trimming, building up corners with paper fill, that then get graded somehow. They trimmed cards with serial numbers! and the got graded twice! photo evidence is insane. And one of the most high profile cards was altered, purchased by Gretzky not knowing this and it's legend now! Same altered card goes for more every time, millions, it hasn't really hurt anything they even want the altered card! scandals made the card hobby bigger. I love bringing up this stuff because I remember thinking oh no it's over! it wasn't. So older holder CGC books will still sell, it's just nothing compared to the card market, the new influx of fake card slabs is troubling, and will see that eventually, but there is always a tell, nothing is perfect. I still sell the old less secure PSA holder cards without the new improved holder and added security, even get higher prices people think the grading was better..LOL If we get images in the cert lookup, and reholder images while keeping the original up, it will fix 90% of the worry about older slabs.

Yeah, I hear that, the conflict is always there, usually works against buyers, in odd way that conflict might work in the buyers favor here! Sellers and CGC will be more willing to up the game if it means $$$ and happy confident buyer pays more, which makes CGC and sellers happy. No matter what, all of us are battling the scammers, and we do have a pretty good community of craz...umm passionate collectors!

Comiclink, Heritage, Comicconnect I will say are all very reputable in my experience. If you buy a CGC graded book, and it's fake, they are selling you the book, they are the responsible party because they are the seller. CGC was the one responsible in the reholder scam because CGC reholdered the books in legit cases. But CGC would not be responsible for a tampered holder in the wild, same with all graders, cards, coins, PSA PCGS etc.. they are not responsible for someone tampering or making compete fakes like some cards/coin slabs have been found. All of them are dealing with this, comics not as much as the cards or coins. But as far as I know not a single swap outside of the CGC reholder scam has "yet" to be sold through these companies, if it was found one did, they would investigate and I'm sure they would take care of it. So I believe they all back up what they sell. They certainly inspect what the sell, especially large $$ items (probably will inspect everything whole lot closer now!) I fully trust all of them 100% I have dealt with them all for well over 20 years, never an issue, I do lots of business with all of them. I am sure all the big players are going to want CGC to beef up security just as much as we do. I'm sure they would back up what I'm saying that it's a MUST to keep up all scans on the cert page, before reholder and after reholder, old and new images! And put any and all the images they have available, it will make a tremendous difference! They already started to some degree and it's great! Having both original and reholder images gives more confidence, higher prices, more people slabbing books! It's a battle, we all need to support each other! scammers must not win.

Agreed! your last part about scans is what I have been saying is vital, your are right on! But I don't think it's an option, it's a MUST on my checklist to keep up all scans, before reholder and after, old and new! And I'll give them time but they have to go through and put all the images they have, it will make a tremendous difference! And 100% right It's not only Impossible to cover people who buy counterfeit or tampered books, but no other authentication service does that, UNLESS it was done on their grounds, IE PSA has compensated me on certain issues they did like grading a fake card or damaged 10 I've been happy for the most part...now the grades, who is ever happy about that? so it's not 100% happy customers, lots of angry people toward all graders for everything. LOL So yeah CGC is covering the swaps that they did only, no way they would cover outside swaps, can you imagine, what would be the criteria? If they show me and I go yeah..see right there, I know this a swap, but johnny come lately is fooled, where would you draw the line on who is responsible? would there be a panel of judges? LOL. Scammers suck, so I don't just buy a comic/card or coin without doing the investigation, now anything below $300 you're pretty much safe, but a Hulk 181 or Jordan? I'm pulling out the magnifier, checking past sales, not buying a off a person in a dark parking lot, etc.. But could you imagine if they or others offered compensation if your just buy a holder that was manipulated or fake? I am 100% sure manufactures in china could actually produce holders nearly exact replicas security and all for PSA, CGC, PSGS, and put fakes in them. The new holders for cards coming out of china are crazy town, thankfully with the proper eye, there is still something that tips me off, and PSA did update security a few years ago, but it's a battle! PSA has not to my knowledge went after anyone, that is why I was surprised by CGC's move, and very happy someone in the authentication space is doing something! This is the big reason we are here pushing for MORE security, and we must have all slabbed books keep a complete photo trail, So when CGC reholders any book, they must leave the original slabbed photo up! ALL images MUST be retained and in the cert lookup! so an owner or buyer can see that his book matches those books, if you take down the original and just show the new reholder image, and this happened again or just a mistake happens, it will be noticed FAST, this would have stopped this problem long ago. This is the only way to go and slowly but surely ALL images of slabbed books need to surface in the cert lookup So now if my buyer see's no photo, and that disclaimer... well they are not going to be confident when other books do have images. We have a beautiful albeit dysfunctional "sometime" community in comics! We will grow, like it or not, big money brings bigger problems, but we will grow stronger together.

