bluechip

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1. My point being that the book has in fact already had things done to it that are conspicuously absent from the current grading company label. -J. Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Especially since your initial comment was about restoration. There is clearly no restoration to the book. If you're talking about the trimming, as others have mentioned, I agree it would be best if the label had the word trimmed. Or at least that it was consistent so that it said (or didn't say) trimmed, consistently, on each book. if I thought there was any chance that a person who could afford this book would look at the book with all the obvious trimming and then look at the listing with all the words about trimming -- and still not figure out it's trimmed -- I would insist on reslabbing it to make sure that word is on the label. But I really don't have any doubt that every bidder will know. (And if I really thought somebody wouldn't know, I would have to question whether such a person would be able to figure out it's trimmed no matter how many ways they were told). And even then I would have to say it's got the lowest grade possible. It's got the same grade as other books would get even if they were unreadable, unholdable, unenjoyable and immensely displeasing to look at with horribly defaced and degraded cover images, etc. I've seen people looking at these in the Warner Brothers exhibit, and nobody's had that reaction. (in fact the only comments about the grade were to the opposite, that it looked much better than "poor") No offense to the book, it is what it is. My only issue is with the degree of disclosure on the grading company label. -J. While I wouldn't call it lack of disclosure, I suppose I could see it as an excuse to demand it be reslabbed-- with my real purpose being to get rid of that free-floating piece of paper that somehow ended up stuck in the side of the slab. Something like that diminishes the eye-appeal in a way that's really unfortunate. But it wouldn't be fair of me to demand a reslab on the pretext of adding the word "trimmed" if I don't really think the trimming isn't obvious.

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1. My point being that the book has in fact already had things done to it that are conspicuously absent from the current grading company label. -J. Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Especially since your initial comment was about restoration. There is clearly no restoration to the book. If you're talking about the trimming, as others have mentioned, I agree it would be best if the label had the word trimmed. Or at least that it was consistent so that it said (or didn't say) trimmed, consistently, on each book. if I thought there was any chance that a person who could afford this book would look at the book with all the obvious trimming and then look at the listing with all the words about trimming -- and still not figure out it's trimmed -- I would insist on reslabbing it to make sure that word is on the label. But I really don't have any doubt that every bidder will know. (And if I really thought somebody wouldn't know, I would have to question whether such a person would be able to figure out it's trimmed no matter how many ways they were told). And even then I would have to say it's got the lowest grade possible. It's got the same grade as other books would get even if they were unreadable, unholdable, unenjoyable and immensely displeasing to look at with horribly defaced and degraded cover images, etc. I've seen people looking at these in the Warner Brothers exhibit, and nobody's had that reaction. (in fact the only comments about the grade were to the opposite, that it looked much better than "poor")

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1.

The listing has been revised to indicate that replacements of the missing pages will be provided for no additional charge (replacement pages will come from a different original copy which was in a different bound volume) If a winning bidder so desires, they can pay a nonimal fee for the original 1940 binder which contained the Batman 1 (and other books, bat 2-3 and tec 39-45), which is embossed with the issue dates and titles on the spine and embossed with Bob Kane's name on the front. Book currently on display in Burbank at the Warner Brothers museum exhibit for Batman's 75th anniversary:

