RockMyAmadeus

Always love a person who makes his own interpretation out to be facts. Facts: Cerebus #1 sales, as recorded at GPA... ( 9.4 ) - - (1) $9,000 - $9,000 Mar-2014 ( 9.4 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $7,768 Feb-2010 2009 (1) $7,754Hi 2004 (1) $10,600Hi Total books sold: 3. Hi/Low price recorded: $10,600/$7,754 ( 9.2 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $2,136 Nov-2005 These are facts, established and recorded. Do you dispute these facts? Because these are the facts to which I refer, not my opinion. Please try not to be so easily offended, and ask before assuming an incorrect interpretation of what someone else has written. My "no" was not about Jaydog's understanding of your original post, but rather that it is "only in Overstreet" that such a conclusion can be reached. My apologies for not cutting out the phrase " I think that's in line with the OP's original point too;" which led to your misunderstanding my post. You make the mistake of assuming I am arguing out of passion...perhaps because that is all you know? I do not argue out of passion, but out of reason, regardless of my personal feelings about both books. When you change the parameters of the original premise, and then use that to argue that the original premise is therefore wrong, that's irrational. That's precisely what has happened here. I'm sorry that you are offended by this, but that doesn't change the fact that your position...that Cerebus #1 is only more valuable according to Overstreet, and that itself is an unreasonable conclusion for Overstreet to draw...is invalid. All righty then found your post and I'm quoting it again here for quick reference. So a cerebus 1, 9.4 sold for $10,600 in 2004. And $9000 in 2014. That's a 15% drop in value in its top grade in 10 years. -J. Read it again.

Just this one point: you are factually incorrect. This is not true. It is false information. It is not correct. It is documented that this is not correct. And that's just one point. Stop, Jaydog. Just stop. Show us the documents. Or are you now disavowing the very GPA data you earlier cited ? -J. Read it again.

Just this one point: you are factually incorrect. This is not true. It is false information. It is not correct. It is documented that this is not correct. And that's just one point. Stop, Jaydog. Just stop.

