RockMyAmadeus

Sufunk...part of the reason you're on ignore...and have gotten multiple strikes...is because you speak before you think...like you're doing now. And your Great Board FDQ "Exit" of 2011 was hardly "slight", "petty", or "perceived"... Come on, now. Don't be Sufunk again. You can do it, buddy! You better watch it. You're one step away from Phil's Parking Lot, Mister! Maybe I'm laughing witcha.. That's it! PHIL'S! TEN MINUTES!!! BRING BACK ISSUES!!!!

Sufunk...part of the reason you're on ignore...and have gotten multiple strikes...is because you speak before you think...like you're doing now. And your Great Board FDQ "Exit" of 2011 was hardly "slight", "petty", or "perceived"... Come on, now. Don't be Sufunk again. You can do it, buddy! You better watch it. You're one step away from Phil's Parking Lot, Mister!

PS...I didn't "get on my high horse" about selling to PL members. OTHER people brought it up. (thumbs u

Sufunk...you know that I've had you on ignore since your Great Board FDQ "Exit" of 2011. Did you forget? As for "why in the hell am I reading your posts": because you're talking to and about me. Pretty basic, no? No worries, when I'm not involved, I don't read 90% of what you post. What percent of my posts do you read? I suspect more than you read of mine.

Sufunk...part of the reason you're on ignore...and have gotten multiple strikes...is because you speak before you think...like you're doing now. And your Great Board FDQ "Exit" of 2011 was hardly "slight", "petty", or "perceived"... Come on, now. Don't be Sufunk again. You can do it, buddy!

Sufunk...you know that I've had you on ignore since your Great Board FDQ "Exit" of 2011. Did you forget? As for "why in the hell am I reading your posts": because you're talking to and about me. Pretty basic, no? No worries, when I'm not involved, I don't read 90% of what you post.

There is a difference, Sufunk, between considering PL members on a case-by-case basis, and disregarding the PL entirely. It may seem a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If the latter, I would agree with you. But it's the former. We don't throw out the american justice system just because some innocent people are convicted, and vice versa. We consider things on a case-by-case basis. The people WERE on the PL list though. And as I said before, not everyone on the PL deserved to be there. Um. Ok. Again: because the PL is flawed...not useless. That is an important distinction. Because it's not about selling the book or not selling the book. It's about warning people that "hey, kitsune took the book, then added terms after the fact, then ignored PMs, then tried to add more terms after the fact, then ultimately failed to pay after repeated promises to." That's what the PL is for...not forcing "positive transactions" (whatever that means.)

Yes, I am making this whole crazy debate up where you have stated a few things. DEMAGOGUE: a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power So you pretty much were saying there are a few that are using the PL/HOS to control the masses. That is simply not true. A stump speech to evoke emotions of outrage how the masses had no idea they were being controlled by a group that pulled the strings. Really? "difference between freedom and slavery"??!! In a PL/HOS thread on a comic book forum. Were you watching Braveheart today? I can't make this up. It is all true. And now it has gone so far off the rails, the discussion is actually painful to go back and read. Please. Have at it. Convince your friends how you have been personally wronged, attacked, and that there is some cabal out there controlling our destiny on this forum. Fantasy and reality has come to blend together in your head.

As stated before, I'm not trying to convince Bosco of anything (and ultimately, neither is he trying to convince me.) I'm countering his appeal to emotion so that those reading...if any...have a balanced point of view. This is the marketplace of ideas, and trying to persuade people who are unpersuadable isn't the point. It boils down to a simple idea: should people have the freedom to do as they will, or will they be coerced/manipulated/shamed into conformity to what others think is appropriate? I think, in that regard, the answer is clear. One of the biggest failings of this board is its tolerance for those who make discussion personal. Instead of discussing the merits of an issue, it invariably becomes about the people discussing it. This is a very serious problem, and will likely never be resolved, without serious will from many people. It is a common human condition, and unless vigorously spoken against, will always be a problem in any forum. To what extent...? Forever? Belligerently? By shaming and degradation? A person does not give up his/her legal rights by dealing with a person who has been a problem for others. Again...the discussion is not for Bosco...it's to counter what Bosco is saying to those reading, and I'm quite certain Bosco feels the same way. Time will tell which of us does a better job of persuading. Thus "moving it to PMs" won't happen, on either part.

There is a difference, Sufunk, between considering PL members on a case-by-case basis, and disregarding the PL entirely. It may seem a fine distinction, but it's an important one. If the latter, I would agree with you. But it's the former. We don't throw out the american justice system just because some innocent people are convicted, and vice versa. We consider things on a case-by-case basis.