Why doesn't that label say the book has been trimmed ? -J. good question, it does state "from a bound volume" so maybe it is assumed that has the same meaning. Those labels seem to be "seller friendly" when it comes to resto/trimmed books. I wonder if that's why they went that particular route for these particular bats books. But if a book has been trimmed I don't see how there's anyway that doesn't get mentioned on the label. Maybe it's in the "free graders' notes"? -J. The choice of CBCS was not about preferring them to CGC or slighting CGC in any way. It was a timing issue that came up suddenly on a Friday, mid-day. There was a small window for slabbing that opened when there was a delay with Warner Brothers, which was about to display them in their museum's Batman exhibit. CBCS was ready to go and get them back in time for WB's needs, so a decision had to be made basically that minute whether to send or not to send. Certainly it would make the labels consistent if each book had the word trimmed on the label,and I would prefer it be consistent. But there is no question that every potential bidder will know they are trimmed. It's impossible to look at them without knowing that. And the listings say it (sometimes several times in the same listing) As for what's "seller friendly," I think it would be better for selling if labels consistently indicated when a missing page did or did not affect the elements that make the book valuable. In this case, the missing pages of some books do not affect the Batman story but the labels just say "affects story" Most buyers probably take that to mean the Batman story is affected, while a few savvy buyers can figure out when it doesn't. (On the reverse, it's easy to find graded books with a missing cover or even the key story missing, but the label says "classic cover" or "1st appearance of..." even though what's in the slab doesn't actually contain any portion of the value-enhancing things listed on the label. (Of course I think that policy is same for all grading companies, so nobody has the option of getting a label that is more friendly one way or the other) So I think that, in general, some policies favor sellers as well as buyers. But in the case of the Kane copies that have missing pages without affecting the Batman story, the policy employed here favors the buyers. Some people have looked at them and asked why they are poor, because they have seen other books graded poor which look far worse. They are graded poor in large part because they are trimmed. So, they are trimmed but not "resto"/trimmed. There is no way to conclude the books have been improved by the binder trimming. Ultimately, the Kane books should have the pages reinforced in a way that doesn't increase the grade or completeness but simply conserves the interior pages. If done under CBCS' supervision they will keep the Kane provenance notation intact on the label which would also note whatever restoration or conservation has been done. I would presume the same be may so with CGC. But I can't speak for them about that with certainty. I had some very pleasant and constructive conversations with people at CGC about these books, and they agreed they would note the Kane provenance, but we didn't really cover whether they'd keep the provenance if and when some restoration/conservation is done. The listing has been revised to indicate that replacements of the missing pages will be provided for no additional charge (replacement pages will come from a different original copy which was in a different bound volume) If a winning bidder so desires, they can pay a nonimal fee for the original 1940 binder which contained the Batman 1 (and other books, bat 2-3 and tec 39-45), which is embossed with the issue dates and titles on the spine and embossed with Bob Kane's name on the front. Book currently on display in Burbank at the Warner Brothers museum exhibit for Batman's 75th anniversary:

You should see if CGC would add that in the notes: First copy of Pep 23 to be officially recognized as 2nd appearance of Archie. I held off selling a 23 recently because I felt it has been kept below its real value. Aside from being the 2nd appearance it is the FIRST appearance of the gang as teenagers. If they had all stayed prepubescent in the "Andy Hardy" style of 22, there is no way the Archie series would be the juggernaut it became. A guy at SDCC whose name I failed to catch put it well. He said if there is room for multiple keys in the evolution of Sgt. Rock, then there is room for keys in the development of Archie. And a major shift like the one from 22 to 23 might qualify for similar consideration.

Since the Pep 22 is my former copy, I know it will sell for many times what I got, just so the universe can laugh at me for selling too soon.

I guess gators float near the surface.... Don't get me wrong. There's probably very little about ga sh dc/timelys I don't know about or at least appreciate in the grand scheme of things. I'm just Sayng when I buy a cap1 I don't do it for all the little reasons behind the obvious Most people don't think about why they do what they do or collect what they collect. Perhaps Wayne-tec is a contender for the comic book equivalent of Masters and Johnson.

FF 1 also has a classic Kirby cover. I am not sure Marvel 1 is totally analogous to FF1. Marvel's GA "universe" vanished from the newsstands between 1953 and 1961 (with a failed revival in 1954). Without FF1 the Marvel universe might have been no more important today than the Nedor universe, FF 1 itself will always have more standing historically due to its place in Marvel history and the well-known tale of its role as the "turning point" in the life of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Marvel. Do a Google search and you will find many news accounts (however apocryphal) of the Goodman golf game and the story of how Lee was about to quit when his said "just once, do it your own way," etc. But aside from that the FF and their universe of villains etc go beyond the name value of those in Marvel 1 (unless you count the torch as a predecessor), though some MCU films with Namor in them could bring that character considerable heat in the future. For now the FF are way better known than original Torch or Namor despite some mediocre movies and they shall be in a successful film series -- at some point. I hold little if any hope for the "Chronicle Part 2" which will masquerade as a FF movie.

Thanks for sharing that. That's a little tid bit of info I never knew. Is that the way Cap was originally designed? Without the wings? What comic is that ad in? Human Torch #2(3). Believe it also appears in another book but don't know which one. The Torch has an interior ad as well. As for the design, I don't know if he was made first without wings or if this was just an error on the cover.

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key. If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap There may be variations in the character's appearance in early ads dependent upon the artist, but according to Joe Simon Cap was sold to Goodman complete, awhile before any ads would've been created. As the story goes, Goodman apparently wanted a patriotic character to compete with MLJ's Shield and asked if Joe had any ideas. As luck would have it, Simon had a book on the shelf ready that he and Jack Kirby had recently developed to pitch. Simon used this opportunity to negotiate an editorship agreement with Goodman. . I had also read Simon's account and have seen the initial presentation drawing that Simon said was the "pitch" for Cap. Which leaves me confused as to why the wings were left off his head on the first pass at the cover of #1. Could be a Kirby oversight. (such as leaving the spider off Spider-man's chest, etc)

