RockMyAmadeus

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation. If you read what I said, I did read what you said. Unlike some, I don't dishonor those I speak with by not even bothering to read what they write. That's rude. I simply disagree with you. The question is not, and has never been, which is more valuable in all grades. The question has always been "which is more valuable according to Overstreet in the highest grade OPG reports?", which morphed into which one is more valuable in the highest grades. There is no "perhaps" about it. It is documented as such. No, there's not. There was a sale, 5 months ago, of the book for $9,000. No Hulk #181 has sold in 9.4 U for even HALF that, and even the SS copies only come to a bit over $4,000. If the queen of England was your mother, would you be able to buy all the Hulk #181s you wanted? If, if, if, if. The sales of the book have all been between $7,000-$10,000 or thereabouts. Four sales, all substantially higher than any Hulk #181 in 9.4, ever. Why do you think the next sale might be half? Huh. How did I figure that out...? I must have used science.

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? I can get a Hulk 181 every day of the week. I'd take the Scooby even in vastly lower grade. Lets take an average BMW... and an average Toyota. Which one is more valuable? The BMW. Now, let's say someone found 10.000 more of each (or the companies decided to make 10.000 more of each..same thing) then .... which oen is now the more valuable? Obviously still the BMW... it is just a better and more valuable car.. right? Now... Let's say someone found 10.000 H181s and 10.000 Scooby 1s...(all in 9.4 grade) As a dealer.... which load would you buy? The 10.000 IH181s.. or the 10.000 Scooby 1s? Think like a businessman....which one...? You're now comparing cars to comic books....? What if the moon was made of gold? Would you arrange a trip there to mine some?

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break. 2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless. ..As are one or two sales of a book with a miniscule print run every 10 years. You can't have it both ways Lazy. -J. Yes, you can. "have it both ways" (which is not really the case here ) You have to go with the data you have. The data you have on the Hulk #181 states that you are being quite unreasonable using the most extreme price the book has ever sold for in that grade as a valid example. You're right, I agree. We work with what we have. And right now, for a hulk 181, 9.2, that's what we have. We also have this now: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=incredible+hulk+181&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=1&LH_Sold=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=1000&_udhi=10000000&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sanli=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1 Look, there's a 7.0 that just broke $1000 for the first time, just four days after the new 9.2 high. That means that a hulk 181, 7.0 is now 15% more "valuable" than a cerebus 1, 8.5. According to our most recent sales data. -J. I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. Why do you hate Hulk #181, Dan? Honest question.

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? "What you collect sucks! What I collect RULES!!!" I don't have a problem with that. Hulk 181 along with GS X-Men 1 had such a tremendous impact on the history of the American Comic Book. The next 3 decades were dominated by the Mutants. And Wolverine stood as he does now, at the top of this age. Very easy to say what you don't have SUX,, but you can't say this particular book SUX. The fact that you prefer any book to Hulk 181 is your right but you can't say Wolverine's first appearance SUX just like you can't say the Spidey's first app. SUX too. There are quotation marks for a reason. YOU are the one saying "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules!!, not I, which is the attitude you are displaying. I respect whatever someone is interested in collecting, and I give preference to those collectors who seek the truly scarce, difficult to obtain books. I have owned multiple Hulk #181s. I have never even SEEN a Scooby Doo #1 35 cent variant in person. See Oakman's sig line for further info. Hulk #181? Crowning achievement? The Bronze Age equivalent to playing T-Ball? No thanks. I've got far bigger Detective Comics #27s to fry.

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical. And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up. Facts? We don't need no stinking facts. Okay I get it now...so we can use ONE sale of a cerebus 1 to determine a "trend", but hulk 181? Don't be ridiculous. -J. No, which is a point you have been missing since the beginning. You CANNOT use one sale of a Cerebus #1 to determine a trend. And no one has, except in your mind. What you CAN do, however, is use it to extrapolate what is POSSIBLE, based on other information. And extrapolating, comparing like with like, Cerebus #1 in 9.2 is going to be worth more than Hulk #181 9.2 at this time. With the Hulk #181, no extrapolation is necessary. You have more than enough information to paint a clear picture of its value in 9.2. You also CANNOT use the most extreme price that a 9.2 Hulk #181 has sold for, 30% higher than it has EVER sold for, as an "example." Extremes are not typical. You know that...right? I mean, right...? Oh okay. Riiiiiight I see what you're doing now. So you're COUNTING on some additional hulk 181 sales in a 9.2 to dilute the impact of this "record shattering" sale. Is that it? No. An 8,5 copy of Cerebus #1 is not the same thing as a 9.2 copy of Cerebus #1. You lack understanding of the dynamics of the census with regards to rare books.