And keep in mind... not all sales are listed on GPA, even from the auction houses. This would be higher than anything on GPA for the book in 8.5, listed in July and already sold: Chuck, dude, seriously. You're obviously a HUGE fan of Cerebus but try to at least have some air of objectivity: THIS is the most recent, publicly available closed sale of a Cerebus 1, 8.5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 THIS is the most recent, publicly available closed sale of a Hulk 181, 8.5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-1st-app-Wolverine-CGC-8-5-VF-Marvel-Comics-1974-/360905693614?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5407a7d9ae Even if that Comiclink sale goes through, Hulk 181 still blows it out of the water at that grade. THIS is the most recent, publicly available sale for a Hulk 181, 9.0: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-0-OW-1st-Appearance-of-Wolverine-of-the-X-Men-/231302168936?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35daaf0168 When was the last time a Cerebus 1, 9.0 blue went for that? Oh, right. And you're STILL trying to have your cake and eat it too, dismissing the new high sale of hulk 181 9.2 because you can find one "any day of the week", and then merely SPECULATING on what a scarcer 9.2 Cerebus 1 would go for now (in its favor of course), BECAUSE NO 9.2 CEREBUS 1 HAS EVER SOLD ANYWHERE CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF THAT HULK 181 9.2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 Oh, and just for the hell of it...why don't you tell me how many Hulk 181 9.2's are available right now on ebay? Comic link.....? comic connect....? mycomicshop.....? On these boards.....? What's that you say? NONE? Really Chuck? For a "common" book in any grade I can find any day of the week, you mean to tell me that today, on a Saturday there actually ISN'T one available in a 9.2? You think THAT might have something to do with why the buyer decided to pull the trigger at that price? Supply and demand, right? Just like you state for the cerebus 1. And what about this rampant speculation that you are employing, based on absolutely no data points whatsoever, that a 9.2 cerebus 1 could sniff 3K right now? Surely with inflation it would get that at an auction now right? The fact that a 9.4 cerebus 1 has DECREASED in value about 15% in the last 10 years (as another poster has noted) is very strong circumstantial evidence to suggest "No". Where an 8.5 is closing at right now suggests "No". The fact that a 9.0 has never even hit $2,000 suggests "No". Please do tell me, what publicly available sales data are you using that tells you otherwise? Or is it just "wishful thinking"? Why let facts and actual sales figures get in the way of the myth you want to perpetuate about this book, right? Do you have some copies you want to sell soon or something? You keep talking about which book a dealer would buy if they had $500 to spend. What does that have to do with anything? This thread was started because the OP thought it was ridiculous for cerebus to be called "more valuable" by Overstreet on his BA list. And it IS ridiculous. Patently ridiculous. I have never disputed that a cerebus 1 9.4 has sold for more than a hulk 181 9.4. That is the only thing you have said that has been accurate and supported by verifiable sales data. And my response to that has always been that a small print run book with literally only a handful of copies available in its respective top grade (cerebus 1)outselling another far more mainstream book, with 80X more copies available in that one grade (hulk 181, and not even its top grade, or second top grade, or third top grade) is not a "real world" way to determine that said book is "more valuable" than the other. It just isn't. Overstreet needs to revise his criteria, because that is simply laughable. Especially when the other book, as the most recent publicly available sales indicate, OUT PERFORMS IT IN EVERY SINGLE OTHER GRADE. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is what it is. -J. No one said Cerebus 1 out performs IH181 in 8.5. Why are you arguing that point. It's comical. As far as high grade, it comes down to this: Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. Why? Because it would make them more money. It's more VALUABLE. You can't dispute this, but it proves the fact. You IGNORE this, because it proves the fact. No matter WHAT theory you concoct in your head, the BOTTOM line, REAL WORLD application of ANY of this is: Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. And any national dealer that I've talked to that's seen this thread has laughed at your inability to understand this and you're intellectual dishonesty in trying to add different parameters to the discussion. REAL WORLD: Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. Game over. It's more valuable on the market, which means it's more valuable. THAT's the only thing anyone has argued with you. All this other stuff you're inventing in your head is just silly. Seriously. You have no idea how bad you're embarrassing yourself at your lack of understanding of how the market really works. All of this, too. Very disappointing. Jaydog, just out of curiosity...how old are you?