Stating "difference between freedom and slavery" is over-the-top extreme and meant to evoke emotions from folks. Like they have to overthrow some cabal that has been controlling them unknowingly. That is not even within the range of reason. No, Bosco...for that is the end result of all dictatorial behavior. It is not "meant to evoke emotions" in people, other than those controlled by their emotions. Those who are ruled by reason understand that the end result of soft tyranny..."do what we say, or we will shame you!"...is hard tyranny...hard tyranny is slavery. Damn it. Broke my own statement. Again, Bosco, you cannot make things up out of thin air and then attribute them to me. I DO NOT, and HAVE NOT, allowed HOS members to buy from me, under any circumstances. And you are, again, mistaken. I offer to sell to PL members on a case by case basis, because the process is flawed....not useless. There is an important distinction that is lost on you.

Really...? This: ...is not a wall of text...? Really...? Come on. Awesomely patronising, cheers. Yes, that is a wall of text. I didn't go through every post the two/three of you had made to check who had posted what. Perhaps it would offend you less if we pretend the post of mine that you quote had said "generally not coming from you"? I value intellectual honesty above most things. You can have whatever reaction to me you'd like..I don't fault you for it at all...but let's be honest about it, as much as possible.

Really...? Where did I say there is "a small group attempting to control (people's)destiny"...? And even if I had said something like that, it would only achieve an emotional reaction from people controlled by their emotions. Those ruled by reason would recgnize that there are always people who attempt to exert control over others, in ways minute to grand, and always will be. This is a fact that most 5 year olds can tell you is true simply by observation. You can't just make things up out of thin air, Bosco, and then attribute them to me. That's not how honest debate works. No, that is the primary pupose of the PL/HOS, in that it is an attempt to help resolve troubled transactions with the assistance of the community. Working around that defeats the purpose. Without any emotion, or any statement that then leads you to assuming I am making an official statement from the throne (another emotion-driven point on your part), what are the end-state changes you would recommend that would achieve an ideal solution to address troubled transactions? This is indecipherable, so I'll just let you have the last word, as I know getting that makes you very happy. And who am I to deny anyone happiness...?

Really...? This: ...is not a wall of text...? Really...? Come on.

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery. You may not be aware of this, but I post very little besides silly memes and emoticons on this board now. If I was "trying to look smart", I certainly wouldn't be doing that. If something is painful for you to read, my advice would simply be to stop reading it.

5'8"? Pffft. I'm 6', baby!

Ahh the good old days. when the probation list served as a warning. when people were actually punished for being problematic traders. Now are the days of instant forgiveness if you just pay your way out, nothing more than strongarm tactic is what weve created. 3 years ago kitsune would be hung hi on probie list until the end of times unless he sincerely made an effort to make it right. Now he has infinite loop holes and half a forum of defense lawyers. I was involved in the making of the new rules as many of you were. Im not casting a stone that im unwilling to slug myself in the nuts with. We it up royally. But you have to admit... ...it was very well intended.

As much as you want it to be, it's not that black and white. My terms are quite clear: I will sell to members on the PL on a case by case basis, and they must pay PRIOR TO claiming anything. Just like the American justice system, each case is handled individually. Not everyone charged with (insert crime here) is guilty, nor is each case the same. That there are people on the PL, and even the HOS, because they simply got frustrated...rather than working it out, they just walked, is proof of that. Dan (what's her face's husband) is an excellent example of that. In my experience, he's not a bad guy...but he got such public drubbing, he said forget it. Doesn't make what he did right...not at all...but it's certainly not the same as, say, ComicSupply or CapFreak. There are very, very few people with the stomach for the high holy righteous wrath many of you are capable of, especially when you're in mob mode. We do not throw out the entire American justice system simply because the innocent are sometimes convicted, while the guilty sometimes go free. Are most of the people on the PL/HOS there because they deserve to be? Without a doubt. Are ALL of them? No. Which is why we consider things case by case, and do not apply monolithic "justice" to everyone with an issue. Kitsune, who absolutely without a doubt embodies the spirit of those who thumb their noses at the community and deserves to be on the list will not be...though with all this sturm and drang, I may reconsider not selling to him to see if he'll actually pay. I have my doubts. But he absolutely embodies the PL, but won't be on it. How many of you want to put me on th PL? Yet I have done nothing to merit it, according to its own rules (sorry, "unwritten rules" have no merit.) Ok so we are back on speaking terms... yay! If you let the guy finish the transaction, which every one from the Axis of Evil all the way the newly formed Alliance of Alternative Thinking Evil Villains understands is the initial use of the PL discussion thread... all this will be over. You get your money, he gets the book. Again a win-win. Flip that coin over... he DOESN'T pay you, you keep your book and place him on the PL. Another win-win for you. RMA you can quote every book from the Holy Bible all the way to current issue of Cosmopolitan... doesn't change the fact that you will get what you are entitled to by the PL Discussion Board by doing the bold type above. It is literally, physically painful to watch you twist logic into such a pretzel. Please, just stop.