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for... Apples and oranges. How many more were kept? And in nice condition? You mean, comparing the value of Spawn #1 with the B&W Spawn #1 is an apples and oranges comparison...? Yeah, the B/W issue is a different point. Imagine how expensive Spawn 1 (an important book, but insanely common) would be if only 2000 copies existed (all 1st prints combined) Ok, forget my example completely. It clearly was as irrelevant as comparing it to a slice of blueberry cheesecake. The better question is: imagine how UNimportant Spawn #1 would be if there had ONLY been 2,000 copies printed in the first place....

That is quite possibly the most UNscientific thing I have ever read on these board. Thank you, Alex.

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion. I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately. So would I So, you're ok with never having Hulk 181 in your collection? A variant is more significant to you? "What you collect sucks! What I collect RULES!!!"

He resents that anyone pays more money for Cerebus #1 in the same grade as Hulk #181. That's why he ignores it, and hopes to blur that point. Sales data doesn't lie. Cerebus #1 9.4 - $9,000. Hulk #181 9.4 - $3,350. Which one is worth more?

You have said that 3 times now. I'm not sure it can be disputed nor needs to be disputed. What I do know is that H181 is a vastly more important book (everyone seems to agree on this now), Now?? NOW??? You. Cannot. Compare. A. 9.4. To. A. 9.9. Again: You CANNOT compare a 9.4 of ANYTHING to a 9.9 of ANYTHING. It is NOT a valid comparison. Why do you dispute recorded facts?

Alexander, let's lay off the hyperbole, ok? It doesn't advance your position. No one "misunderstood" anything. The problem Jaydog has is that he is loose, like you, with the language. I can forgive you, as it seems like you are European, and English may not be your first language (I am perfectly happy to be corrected on this), but Jaydog has no such excuse. When someone says a book has "a boatload of chances at a 9.9", it shows that they don't really understand what makes 9.9 and 10 such freaks. Is it true generally that a higher print run gives a book more chances of obtaining a 9.9? Obviously. However..,print run alone is not the only determining factor on whether a particular issue has an actual chance of obtaining a 9.9 or 10. There are books with literally MILLIONS of copies printed, that will never, ever get a 9.9 or 10, because of the nature of the books themselves, and the 9.9 and 10 grades. Those books, which had far, far, FAR more copies printed than Hulk #181, have ZERO chance, much less a "boatload", of ever obtaining a 9.9 or 10 (X-Force #1, for example), under the current system at CGC. There are entire print runs worth of books that will never, and COULD never, obtain a 9.9 or 10, right off the presses. Those books had ZERO chance, ever, regardless of the size of their print runs. Conversely, there are books with 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 copy print runs that have multiple 9.9s and/or 10s, simply because of the way they were manufactured. Far, far lower print run...but an actual "boatload" more chance at 9.9s and 10s. Because print run alone isn't the determining factor. Got any other examples of my many mistakes...? Which school yard tactics would those be? The most logical answer is that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in grades 9.2 and above, because we have sales data to prove it. Why do you dispute that? It's cut and dried. It couldn't be clearer. Whatever sells for more is worth more. Why do you gents keep disputing this? There have been more What Ifs in this thread than the entire output of Marvel since 1977. What Ifs don't count. What if Hulk #181 was made of gold? What if Cerebus #1 was written by Thomas Jefferson? What if the Titanic hadn't sunk in 1912, but carried on as a passenger ship until 1977, when it happened to be carrying the entire print run of Cerebus, and it smashed into a giant monster named Mothra over the Sea of Japan and sunk? You have no idea what Cerebus #1 would be worth if it had the same number of copies extant as Hulk #181..claiming it would be worth the same as Thor #158 is complete and utter speculation, without foundation.

This. Put it another way... If you offer a dealer a Hulk #181 9.4 for $5,000...and a Cerebus #1 9.4 for $5,000....which one will sell for $5,000?

