RockMyAmadeus

I almost bought it...almost.

The excellence of this run cannot be overstated. It is John Byrne at his absolute best. Man of Steel is fantastic, his Superman run is good, and Alpha was also quite good...but this is where John Byrne put his heart and soul, and it shows. He loved these characters, and he created what can arguably be called the best long run of Marvel books in the early/mid 80s...and yes, I'm saying it's better than X-Men, because it is. If you have not read FF #232-292, I cannot recommend it highly enough. You will not be disappointed.

I remember that purchase. It was quite the buy. $100, right?

By the way...I imagine it is functionally impossible to go to a convention and be totally unaware of the existence of slabbing in 2018. However... I believe it is not only possible, but is, in fact, likely, that one could visit any number of local comic stores around the world, and never see a single slab, ever. Why? Lots of theories, but the main one is that store owners don't want to have their customers question their grading, and a CGC slab can do that quite effectively, simply by its mere presence. And while that may not be true of most retailers, it is most certainly true of some. It's just not something that retailers get into. It's most certainly mainly an online phenomenon, followed by conventions.

1-5% is my own estimate, from being on convention floors 15-20 times a year, and dealing with CGC on a regular basis. I see a few dealers with no CGC books, but most dealers I see have some, while a handful have mostly. I've rarely seen any dealer with nothing but slabs, but they do occasionally exist. I set up at a convention once with nothing but slabs, about 10 boxes of hardcovers, and a single short box of raw books. I don't use print run estimates or census numbers to gauge CGC participation, as those numbers fluctuate wildly. And I don't refer to single books in that estimate. I mean "of the percentage of back issues sold to, and/or dollars spent by, collectors." Obviously, 99.9% (or more) of new issues aren't being slabbed, and perhaps 50-99% of new issues are sold to readers, not collectors. And as I mentioned, that number could be much, much lower, and probably is.

That's an argument I use all the time. The total print run, according to Jim Lee, of X-Men #1 was ~8.2 million copies, of all flavors. That's just a single book. There are BILLIONS of comic books in existence.

It's not that "no one outside the CGC Forum much cares" (which is debatable), it's that few outside the CGC forum know. But it's not even that. A book doesn't become valueless inside a PGX case. It's not about the case, and never has been. It's about the book inside. When a "graded" book like X-Men #1 sells for HALF what a CGC graded book in the same "grade" sells for...then the market very much does understand who and what PGX really is. PGX is still in the marketplace because comic books themselves are still in the marketplace. If I'm offered an X-Men #1 that happens to be in a PGX case, I'm not going to reject it just because of the case. I'll examine it, offer what I think is fair for the grade I think it is, and that's that. I will then crack the ever living snot out of that case, examine it for myself completely, and potentially see what CGC has to say. After all...I don't lose my sight when examining a PGX slab...I just treat it as if it's a raw book, and act accordingly. So, I imagine, does anyone else. Again: it's not about people not caring, so much as not being aware.

Also something that needs to be remembered. Although graded books are often the flashiest, most valuable ones, grading represents PERHAPS 1-5% of the entire market for comic books. And even that estimate that could be a much larger number than actually exists.

The problem with this thread and its premise is that it indirectly implies that PGX is a legitimate competitor to CGC. It is not. PGX has a documented history of fraud and collusion, going back well over a decade, and which has not changed with the passage of time. It's not about the ability to grade. It's never been about the ability to grade, as grading is subjective. It's about the fact that PGX has routinely and consistently engaged in illegal and fraudulent behavior, and I defy Daniel Patterson to take me to court over my allegation. These are very serious allegations, and I am well aware of the very serious potential consequences of my public statements if I have misrepresented or mischaracterized PGX and/or its owner, Daniel Patterson. http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/ That's just the start. For those interested, what I believe is the relevant statute is found here: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/164.085 2017 ORS 164.085¹ Theft by deception: (1)A person, who obtains property of another thereby, commits theft by deception when, with intent to defraud, the person: (a)Creates or confirms another’s false impression of law, value, intention or other state of mind that the actor does not believe to be true; (b)Fails to correct a false impression that the person previously created or confirmed; (c)Prevents another from acquiring information pertinent to the disposition of the property involved; It is my opinion that the activities described in the site linked above, as well as numerous other examples, clearly demonstrates theft by deception on PGX' part. By characterizing restored books as unrestored, AND digitally attempting to "cover up" such deception (it's always the cover up that does you in), they have knowingly created a false impression of value in the minds of the customers of PGX slabs. PGX should not be judged on their ability to grade, but should be rejected because it and he have proven themselves unworthy of even basic trust. It is also my opinion that buying PGX books is the same as buying raw books, with the same right to inspection as anything else purchased over the internet and that, despite the opinions of some, a "slabbed comic" does NOT represent a whole unit or product, but rather represents an item with value, ie, the comic itself, to which is attached an appraisal of condition, and the buyer is not violating any sort of contractual agreement of any kind by removing the attached appraisal (that is, the slab), and having it appraised by another company who also engages in such appraisals for a fee. In other words: if you sell me a PGX book, and I crack it and have it submitted to CGC, and they find a defect that is materially different (not merely a subjective difference of opinion as to its condition), then I retain all right of return of that item, even though it has been removed from its PGX case, because that case is not a product that has any value in and of itself...it's just the container to discourage the use of that specific opinion for that specific item on another item of lesser condition. And...I believe if it ever reached a court of law, that court would find precisely the same thing: a slab does not create a "new product" which must be returned intact for the buyer to be made whole, but is merely an appraisal, and the buyer has a right to seek an independent appraisal of his or her own, without forfeiting his rights in the process. In any event...long story short, PGX's grading ability is utterly insignificant relative to their fraudulent and unethical behavior since their founding. Each PGX slab should be treated exactly as a raw book, and examined as diligently as anyone would a raw example.

