talesof...

If you talk about how much money you made off of hulk 181, you are putting monetary value on the book. I am a collector and I don't plan on selling my collection nor do I expect to get a substantial sum for it. If this discussion is about profitability and using comics as an investment. But you seem to think that hulk 181 is going to fetch a boat load of money. I don't like repeating myself either. I am a collector and I like the character. Wolverine is one of my favorites. But there is no way that book will reach the profitability that you investors are hoping for. I assume you hope to be able to retire off of hulk 181 but as an investment the big foundational books I mentioned are the only real investment books. That may be disappointing to hear but its truth. Golden age books are getting golden money silver are getting silver money and Bronze Age are getting a couple thousand for profit

Buying a 181 for around 2k and selling for 5k is a nice sum, but what is the data on loss/gain? since you have been selling and buying the book for so many years what is the highest amount of profit you have made? The point to that question is, I assume and (correct me if I am wrong) the highest profit you made was a few thousand dollars. That Is not a book claiming foundational status in monetary terms. which lets be honest, is how investors think. I like the character. He is one of my favorite characters. I have a vested interest in the character being a success. However, that book, though I really like the character, is not going to fetch prices that AC1 DC27 and AF15 will. At most from what I can tell the profit margin will be a few thousand dollars. That cannot be said about AC DC or AF. Those books are in the tens of thousands profit margins and way more. I expect them to roll out with xmen movies in around 3 to 5 years. I also expect the investors to skyrocket their prices that only the wealthy can afford and not the average, everyday fan/collector. they have other priorities. So then its in a category where investors are trying to convince investors about the potential for a hulk 181. Then its rinse and repeat with ebay data and having to go through and determine the validity of the sales data to see if its ACTUAL money exchanging hands or canceled/nonpayment ect ect. At the time when the xmen movies roll out and wolverine is re introduced on screen the prices WILL soar. they will also sour. There might me a sucker here and there buying into the hype. Then he wont be able to get half of what he paid because if he is lumped in with a pool of investors there is no way a money guy is going to buy that book for those prices because the potential for profit is cut to a fraction. Where as a 2.0 Amazing fantasy 15 is fetching 20k. People want so badly 181 to be like that but even though the character and book are really awesome. I just don't see the numbers for it to be a book in the same caliber. I never claimed you couldn't make money off the book if that is what you want to do. I do say there will be a limit to the money you will be able to make and I believe that number to show up in the next 3 to 5 years. The only time in my life I could of bought an AM15 and actually physically saw one was in the 90's maybe around 1995/96 I was 10 feet away from it and it was 500 dollars. I was a kid and had no money. No way were my parents going to buy me that book for that price back then. Had I found a way to get that book back then, the profit margin would of been in the 10s of thousands range if not more today. I cannot see someone buying a 181 now for a few thousands and getting the profit margin in that range in the next 10 years. \ The mouse having control of wolverine is also worrisome. If they downplay the character it will not add to the status. it will be true fans not being pleased because Disney is making wolverine family friendly. I think they will just turn him into a grouchy guy. They will probably cast clint eastwoods son (but that is an issue all by itself in terms of casting but it will effect pricing). Hes got a rough exterior but isn't really manly. That would fit disneys profile for a family friendly wolverine. Then the book prices might stay where they are now. If they do the character right. they will soar as I said but people wont spend the sky high prices after the initial run of people trying to capitalize on a trend that will fade in 6 mos afterwards. I just don't see Disney doing wolverine right though.