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright. That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value? I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely: When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information. Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so. With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture. We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it. I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong. That's an interesting conclusion, on both parts. You know nothing about me. How, then, do you conclude I am not "scientifically trained"? That analogy is really quite bad. I mean really, quite awful. We are talking about the value of comic books, and using sales prices of those comic books to make our points. Your analogy is grossly broad to be of any value. Sorry, but in the limited scope of what we're discussing, you are incorrect.

You said there needed to be a weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades. That would include a conclusion like "copy for copy, Hulk #181 is worth this basis" and "dollar for dollar, Hulk #181 is worth that basis." I see no such analysis, of any kind. You are an excellent propagandist, I'll grant you that. However...you need not worry about who is beating on whom. I appreciate your concern, but it is misplaced and unnecessary. You are an excellent propagandist. Propagandists know how to twist the language to mean something it didn't start out as. I didn't call you a troll. I said you were baiting, and borderline trolling, me for a response, which is accurate, and not the same thing. You sure do have a way with the language. By the way...I would think calling you an excellent propagandist would be far more insulting to you than calling you a "troll", but what do I know? Which is why I didn't call you a troll. I appreciate the flattery, but would far rather have reason. (thumbs u

Well, since you laid it out so easily, I guess I can answer a few points. You don't know how Overstreet gets his information, other than what he tells you. You are not Overstreet. This is what Overstreet says about how they gather information: "The resulting listings come through the observation and documentation of prices realized through hobby and trade shows, catalog sales, retail sales, and internet, live and mail-in auctions. Documented personal sales may also be included." You have a basic misunderstanding of the comic book market if you believe that the sales of SLABBED comics represents the entire market as a whole. GPA ONLY reports the sales of SLABBED comics. Overstreet prices are generally, for RAW (and ALL) comics, and, while they certainly take sales of slabs into consideration, one must realize that slabs account for only a SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE BOOKS SOLD (including Hulk #181s) ON A YEARLY BASIS. That is correct. It is speculation. Which is why neither you NOR I can say without a doubt either way which one is CURRENTLY more valuable in 9.2, which is the point you are missing. I don't agree with your estimate, and I have given you solid reasons as to why. Is your estimate as good, or better, than mine? Maybe, maybe not. How does one value a price estimation? Reputation, knowledge, reasonableness... That's your "crash"? Because more copies came onto the market, reducing what was an artificially high price, that's now a "crash"? And you give one grade? One grade decides that the market "crashed" for the book in ALL grades...? That doesn't sound quite right....I dunno... You made that up. I never said any such thing. I repeat: I never said any such thing. Once again: I never said any such thing. You make me repeat myself because you continue to do this. You cannot invent things, claim I said them, and then attack those positions. That's what we call a "straw-man argument." And...seriously, Jaydog, enough with the propaganda. The problem is you comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9. That is the problem. I didn't say that there isn't a premium paid for "the highest grade available." Of course there is. No one has said otherwise. The problem is you trying to compare 9.4 to 9.9. You continue to demonstrate...after I already explained it to you...that you do not know what the phrase "single highest grade" means. It means there is a SINGLE COPY IN THE HIGHEST GRADE. It does NOT mean "the highest grade, regardless of how many copies." The way you are using it is REDUNDANT (ALL grades are "single." There is only ONE grade level of 6.5, for example), and NOT the way the phrase is used in the vernacular. To communicate effectively, you must use the language correctly. Do not think this is trivial...it is, perhaps, the entire reason you are having such a problem with this discussion. Ok. How many times, and in how many ways, do you need to be told by me that Hulk #181 is one of the most important books ever published, and that it far outshines Cerebus #1 in importance? How many times, Jaydog? How can I say it, in such a way, that you finally absorb the fact that no one is disputing the importance of Hulk #181 over Cerebus #1? How many, Jaydog? Why do you keep bringing it up, when it is not under dispute? I know why you keep bringing it up: because you resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more VALUABLE than Hulk #181, and this doesn't sit well with you, considering how important Hulk #181 is. You resent it, so you must keep going back to the same trough: "It's more important, it's more important, it's MORRRRRRE IMPORTANNNNTTT!!!!!!" ....when no one has disputed that, in the tens of thousands of words posted in this thread. Until they look at the sales data.