And keep in mind... not all sales are listed on GPA, even from the auction houses. This would be higher than anything on GPA for the book in 8.5, listed in July and already sold: Chuck, dude, seriously. You're obviously a HUGE fan of Cerebus but try to at least have some air of objectivity: THIS is the most recent, publicly available closed sale of a Cerebus 1, 8.5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 THIS is the most recent, publicly available closed sale of a Hulk 181, 8.5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-1st-app-Wolverine-CGC-8-5-VF-Marvel-Comics-1974-/360905693614?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5407a7d9ae Even if that Comiclink sale goes through, Hulk 181 still blows it out of the water at that grade. THIS is the most recent, publicly available sale for a Hulk 181, 9.0: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-0-OW-1st-Appearance-of-Wolverine-of-the-X-Men-/231302168936?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item35daaf0168 When was the last time a Cerebus 1, 9.0 blue went for that? Oh, right. And you're STILL trying to have your cake and eat it too, dismissing the new high sale of hulk 181 9.2 because you can find one "any day of the week", and then merely SPECULATING on what a scarcer 9.2 Cerebus 1 would go for now (in its favor of course), BECAUSE NO 9.2 CEREBUS 1 HAS EVER SOLD ANYWHERE CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF THAT HULK 181 9.2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 Oh, and just for the hell of it...why don't you tell me how many Hulk 181 9.2's are available right now on ebay? Comic link.....? comic connect....? mycomicshop.....? On these boards.....? What's that you say? NONE? Really Chuck? For a "common" book in any grade I can find any day of the week, you mean to tell me that today, on a Saturday there actually ISN'T one available in a 9.2? You think THAT might have something to do with why the buyer decided to pull the trigger at that price? Supply and demand, right? Just like you state for the cerebus 1. And what about this rampant speculation that you are employing, based on absolutely no data points whatsoever, that a 9.2 cerebus 1 could sniff 3K right now? Surely with inflation it would get that at an auction now right? The fact that a 9.4 cerebus 1 has DECREASED in value about 15% in the last 10 years (as another poster has noted) is very strong circumstantial evidence to suggest "No". Where an 8.5 is closing at right now suggests "No". The fact that a 9.0 has never even hit $2,000 suggests "No". Please do tell me, what publicly available sales data are you using that tells you otherwise? Or is it just "wishful thinking"? Why let facts and actual sales figures get in the way of the myth you want to perpetuate about this book, right? Do you have some copies you want to sell soon or something? You keep talking about which book a dealer would buy if they had $500 to spend. What does that have to do with anything? This thread was started because the OP thought it was ridiculous for cerebus to be called "more valuable" by Overstreet on his BA list. And it IS ridiculous. Patently ridiculous. I have never disputed that a cerebus 1 9.4 has sold for more than a hulk 181 9.4. That is the only thing you have said that has been accurate and supported by verifiable sales data. And my response to that has always been that a small print run book with literally only a handful of copies available in its respective top grade (cerebus 1)outselling another far more mainstream book, with 80X more copies available in that one grade (hulk 181, and not even its top grade, or second top grade, or third top grade) is not a "real world" way to determine that said book is "more valuable" than the other. It just isn't. Overstreet needs to revise his criteria, because that is simply laughable. Especially when the other book, as the most recent publicly available sales indicate, OUT PERFORMS IT IN EVERY SINGLE OTHER GRADE. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, it is what it is. -J. You do not debate reasonably, your arguments are made from emotion rather than reason, you get nearly all of your information wrong or muddled, and you accuse others of the very bias that you won't admit. Very disappointing.

I'm real happy for you, Ima let you finish, but Hulk #181 is one of the best comics of ALL TIME.

Did you think up this on your own? Yes.

Your numbers are incorrect. Conclusions based on those numbers are necessarily flawed. If they're wrong, show me the correct numbers HAL. I already did, Kanye.

So we should use the sale of raw books as a sample? There you are! I was worried!

Bueller? Bronzejonny? Bueller?

Your numbers are incorrect. Conclusions based on those numbers are necessarily flawed.

And all it took was a stubbornly irrational misunderstanding of Overstreet's Top 10 Bronze Age list!

And you are an irrational condescender. Now that we've labeled each other, what good does that do? What's this? Do I sense emotion HAL? Robot...RMA...must...deny...emotion. (Say that with a 50's robot voice, to get the full effect.) There you go, I'm glad you're laughing again. All that sulking was really getting me down.

Hard to argue with that.

And you are an irrational condescender. Now that we've labeled each other, what good does that do? What's this? Do I sense emotion HAL? Robot...RMA...must...deny...emotion. (Say that with a 50's robot voice, to get the full effect.)

Yes, but we've reached the limits to quote nesting, so you'll have to delete some of it, or it will get confusing.

And you are an irrational condescender. Now that we've labeled each other, what good does that do?

Oh, is that what we're doing? Some of us have to work for a living....

Right, because questions can't be framed dismissively, then.... I apologize for all the apologizing. Those responsible for the apologizing have apologized, and apologize for any further apologies.

What is logical about What Ifs? If I my skeleton was made of platinum, would you kill me to get it? The "logical" answer is, of course, "Hell yes!" I mean, come on! It's a skeleton made of PLATINUM! That's gotta be worth millions! 10.000 copies...despite not even existing in the first place for Cerebus...in one hand would change the dynamics of the market for those books. You think the obvious answer is "Hulk #181." But you think only in terms of the market as it stands right now. Flooding it with 10,000 copies would cause serious convulsions. And very few people have the space to hold 10,000 slabs of anything. Slabs take up a TREMENDOUS amount of space.