I dont see hulk 181 being the long term or a foundational book. It is a great book and a great character introduction but because the foundational books are of iconic status where if you see a batman symbol or a superman symbol or a spiderman symbol everyone in the world knows what that is. How old the books are only makes them that much more rare especially in higher condition provided it is authentic with no restoration. Hulk 181 is in a generation where adults are spending money on things they wanted when they were kids. They are becoming/are parents. but when their kids grow up living in a world where at the ripe age of 2/3 they start getting electronic things in their hands. The interests will go somewhere else and they may not view "old books" as something to spend money on. Things outside of the hobby also influence this. Politics, be it social or economical, will have an influence. I would say now a hulk 181 Is bragging rights for the guy who cant afford the foundational books. I would say in roughly 5 years time that will be the start of people not being able to make a profit, that will be the time when they will be fortunate to break even provided that they don't find someone's collection and give a fraction for it compared to online prices. The people that will be able to afford the hiked up prices will be in a category where they want high amounts for their "investment" and some may not want to spend the money because reason x, y, z. so then the price will have to come down somewhat. Housing is another factor. Some people would rather buy a home than a comic book. The 'Kidult' generation that is buying the things they wanted when they were kids will realize that life is going by quickly and they will need to grow up. They will still like the characters but it wont be the same. They wont spend big money on comics anymore, that is until prices come down. But if prices hover around where they are now, that's fine for the seller, but it is not going to be a foundational book category worthy of investment, where someone will pay millions of dollars for a hulk 181. I honestly don't think anyone would even pay hundreds of thousands for a 181. If that ever happened, then it was some clueless sucker that got told silver tongue speeches about how great of an investment that book is and then the reality is going to hit him when he has a 9.8, and realizes he isn't special because thanks to all the pressing a cleaning everyone is doing, he isn't unique enough to command the high price he wants. So then he has a few options. Keep the book. Take a hit on the book. try to convince some other sucker its a big time investment and hope he can get rid of it that way. Or get extremely fortunate and run into a rich guy's kid who wants all the superhero books he can get his hands on no matter how much they cost because daddy can afford it. All the sale data isn't reflecting the comics shops in the country that have some copies come in their stores from old collectors that are, well...getting old, and getting rid of their stuff they've been holding on to for their whole life. The fact is they aren't charging the prices on ebay. they are charging less. I got my hulk in a brick and mortar comic book shop. I paid 1700. All I expected to get was a 181. To my surprise when I was looking over the 181, the shop owner tells me it was 1700 for hulk 180, 181, and 182. they are in great shape. I couldn't believe it, especially after seeing the ebay prices. My local shop owner has 2 copies. one is an 8.0 cgc and I cant remember what the other is. He can't get rid of them. He wants way too much. He's holding on to the dream some guy with a ton of cash is going to walk in and say the 3 magic words. "I'll take it!" He's going on 4 years of waiting as of the time of this writing. He talks about hulk 181 being an investment book all the time. The bottom line is at some point, there will be a number that people will not pay. I think in the next 3 to 5 years that number is going to show itself and I don't think it will be as high as what investors hoped for. I cant help but wonder about the data of loss/gain. What does the data say about the dip in profit? I paid the price I paid because I like the character but I had a number I was not willing to pay. The same has to be thought of people trying to "invest" what number is too low for their profit margin? I'm curious about the people that took losses on their investments. There is no way 181 is ALL profit. That doesn't even happen in the stock market. It's about loss/gain. If 181 is looked at as an investment where can I go to see the loss/gain data? cause I got a ton of cash (not bragging) I would absolutely spend in a heart beat for all profit, no loss comic books.

This is an interesting topic, and troublesome at the same time. Here it seems there are comic "investors" which in the stock market you don't have stock "collectors" as far as I know. I got a hulk 181 because I like the character and I collect comics, or rather used to. when I get my tales of suspense 40 that's the final book. If you compare comic books to stock markets then the danger of "investing" in comics, which is a hobby, will show up. The trouble from a collector standpoint is, when the hobby is flooded with investors they want to buy cheap and sell high and have an entitlement mentality. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't find ebay to be a reliable source for sale figures because it is too easy to manipulate the numbers in terms of actual money being exchanged. For example, you might look at the selling trends on ebay "sold" items and think "wow look how much hulk 181 is going for." but in reality those don't reflect canceled orders, non paying bidders and what no body talks about, the price hike scam. where someone keeps bidding to try to rope someone in to bidding more. all you have to have is an extra ebay account or two. its easy to do and hard to catch. OR you are selling the book and don't want to get stuck with losing money because you paid an arm and a leg and your first born to get the book only to have it bidding at 700 dollars and 1 hour left to go before the auction ends. I have the mindset that the only real investment books are going to be action comics 1 detective comics 27 and I would even throw in amazing fantasy 15. those books are foundational books. IF hulk 181 stands the test of time it will be when I am an old man. The problem with that, is thinking long term. are kids today going to be interested in the characters and comics when I am an old man? I don't know. I thought that things like toys r us would be around forever but look what happened there. I don't even know if there will be comics when I am an old man. They are getting rid of printed material year by year. But there will be a market of people trying to sell the books they paid so much money for and not being able to get half of what they paid. It's a possibility. I would say I am leaving the hobby for good at the right time. You investors need to think about these things. I am a collector and I would not pay what the prices seem to being going for now. It just seems odd how quickly the numbers shot up. and lets be honest grading companies stand to make money with the hype and grades too. Add pressing and cleaning books to "increase" the grade. now you got regular guys buying pressing machines to press their own books to up the grades? You cant even hardly get an authentic book anymore unless you are lucky enough to find an old school original owner. then you better jump on it cause THAT is worth something. But with the price hikes and mentality of using comic books as "day trade" rather than a hobby meant to be enjoyed, I would not be surprised that this bubble will burst in the next 3 to 5 years. Oh man, if they cast wolverine in the movies right and they do the character justice in the movies. I cringe at what the prices would shoot up to then. and wondering if people are actually bidding the prices on ebay when that happens.

haha ol franky. it doesn't surprise me. I was feeling like garbage for paying double for the alex ross variant but now I don't feel so bad compared to what other people are paying. im elated its an original piece. the zoom on ebay without focus really didn't help. sigh of relief.