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key. If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap The fact that it has a history component that AC1, Tec27... or for that matter AF15 and BB28 do not have... could be a strenght, but it could definitely also be a weakness. Because whereas the others are timeless... their stories and legends exist like timeless fairytales..while CA1 is tied to a particular time in history. What happens when WWII is a distant memory like perhaps "Battle at the River Jhelum"?? Will CA1 loose some relevance because it is not as timeless as the other big ones? Many in this thread have a CA1, so I'm not counting on people saying "yes, it will loose relevance".. hhehe... but just consider it.. True...nothing will last and everything will pass...even comic books.. The philosopher Hegel once said "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom." but he also said "The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history" It's my hope WW2 is never forgotten Unfortunately, Hitler has earned a place in history that will not be forgotten for a couple thousand years (presuming we all survive that long).

Another factor to consider, and it's a big one, is that (and correct me if I'm mistaken) the majority of Superman #1 owners are from an older generation, one that grew up loving Superman. Collectors who are presently in their 20's-30's don't have the same positive exposure to the character as older generations. But that younger generation has also pushed the Marvel Universe into another stratosphere. In the history of our hobby, most Superman #1 owners have come from generations where Superman was beloved. Things have obviously changed drastically over the past 25 years. Comic collecting is extremely nostalgia-driven, so it's not unreasonable to expect that when the younger generations rise to greater spending power, they may be more inclined to invest great sums of money into characters they love, as opposed to characters like Superman, who unfortunately isn't even remarkably liked by many young collectors. I've shown Superman 1, Batman 1, Action 1 and Tec 27 to people who were born on the cusp of the 21st century, and nearly all of them have been very impressed. Many of them had already seen the issues. (I was born long after those issues were published, myself, yet I was motivated to acquire them at a time when superheroes were still looked down upon by most adults -- including most of my work colleagues -- and they were virtually unknown outside the USA. Today all that has changed completely. Colleagues of mine who would've scoffed at comics 20 years ago claim today they have always been fans (because it is considered uncool not to be) and the heroes, as well as the supporting characters and villains, are household names around the world)

Cap 1 will not outpace Action 1 or Tec 27 but it could outpace Supe 1. Holding it back is the fact that it's more commonly found than the others. But it's a first appearance as well as a #1, and it's got a real history component, as the man says, which the others do not have. The cover can be appreciated on levels beyond that of any other golden age key. If the #1 itself is going beyond the reach of many, then maybe consider the books that contained ads for Cap 1 which were on the stands before Cap 1 itself. At least one of those ads features a prelim image of cap before the wings were added to his head. And these books can be found pretty cheap

Agreed Rick. It's a bit ironic considering that clipped coupon book are eligible for the green label. In cases of amateur trimming that does not improve the grade or appearance of the book, or in cases where it actually hurts the eye appeal -- a green label would seem appropriate. (thumbs u I am not especially a fan of the green label but I do believe it is applied fairly and consistently. And I'd agree that in the case of trimmed books it would be consistent and logical. The reason I am not a fan of the green label is that it basically requires treating the book as if the missing part(s) were not missing (and presumes the missing parts would be at least as nice as the parts that remain). It's saying "If the coupon hadn't been clipped" it would be this grade. Or, "If the centerfold hadn't fallen out. If the edges hadn't been trimmed...." etc. Don't get me wrong. I am not calling saying it's strange or of questionable intent. I think the intent is reasonable and it's even logical, in a way. But as logical as it is, when that standard is applied to a grading system based on structure, as it is, it can and does make for wildly different books with the same label. I've seen green label books with missing coupons that didn't affect the story yet beautiful in every other way. And I've seen green label books with decent grades that had coupons clipped from the front cover in a way that the eye appeal of the book was destroyed for me (a coupon out of the back, or margins missing from the edge, is one thing. But Superman's face clipped from the cover just doesn't seem the same) One very good thing about the green label is that CGC gives you the option of taking a green label with a higher grade or taking the blue label with the lower grade. If trimming were given a purple label when it improved the appearance of the book and the option of a lower grade blue or higher grade green, as with other defects it would be consistent with the standards for both green and purple labels.