One of the most poignant moments I have ever read in comics was the last panel of FF #267. Comics aren't just for kids...? Damn right they aren't.

Two.

I have never seen a "bagged" book, that had a heat seal, that didn't have some sort of indentation on the back cover that would have prevented a 9.8 straight out of the bag, and I have owned thousands of bagged comics (including a full case...150 copies....of Darker Image #1 Gold, all bagged, all of which had some level of indentation on the back cover.) The number of unpressed 9.8s coming out of a bagged comic more than a few days or weeks after production is, in my estimation, so small as to be statistically null. Any such book, outside of the few that were unbagged immediately upon publication (and maybe not even then), and preserved properly, would need a press to achieve 9.8.

The irony of "be fair" should not be missed, but if we're truly trying to "be fair", it must be noted that CGC's official statement about their "Crystal-clear display" is a reference to the clarity of the new holder...not the presence or absence of Newton rings. The clarity of the new holder is, in fact, a substantial and evident improvement over the old holder, immediately obvious when holding the two in hand and comparing. The Newton rings will certainly affect the presentation of the book, but the clarity of the plastic is not hindered by them. In the interest of fairness, if that's really the goal....

Her children were literally starving to death...?

You're not that far behind, gramps. ...but I'm not catching up! Only in a time machine....

You're not that far behind, gramps.

X-Force 1 and countless others don't have a similar affliction? Yes, they do.

Good gravy. 30 years next August for me. Picked up my first comics as a collector, inspired by the Batman movie.

I wonder whatever happened to that 40YrsCollctng guy...?

Not an issue. Pre-screened books that fail aren't slabbed, and thus, don't need notes.

I was very annoyed, because it forced me to buy at least two copies...one to keep "mint in the bag!", and the other to actually open and read. It nearly caused a panic attack to actually OPEN a Superman #75 to see what was inside. "You're RUINING IT!!"

So, bagged "by the manufacturer" comics were introduced in the very late 80s...think "Black Kiss", or "Uncensored Mouse"...but they really took off when Spiderman #1 was introduced with special bagged variants in June of 1990, unannounced to retailers. That soon followed with other examples, from Uncanny X-Men #294-296, X-Force #1, Darker Image #1, to Superman #75, and many more. At the time, the prevailing wisdom was that buyers had to keep the bag perfectly intact, or the "condition would be ruined." An opened bagged was tantamount to throwing it in the trash, fit only for recycling. For the purest of collecting purposes, the bag HAD to remain sealed, or it would be rejected as inferior. Nobody ever considered the impact that the inclusion of various oddly shaped, hard edged items..like cards...or the heat seal of the bag itself. Fast forward 20 years, and all of these books...literally every book published with a manufactured bag and heat seal...have been damaged by the uneven pressure exerted by that seal over the ensuing decades. The only salvation for those books in ultra high grade was the people who opened those bags, carefully took the comics inside out, and stored them properly. Those didn't have time to develop the problems that the "still in the original plastic, mint condition!!" copies have today, that have to be, at a minimum, pressed to remove those indentations...if they can be, and if the heat seal wasn't set a bit too high, to take off some of the ink of the cover below it. My 20 year old self laughs at my 46 year old self.

No. Bagged, and every copy will exhibit the heat seal seam to one degree or another that has to be pressed out. Isn't that the funniest of ironies...?

Thank you for your reply. Keep in mind, it takes a lot less time to deal with a few seconds to write a note than it does the time it takes to deal with a review, regardless of the outcome of said review. And, of course, no one's perfect, and we all make mistakes, whether I, the submitter, missed something, or the grader(s) thought too harshly of a particular flaw..Consider the time it took just to read and reply to this post, here. It adds up. It's an easy fix to add 5 cents worth of time here, to avoid paying 50 cents in time down the line (which may not be as obvious), so keep up the effort.