You are debating the person, rather than the ideas. You don't know what my state of mind is, but claim you do. These are classic logical fallacies. Nope. And making that statement is irrational and disingenuous. It feels like if someone differs from your thinking, they must have a personal issue with you and the best approach is to twist it into that scenario. So oddly enough, it is what you claim others do to you when it comes down to just differing viewpoints. It was a question, not a statement. As well, there is nothing in that question that even remotely touches on the idea that "you disagree with me because you don't like me." I asked why you would deliberately mischaracterize my position, and if such deliberate mischaracterization was because you recognize the validity of that position....neither of which have anything to do with what I think you may think of me personally. "Anathema to you" doesn't have to mean "because you dislike me personally" (though, where you and I are concerned, that is definitely a worthwhile consideration) but can also include "because you are loathe to admit you are wrong about anything", which has nothing to do with me. Again, you keep trying to make this personal. Debate the ideas, not the person. I disagree with lots of people, and don't think that's because of a personal issue they have with me, or vice versa. That is the benefit of being ruled by reason, rather than emotion. In fact, that's my major beef with this board: there are far too many people, like yourself, who cannot separate the argument from the person, and often disagree for no other reason than they dislike the other person, and think that others disagree with them for the same reason. Hence, the King meme I posted several pages back. "It feels" means you are still arguing from emotion. Arguing from emotion is a very weak position from which to argue (though it quite obviously has appeal.) In your opinion. Meanwhile, reality is what I said is very much how the majority view things. That is correct...it is my opinion that appealing to emotion, rather than reason, is disingenuous, because it ultimately enslaves people to feelings, rather than logic. I know that you (and I'm not sure if it's a majority, but I'll consider it true for the sake of the argument) are correct: a lot of people today are swayed not by reason and logic, which is concrete, but by feelings and emotions, which are not. That is how demagogues obtain, and keep, power. "Won't someone PLEASE think of the fellow boardies, who are suffering, while you sit there with your grredy, ill-gotten gains at their expense... ...(nevermind that each case is unique, not every person on the PL/HOS deserves to be there, not every boardie has actually suffered, and treating every case the same is actually what is unjust)... ...you must FEEL for those suffering boardies, you greedy person, you!" By appealing to emotion, rather than reason. But, you see, in a free society, what I do is none of your business...and what you do is none of mine. I should be free to determine for myself whether my approach works for me or not, and free from the public pressure of those who disagree. That's what you're not grasping, because you don't believe in individual freedom. Again, another appeal to emotion. I have fought vigorously on behalf of those wronged on this board by others, a record of which is easily available. "Prove your loyalty!" is a classic device of the demagogue, and one which need not be answered, much like "have you stopped beating your wife?"

No, my dear Branget. Nothing has changed. Once this discussion runs its course, it's back to popcorn for me. So is leg breaking....

This is terribly frightening language. You don't "help" someone down a different path by FORCING them down it. What is "the leadership" of this community...? Was there an election? There is no leadership of this community with any actual authority other than CGC and its moderation team. All other "leadership" is self-appointed, and has no authority over that which is self-granted. This is not "leadership." Leaders lead by example, not by force. Those who lead by force are called tyrants. The real leaders of this community...and they do exist...are those who live by their convictions, do not force others to conform to them, and behave with honesty, integrity, gentleness, forebearance, and patience. They have moral authority...precisely because they don't force people to conform to their opinions. Here's a hint: neither of us are those people. Look at how you diminish and dismiss my statements by mischaracterizing them("free for all"...I never said anything like that) and saying things like "I think you are so busy giving the stump speech" etc. You're not debating the ideas...as I have done with your statements...you are debating me, the person. You are, I suspect deliberately, ignoring the fact that I said, not a few posts back, that we don't throw out the system just because it is flawed. I said BECAUSE it is flawed, cases need to be handled on an individual basis. You are decrying something...the apparent disolution of the PL...that I never once suggested, and, in fact, I have stated the OPPOSITE on multiple occasions. Why, then, would you state that...? Are you deliberately mischaracterizing my statements because you recognize the validity of my actual position, but doing so out loud would be anathema to you? How I would like things to be? I would like everyone to be free to do as they will, provided they don't harm anyone, free from personal public pressure by those who disagree. You oppose this? I didn't "forget" that this method has been successful. Public shaming is a powerful motivator. See Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" for an example of how effective it is. But is it moral...? And the intent...? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Again, issues that aren't part of the current discussion, but simply more appeals to emotion (subtext: "those greedy people who ignore the PL for their own enrichment, and while their fellow board members suffer!") They are disingenuous statements, to say the least.