Is that because we want people to respond and avoid them as much as they avoid restored books? That might work against the argument that label colors are not there for the purpose of influencing the response of buyers. And even if that was the accepted goal, it would seem impractical to put colors on labels for any defect, whether or not they are widely shunned. Because once you go down that road, where do you stop? Who is to say which defect(s) need to be shunned so much that words on the label are not enough; we also need a warning color? And how would there be anything but endless debate over what should or shouldn't trigger a "warning" in addition to the description. Brittle pages? Pressing? Cat urine stains? Signatures with awful placement or drawings of cockroaches? Where will it end? (actually I know the answer to that one; it ... will... never... end)

Not a fan a trimming at all. Restoring/adding back to a book I'm ok with. Removing from books on purpose I don't like. +1 (thumbs u +2 +3 Maybe the most heinous "restoration" technique there is. More like disfigurement technique. +4 It's not restoration because it doesn't bring a book back to any original state and shouldn't improve the grade since it removes a portion of the book. In some cases it apparently improved the appearance of silver age books that had overhangs (and since not all silver age books had overhangs, it can be logically consistent to say the apparent grade improved in those limited situations). But when kids cut comics to fi them in their notebooks or cut around the edges of those pin-up covers of Superman 1 and Batman 1, so they could put them in a frame, they were not "restoring" anything. Nothing can be both damage that affects the grade and at the same time also be restoration. At least, not logically. +5 It is sickening to see, and it is a dishonest practice especially when sold as "unrestored" I could see your point calling it dishonest if for example, we're talking about a silver age with overhang that somebody trimmed to make a NM grade. I understand that happened big time with some HG books meaning they were just the kind of books that attract obsessive collectors the very people inclined to care the most about the trimming. But there is nothing dishonest if a book is trimmed and the seller reveals it was trimmed. That's especially so if the book was trimmed in a way that indisputably did not improve the grade (or even lowered the grade). A book that was not color touched or tear sealed or anything else but was clearly cut -- and clearly damaged -- to fit in some kid's school notebook has not been restored. You may dislike books that are restored and you may also dislike books that are trimmed --- whether or not the trimming improves the appearance. You may even consider trimming and restoration equally bad. But the word "restored" means "restored" It does not mean "restored OR something else considered equally bad"

Schomburg did several covers that show Mussolini and Hitler apparently caught in the middle of something sexual. In this he's hiding under the bed and in another he's under Hitler's desk between his legs.

One of my favorite Hitler-era stories. From Daring Mystery 8

Inside cover Captain Marvel Jr 7

Not a fan a trimming at all. Restoring/adding back to a book I'm ok with. Removing from books on purpose I don't like. +1 (thumbs u +2 +3 Maybe the most heinous "restoration" technique there is. More like disfigurement technique. +4 It's not restoration because it doesn't bring a book back to any original state and shouldn't improve the grade since it removes a portion of the book. In some cases it apparently improved the appearance of silver age books that had overhangs (and since not all silver age books had overhangs, it can be logically consistent to say the apparent grade improved in those limited situations). But when kids cut comics to fi them in their notebooks or cut around the edges of those pin-up covers of Superman 1 and Batman 1, so they could put them in a frame, they were not "restoring" anything. Nothing can be both damage that affects the grade and at the same time also be restoration. At least, not logically.

The appeal is generation transcending. As long as comic heroes are in the mainstream, all ages will flourish Not to understate Gator's wisdom, but this seems so self-evident that it surprises me that people keep asking whether comics will be "worth" anything in decades to come, when Marvel's MCU is the top-grossing franchise of all time (and close behind are OTHER Marvel-based franchises such as Spider-man and X-Men). And after that are the OTHER superheros like a certain Bat guy. Put them all together and you have a phenom that surpasses westerns and horror films together in the 1930s and the value of related items to those phenoms continued for decades after the franchises themselves were forgotten by all but the geriatric. Anybody who thinks that SUPERHERO comics will fall out of favor as valuable collectibles may be having trouble seeing the difference between superhero comics and all others. It could be argued that the value of the "other" comics may be propped up for the time being by the rise in superhero comics and the notion among some that a rising tide for superhero comics should be just as beneficial to non-hero comics.

It's a very understandable mistake. Jackpot 4 says "new feature" on the cover and has an image of Archie taken from the first story. Logic would indicate it was published about the same time or even simultaneously. The cover date of 12/41 on pep 22 coincides with the Winter date on J4 (winter starts in december) Soit would make sense to conclude they appeared almost simultaneously. Other data now makes it clear that was not correct. But it was a perfectly logical conclusion in th first place

The Okajimas in my view are one of the more interesting examples of pedigree or if you prefer, provenance). The pedigrees all have a story but the irony of this story -- that interned Japanese kids were reading WW2 comics filled with stereotyped Japanese soldiers and villains -- beats a story about how a collection was accumulated and saved. Sure, the latter appeals to nostalgia with the idylic recollections of how the guy walked down the corner store and how he saved his books many years. But the story behind the Okajimas makes them a part of history. I would be happy to find a good example

I don't know if it makes that much difference vis a vis 2nd or 3rd appearance, normally, but in the case of Pep 23 it's also the first time Archie and gang are actually depicted as teenagers. In Pep 22 they are clearly younger and prepubescent. Maybe 10 or so. They were aged up to teens in Pep 23