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation. If you read what I said, you would know that I do not insist H181 is more valuable. But I think it is wrong to claim that Cerebus is more valuable than H181. It may be possible to make an argument that it is more worth at a few grades, while H181 is more valuable at other grades. Uh... THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING. It's jaydog who disagrees. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. JIMMINY FREAKING CHRISTMAS. How many times does it have to be repeated? NO ONE HAS SAID THAT. jaydog is ARGUEING it, but NO ONE IS SAYING IT. No. Here's your real world proof, that you even POINTED OUT that I've repeated 3 times prior: Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. That's REAL WORLD PROOF. Doesn't matter what Aliens or Snails or BMW or Toyotas THINK.... Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500. WHY? Because. It. Is. MORE. Valuable. Debate THEORY all you want. THERE... is.... PROOF. That is NOT what is being debated. Who the hell knows? What if I could shoot Cerebus #1's out of my butt? Who cares? That's NOT what is being debated or discussed. Who knows. I could care less. I want to know... what I should buy and what I shouldn't buy based upon REAL WORLD FACTS. Not THEORY or Emotion.... What actually sells... well... in this instance we KNOW. ASK a national dealer. Anyone who has been selling for any amount of time has probably had one and sold it for MORE than guide. They'll TELL you... it's a book that commands a premium, and in high grade, DEMANDS a premium. It's not JUST OSPG, it's other REAL WORLD sales that are going on.... Hope you're enjoying the boards, it's not always this crazy,,, Chuck is SUPAH sexy when he gets riled up...

This is an accusation that is frequently made, and it doesn't ever hold much water. I don't remove anything from the posts, I simply respond to each point as it comes along. There is nothing "taken out of context", nor is anything misrepresented. If you believe there is, by all means, point it out. It seems like I am right, because I use methodical and structured reasoning, relying on empirical evidence, rather than my own personal feelings and biases, to reach the conclusions I do. Instead of complaining about my method, why not refute me using methodical, structured reasoning, relying on empirical evidence? I am perfectly willing to learn, from whatever source the learning comes from. Are you....? Again...instead of complaining about how I debate, why not confine yourself to methodical, structured reasoning, relying on empirical evidence, to make your points? Is it because you discover that your point doesn't hold up to scrutiny, but you're too proud to admit it, like many around here...? That's simple pride. I am happy to discard concepts, idea, and information that are found to be wrong. Are you...? Have a good night, and see you next time.

You have an odd definition of the word "bragging." Also, your page counts are off. Don't take it personally. "lol"

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? "What you collect sucks! What I collect RULES!!!" I don't have a problem with that. Hulk 181 along with GS X-Men 1 had such a tremendous impact on the history of the American Comic Book. The next 3 decades were dominated by the Mutants. And Wolverine stood as he does now, at the top of this age. Very easy to say what you don't have SUX,, but you can't say this particular book SUX. The fact that you prefer any book to Hulk 181 is your right but you can't say Wolverine's first appearance SUX just like you can't say the Spidey's first app. SUX too. There are quotation marks for a reason. YOU are the one saying "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules!!, not I, which is the attitude you are displaying. I respect whatever someone is interested in collecting, and I give preference to those collectors who seek the truly scarce, difficult to obtain books. I have owned multiple Hulk #181s. I have never even SEEN a Scooby Doo #1 35 cent variant in person. See Oakman's sig line for further info. Hulk #181? Crowning achievement? The Bronze Age equivalent to playing T-Ball? No thanks. I've got far bigger Detective Comics #27s to fry. Don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said. You really amuse me. And please don't apologize again. I can't stop laughing. I didn't. That's what you said. "So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you?" That translates into "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules." You said it, I didn't. The answer is quite obviously yes. Not everyone sees Hulk #181 as you do. And that's perfectly fine and wonderful. If everyone viewed Hulk #181 the way you do, it would be unobtainable for all except the richest, and everything else would be worthless. You really are quite dismissive of those with whom you don't agree, aren't you? I'm sorry if that confuses you. Oops. I'm sorry for apologizing. Drat, did it again.