This needs to be quoted, so it is not lost in the mix. Appealing to freedom and individual decision-making is the antonym of demagoguery. Appeals to emotion...and passionate appeals to reason...are two completely different things. And you have made a vital distinction, probably without being aware of it: "following community norms." That is, voluntarily, of one's own free will, choosing to do what the community has deemed is appropriate... ...which is different from being forced to by public pressure, or worse. One is freedom. The other is tyranny. I highly recommend Democracy in America, by Alexis de Tocqueville, for better explanations of these ideas than I can make.

*

The truth of the PL is that it allows us to be lazy. "Whoop, you're on the PL/HOS, no soup for you!" ...without ever having to do any investigative work on our own, to make the decision whether or not to do business with someone individually. It's ever so much easier to just refer to "the list", Do most of the people on the list deserve to be there? Without a doubt. Does everyone? No. But it really is so much easier to just refer to the handy, ready made....ETERNAL...list of offenders. Most people convicted of crimes are given a specific sentence. Once their debt to society is paid...whether they make restitution or not...they are freed. "But they can appeal if they want to, and make it right! If they do that, they can come off!" We don't require that of anyone except the absolute worst criminals. ..and the HOS/PL. I know, this is mostly academic anyways. The majority of people on the list deserve to be there...if not forever...and have no desire nor intention of ever trying to get off.

In my years of buying and selling on here, my understanding is: 1) If someone has landed on the PL or HOS, it was because they did not follow through with one or more transactions that impacted fellow board members. So someone is out money either due to an item not being paid for, or after mailing a collectible a chargeback or some other approach led to money being taken back or not paid. Knowing a fellow board member has been impacted: 2) It is highly encouraged not to deal with that person on the PL/HOS in order to force their hand to complete the transaction with the offended party, or to move along so others do not experience the same fate. What's so hard to comprehend or support with that community expectation? This has nothing to do with personal feelings or dislike of a board member. It is a community norm to act as one body to force a positive result for one another, whether a buyer or a seller. Look at the words used here. "force a positive result." "act as one body." "community expectation" "force their hand." Folks, this is classic language of the demagogue. We are all individuals, not "one body." They are dangeous words, because instead of respecting the individual and individual rights, they turn the monolithic weight of "the community" on anyone who does not conform to whatever "the community" dictates, by shaming or worse. It is antithetical to everything that made America great: the idea that each individual should be free to pursue his or her own happiness as they see fit, so long as they weren't harming others. Look at the appeal to emotion used here: "Knowing a fellow board member has been impacted:" The underlined "fellow board member" being a highly charged appeal to emotion "won't someone think of the children!" type call, without ever actually investigating if that "fellow board member" has always been impacted, and to what degree. You're a bad person, you see, if you ignore the fact that a fellow board member has suffered, and what is wrong with you that you would so callously treat your board member brethren in such a way...? This is the very definition of demagoguery: appeals to emotion, rather than reason. What right does anyone have here to "force" anyone to do anything? If someone has not paid, fine, "this person never paid." But FORCE? If someone has committed a crime, there are legal avenues of justice...which this board is NOT...to address that. No one here has the right to "force" anyone to do anything if they are not a party to a transaction. Yet, that's the language that is used. Manipulation and coercion, rather than restitution, is the frame of reference. Some of you think this is acceptable, right, and good. This has been a clarifying experience for me, that some of you think the PL should be, and is, a blunt instrument of threat to compel people...again, through public shaming...to resolve a transaction. I don't want Kitsune on the PL as a means to coerce him to complete the transaction. I want him on the list for what he has already done, which is not paying for an item he claimed, and doing so in a manner that was completely disrespectful. I don't want him to be there to compel him to DO something. I want to WARN OTHER PEOPLE about what he has ALREADY DONE. But some of you (many of you?) think the list should be used to manipulate, coerce, force people to resolve the issue...? "For your own good", you see. "Positive results" which are "forced" are never positive. Folks, all sorts of really fine sounding arguments can be made for forcing conformity on everyone. "It's for your own good!" is the rallying cry used to convince everyone to "go along to get along." Eventually, though, everyone is forced to conform to whatever the ones with the power dictate is acceptable, on penalty of shaming or worse...and the majority ends up in chains. "Individual rights are not subject to a public vote, and the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and that the smallest minority on earth is the individual.)" - Ayn Rand