I see the blue up top. that is covered up on the book. that blue is where detective comics is written. cover the blue up and look at it. the top of the buildings are cut off because the detective comics font covers that up.

Of course I suppose Big AL is a master and could maybe produce the same art, the exact same way with zero differences in it at all. He probably hand painted all the covers himself individually too.

oh. you again.I had a feeling you'd be back. im not surprised. so what makes it "new" the top part that says detective comics? that part looks like the same font as the one with Harley catwoman and poison ivy. it is recycled artwork. the only part of it missing is the blue part on top. That blue part is covered up by the detective comics font. Here look. but im sure you still wont be convinced so rather than type to you ill just send a link for you and those to look at and judge for themselves. You however, cant be wrong so I have no doubts you will still see what you want even if you are wrong. I think you see that im new and im going to be easy pickings. you will find that to be untrue. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Fleer-Skybox-DC-Comics-Kingdom-Come-Xtra-Classics-Insert-Card-Set-Alex-Ross/163624905709?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

I'm somewhat glad I got the Alex Ross homage cover before it went crazy and also disappointed. I payed 50 for the book. I tried to get on his site but alas the scalpers were alive and well. and it looks like it is paying off for them after release. I bought mine the same day people were listing their pre orders on ebay. I found out it's recycled art. I would of thought alex would of done something different but its still cool anyway. The homage image is from the 1996 fleer skybox kingdom come DC trading cards. He did one for Action comics the detective comics and wonder woman. I thought it looked familiar. oh well, im excited to get it anyway.

YOU, I can talk to. you don't come off as smug and arrogant like the other guy. part of the qualification of knowing someone was in part truthful and in part in jesting. because honestly how can you explain why some of the people doing these books are employed? Sometimes its like they found somebody outside hanging out by the building and said, "can you draw?" and he's like "yup" and they go YOURE HIRED! but I don't want to derail the thread again. it spiraled out of control already.

naw bruh cant blame the toddy on that one. it was good ol fashion trying to type on a cell phone.

Oops I meant to reply to two piece

Stan Lee did pioneer the industry for sure. But how did he get his foot in the door? He knew someone. "Uncle" all the other stuff was just filler without merit given to the fact Stan lee got the job in part because he knew someone. That's it. The comics industry wasnt what it is now back then. I explained that as clearly as I could giving fact. Not filler compliments for Stan. The discussion is over. You can talk about it if you want. It's detailed the entire point of the thread as already pointed out.

Stan lee was an example of people being in the business because they know someone. Now you want examples of people being unqualified. Pick up the majority of books by marvel. Numbers don't lie. Talking to people like you is exhausting. I say the sky is blue you say, I'm not convinced, it depends on your definition of blue and technically in the afternoon it's a gold color on a sunny day. Tell me, are you a lawyer or some one in the human resources department? You remind me of those types. Blameless and legalistic. End of discussion

That's an assumption on your part. I don't but I'm not delusional that it does happen.

Well you would have to ask two piece if that qualifies. I was going to bring that up but he's delusional and would come up with jargon rather than accept facts.

the FACT you didn't bother to read shows where your mind set is at. FACT: stan Lee's brother Larry did not walk into the company and want to get a job. He got the job because he KNEW stan. At one point the local sheriff where I live hired people because they were from the same town as he was or because they went to church with him. If you think that there is never a case where someone who generally is not qualified is not given a job you are in fact delusional and no one can help you. You just backed yourself in a corner not expecting me to give you facts. Under your own admittance according to your own words, you didn't even read past the first sentence. So why don't you just move along? you cant be bothered with facts. uhg you remind me of someone that when they see a yield sign in traffic, in their minds they think " oh that's a green light, I can go." or maybe youre one of THOSE people that has to have the last word even if theyre wrong. well have at it big man, have at it.

you make me laugh. the old "give me proof", then when proof is given.."give me more proof im not convinced" routine, I give you irrefutable,factual,evidence, and you want more. TOO BAD. its out there go find it. Its on you now to prove it doesn't happen. ill go further in stan Lee's comic themed autobiography he tells the story about his brother getting a job at marvel and how it came to be. it was because...you guessed it...he knew stan and there was some tension because of it but he fell into his own after he worked there according to Stan. My former boss before he retired would not hire anyone unless they knew someone that worked at my company but that wasn't a "formal' job requirement. it was an unspoken one that people knew about...because they worked there and knew it wasn't right. that changed a LITTLE when he finally retired to it "helped" if you knew someone. far as im concerned you need to give me proof backing up your opinion, as I have given proof backing what I said. otherwise you can move along and we can agree to disagree.