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true. Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is. Why? Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed? What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so. If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue. There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter. And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values. Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0. There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks. So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...? And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height. No. It doesn't work that way. Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it. That's not what "single highest grade" means. That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade. A "boatload"? I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean. You just contradicted yourself in one breath. If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much. And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses. How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed? ~ ahem ~ Continuing on.... I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same "The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade." That is self-evidently false. You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done. This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument. "Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??" It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS. It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9. Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9. "Long after the book crashed"...? Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...? Really? This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8. In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1. I thought we established this pages ago. Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison. Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison. Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison. Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison. This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam. Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement. No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY. That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand." Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously. Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest. In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period. When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.) Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade. The numbers don't lie. I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this. Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this... 1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age. 2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850. 3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay. 4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now? So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)? Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level. You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it. But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181. -J. I've already addressed all of this, and you remain incorrect. There's really nothing more that can be said about ground already covered. I'm still waiting for your weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades. A diatribe against Cerebus #1 isn't a weighted analysis. I would like figures, in all grades, which is what an analysis is. Leave Cerebus #1 out of the picture, just focus on Hulk #181. I am still interested in this information, if you are willing and able to give it.

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break. 2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless. ..As are one or two sales of a book with a miniscule print run every 10 years. You can't have it both ways Lazy. -J. Yes, you can "have it both ways" (which is not really the case here ) You have to go with the data you have. The data you have on the Hulk #181 states that you are being quite unreasonable using the most extreme price the book has ever sold for in that grade as a valid example.

It's difficult to be restrained at times. It's as simple as this: "2 + 2 = 4" "Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5" "No, by definition, 2 + 2 = 4" "Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5, because I say so." What can you do with that? Can you persuade someone who refuses to understand to see reason? It can be intensely frustrating, knowing there are people out there who live only in emotion, illogic, and without reason, and more, who actively reject reason when confronted with it. I understand dictators. I'm currently reading "Adolf Hitler: A Study In Tyranny", by Alan Bullock, considered the quintessential biography of the man, and it's amazing what he has to say about democracy, twisted though his understanding was. Democracy only works when man is able to reason. If man is without reason, democracy is turned into a vicious joke, and the people are ruled by the tyranny of the majority. Did I just Godwin's Law this thread...?

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright. That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value? I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely: When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information. Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so. With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture. We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it.

This. I just filled in the details. I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me: If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions? To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?" It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been. Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake. You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online." And do you see the hyperbole you just used? "when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k" Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k? There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago. Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286. Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...? Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right.... -J. How is this relevant, in any way, to the point I was making? You may as well have said "Strawberry Shortcake #6 is a sexy comic", and it would have been as relevant. Why do you do this...? You asking why or saying something is "not relevant" is a convenient way of dodging the point and ignoring the implied relevance. -J. Right. I didn't realize we'd taken a turn into the Twilight Zone.:

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical. And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up. Facts? We don't need no stinking facts. Okay I get it now...so we can use ONE sale of a cerebus 1 to determine a "trend", but hulk 181? Don't be ridiculous. -J. No, which is a point you have been missing since the beginning. You CANNOT use one sale of a Cerebus #1 to determine a trend. And no one has, except in your mind. What you CAN do, however, is use it to extrapolate what is POSSIBLE, based on other information. And extrapolating, comparing like with like, Cerebus #1 in 9.2 is going to be worth more than Hulk #181 9.2 at this time. With the Hulk #181, no extrapolation is necessary. You have more than enough information to paint a clear picture of its value in 9.2. You also CANNOT use the most extreme price that a 9.2 Hulk #181 has sold for, 30% higher than it has EVER sold for, as an "example." Extremes are not typical. You know that...right? I mean, right...?

This. I just filled in the details. I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me: If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions? To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?" It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been. Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake. You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online." And do you see the hyperbole you just used? "when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k" Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k? There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago. Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286. Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...? Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right.... -J. How is this relevant, in any way, to the point I was making? You may as well have said "Strawberry Shortcake #6 is a sexy comic", and it would have been as relevant. Why do you do this...?

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Jay... that is bad form.... using facts..... Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical... That's a fact, alright.

Again, you're just wrong here. It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist. The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so. You may want to check your facts on that... http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this. And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post. -J. Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical. And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up. Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

That's not quite correct. The correct statement would be "with whom I am usually contrary for the sake of being contrary." :