Yeah, I agree the time and leaving this open to more public involvement might have decreasing rewards. For what CGC is trying to do, they don't really need a criminal case in this situation although I'm not ruling anything out. When they win this case it will serve as a strong precedent going forward. Going after the scammer in a criminal case later would be interesting, and I might tend to think the case against the employees would more likely follow into a criminal case targeting just the theft of the books, that could have benefits. I'm just glad someone did anything, PSA is having it's cases counterfeited and I see them doing nothing? it's really hurting the hobby! And the coin graders also have been plagued with fake holders, they seemingly do nothing? So seeing any further actions legally will not shock me, I never thought they would go this far!

That's exactly what I was saying, I was amazed at such baloney, Yeah, they put the onus on the plaintiff, but to compare it to the Charbucks case? might be the worst example they could use and the easiest to prove CGC's case. People clearly thought they were buying a CGC universal graded book, it actually says that, then tell them the book is not what was graded, all would say I was duped! Hand people the cup of charbucks and all of them would say I'm buying a cup of charbucks from Wolfe’s Borough Coffee, Oh you don't think it's Starbucks? Now if it was their coffee in a Starbucks cup? Case closed Starbucks wins. I'm sure there are hundreds of better cases to use as an example, this was puzzler, not one part of that case is similar or helps the defense.

What is this garbage??? this is part of the defense? LOL To prevail on a trademark infringement and counterfeiting claim, CGC must establish that its marks are protected and that Mr. Zanello’s “use of the allegedly infringing mark would likely cause confusion as to the origin or sponsorship.” Starbucks Corp. v. Wolfe’s Borough Coffee, Inc., 588 F.3d 97, 114 (2d Cir. 2009). “‘The crucial issue in an action for trademark infringement’ is whether there is a ‘likelihood that an appreciable number of ordinarily prudent purchasers are likely to be misled’ or ‘confused’ as to a product source.” What? This is not even close, scammer was not producing his own holder and trademark and calling it say CeGeCe It's absolutely nothing like the Charbucks case NOTHING, they were not using actual "Starbucks" containers, is this a joke? of course the people thought is was CGC graded book and of course they were misled!, it was in the actual CGC holder!! are they serious I could drive a truck through this attempt. Nobody thought yeah, this is not a CGC book, this just Zanello's book, like they did with Charbucks, most people actual did not think they were buying Starbucks coffee...lol, EVERYONE thought they were buying the actual graded CGC book...EVERYONE, complete 100% misled. Scammer was stealing the actual real product from the actual case and passing off his own book in it! He is not some entrepreneur making something "like" the product and maybe confusing people with it, the scammer confused everyone. He USED the actual CGC Trademark LOL, and the actual CGC holder...let me see, it's like going into Starbucks getting a coffee and replacing the coffee with his own coffee after drinking the original coffee, then selling his coffee in the actual Starbucks cup calling it Starbucks coffee, which it is not. He's not making a holder or even using his own label with a name close to CGC, he's using the actual product to sell his product! Cause confusion? it's the exact same trademarked CGC name and the actual CGC holder! LOL nothing even close to this......Plaintiff Starbucks sued defendant Black Bear to enjoin it from using its "Mister Charbucks," "Mr. Charbucks," and "Charbucks Blend" marks Maybe If the defendant here actually used the name Starbucks, and actually used the Starbucks container, then it would have been the same. If CGC loses this one..

The scammers lawyer is quoting the youtube interview. I didn't think that interview helped CGC's image and did nothing to help the case, it's tough, you want to say things but they should not have done it. It's nothing terrible to the case but it didn't help either so I'm betting we will not hear anything more until the cases are over. We are not going to hear about new security or holders to stop these clowns, or anything more about the list. The list is important to find the books in question, but a better way would have been to then keep it private between the owners until the case is over.

I think we might be going off the rails and we are in the weeds, this book is not a problem, it's not a scam, or a swap, and the owner can look at the wrinkle and decide if he thinks it's still a 9.4, it is one of the top 2 copies ever. The Windy City Marvel #1 was in fact not trimmed, the photo is an illusion with the shadow at the top, zoom in and use the high res images, it's obvious. Also it was not color touched, look at the original. And it was and still is a wrinkle even if now it's probably hanging on by threads after the Hulk smashing it. If we saw it in person I know you could still see the roughness of the wrinkle so we can debate all day if it's a 9.4 with that roughness but it's labeled a 9.4 now and that's it. So it was FACT cleaned like CRAZY a few times, pressed, Pressed..PRESSED until it couldn't be pressed no more, and the only thing that is sad is the original owner did not take part in this huge payday. Given a half a million of extra money, we ALL would press and clean the freaking life out of this book if we were going to sell it.