I agree it is not a qualification but it still happens anyway, regardless of the fact it is NOT a qualification and people still get hired and paid. its not just peoples family that get hired. people's friends get hired too.

I agree 100 percent. "Fad keys" "stock market keys" I like the term manufactured keys.

I could of mentioned that stan Lee's brother....you know stan Lee right?. He was the face of marvel comics.... his brother was hired at marvel too. I wonder how he got the job? HMM..... how's that for a finisher? now PROVE to ME it doesn't happen.

ok. easy. ill use ONE example. Harley Quinn smith. you think she got jobs because she is really THAT talented? guess who's daughter she is.? As a bonus Mica Barden. her Dad you might know from reading rainbow or star trek. That's just the entertainment industry. The comics world is no different. it may not be relatives but people that ' know people' i could go on but unfortunately I don't have that much time. Detective comics 1000 midnight release awaits...

seriously. how else are some of these no talent individuals employed? qualification ...knowing someone. prove me wrong. and I should point out, again.. copy cat did his job. I realize some of that may be a bit much to take but its the truth. people want to believe there will be another big key but without talent and imagination it isn't going to happen. plain and simple. You have to have those things in order for the next true big key to happen. there are more books people are getting just for the covers than the actual content. That isn't helping when they put all the effort into doing a good looking cover and put doo on the inside.

oh man right after I posted that I just thought of an iconic character to define this generation. ready for this?... "CopyCat" powers and abilities to mimic those of other characters and their abilities with slight differences and variations coming to book stores near you... You're welcome. what's that you say?,,, theres already a character like that called chameleon or mimic? guess what? then he's done his job...or she.. nobody really knows because they are DON DON DON the COPY CAT. man, all I was looking for was the topic of actual release dates of comic books vs the cover dates on the books and finding the website where they are listed by daves world or something and it turned into this. I should get examined.

NO. I;m going to tell you why. Under FULL influence of a HOT TODDY. I didn't even read this thread but only the title and I can attest that those days are gone. The reason is partly the lack of creativity. The characters are riding the coattails of already existing characters and claiming the terms 'diversity' the politics is really what is oversaturating the medium and dragging it down. You HAVE to have a female, you HAVE to have a minority, you HAVE to hire a female writer for the book, you HAVE to hire a gay/lesbian for the art. I was in a movie theater and saw those commercials before the movie previews and it was some girl for marvel and she said something about she was a lesbian female latina. The last time I checked being those 3 things wasn't a qualification for doing art or writing. The qualification is talent OR knowing someone. or asking the question what are you good at and going from there. Now MAYBE there is merit for a non Marvel or DC book. look at the walking dead and image. BUT is it mainstream? its got a Tv show. is that the measure of success. I got into collecting comic books because I enjoy the art and story when I first walked into a comic book store my imagination ran wild looking at all the wall books and colors and awesome art in the late 80's early 90's. well the books don't hardly have words anymore. and most of the time the art is abysmal at best. This is the generation of kids that were on medication growing up because their parents didn't want to deal with them and the creativity is gone. Look back at the comic books from the 70's 80's and even some 90's the stuff they tackled would not even be touched today because everybody gets too offended and the fans aren't being listened to. The biggest thing is creativity. im not seeing it. it will be gone by the wayside when the 90s kids grow up. until people dig through some relatives "old" stuff and say ' This is awesome" and the natural imagination of a kid will take over and then and only then will something come from it but we wont be here when that happens. characters that stand the test of time are gone. the original creators are gone. its the generation of piggy backing now. look at miles morales. " hey, lets take spiderman and make him into another race." or spidergwen. "hey lets take spiderman and a iconic popular character and change the universe and so on, and so on. lets take the hulk and turn him Chinese. because why not? my point is, until the creative juices flow by some next comic book star the days of a key book of iconic status are done. IF there is such a thing it will be something technological and something only kids will get. YOU GOT TO HAVE CREATIVITY. a key book will NOT exist without it. There will be attempts, but it will feel bland and not have that wow factor. for crying out loud Detective comics 1000 is being advertised as the first appearance of the arkham night in dc universe. he was a video game character that was a lie from the studio. it was really Jason todd. when they could of easily kept him as red hood. but... marketing and expense associated with the entertainment industry. whattayagonnado?