Why does Top-Notch Comics #2 get NO respect from Overstreet?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

#3. Are you going to address the submarine comment, or just let that one slip by? Or are you going to further argue whether Germany invading Poland wasn't the start of WWII?

 

Don't mean to intrude in this discussion, but for what its worth:

 

The war in Europe began on the 1st of September, 1939. .

 

Most historians, however, would trace the first shots of WWII back to the Japanese invasion of Manchuria years earlier.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Don't think I saw this brough up here, but what if that cover were a Timely showing Cap or Torch with Cap or Torch as the main good guy?

[Shield]

Which cover are you referring to, the Amazing Man #9? You might as well say that happened, as it was on the stands concurrently with Marvel Mystery #4. The Timely got the notation in the guide, natch.

[PovertyRow]

Which cover are you referring to, the Amazing Man #9? You might as well say that happened, as it was on the stands concurrently with Marvel Mystery #4. The Timely got the notation in the guide, natch.

 

Top Notch 2. Did I goof?

[Warlord]

Holy Crud.

Shield is like a well oiled machine with this stuff.

.

 

OK, I'm no historian, so I'll take my cheap shot and then cower somewhere!

 

Here's another point, what other country back in 1939 even had a submarine???

 

Timely

 

Plenty of countries. Submarines have been around since World War One!

 

Ahem... there might have been a submarine or two or three around a little before WW1:

 

The Hunley

 

Even the 1863 Hunley was preceeded by two earlier models, but the Hunley was the first to sink an enemy warship and thus deemed "the world's first successful submarine".

 

The Confederate submarine sank on February 17, 1864, shortly after an attack on the Union blockader U.S.S. Housatonic.

[Shield]

You know, you may think I'm making a big to-do about nothing, but even Heritage must think it's significant, note the item description on this book:

 

http://apps.heritagecomics.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=803&Lot_No=5136

[Timely]

Nice MH SHIELD. History is a funny and linked concept, one action resulting from another. Perhaps WWII began the day Hitler took control of Germany's army! Or perhaps WWII began the day he was conceived by his parents, now there's any ugly thought! .

Something to consider!

 

Timely

[Shield]

Which cover are you referring to, the Amazing Man #9? You might as well say that happened, as it was on the stands concurrently with Marvel Mystery #4. The Timely got the notation in the guide, natch.

 

Top Notch 2. Did I goof?

 

I get what you're saying. I wouldn't have anything to say, as the vast amount of Timely collectors would've made sure it said so in the guide, right?

[PovertyRow]

You know, you may think I'm making a big to-do about nothing

 

Actually, Shield, I think you are making a big to-do about something worth making a big to-do about! See my new thread that acknowldeges your thread.

[Shield]

 

The Hunley

 

Even the 1863 Hunley was preceeded by two earlier models, but the Hunley was the first to sink an enemy warship and thus deemed "the world's first successful submarine".

 

The Confederate submarine sank on February 17, 1864, shortly after an attack on the Union blockader U.S.S. Housatonic.

 

Let me say this. I'm a bit of a WWII buff. Am I a historian? No way. I could talk for hours about WWII though and have read enough on the topic to know a little bit. Also, I'm passionate about it because it's part of the reason I prefer the golden age - the ties to the war and the cover artwork. I know very little about submarines, but I did recall they were around during the first world war, and for Timely to say "Here's another point, what other country back in 1939 even had a submarine???" made me wonder if he knew what he was talking about. And then, the WWI era tank on Action #17, etc. makes me wonder why he hopped into this coversation with so little to add.

 

Look, Timely, I enjoy reading your posts, as we both love Golden Age books, you'll just have to understand that there's a few things that get under my skin. Putting DC/Timely on an all-encompassing pedastal is one of them, incidentially or not.

 

Sure, Captain America, Superman and Batman were/are fantastic superheroes. Having read both early Cap and Shield, it's such a blatant rip-off though that I have to point it out, along with other things rival publishers were putting out at the time. MLJ now is very successful with Archie, and should never re-release their 40's superheroes again (Impact line, anyone?). However, after reading 3/4 of the MLJ books I have to say the content they were putting out was on par with everyone else, including the artwork and characters.

 

Timely, thank you for one thing. I have 78 out of 219 MLJ's left to acquire, and my next publisher I'm going after is Centaur for sure. They are simply unbelievable works of art.

 

Let's be friends, Timely, and just admit you got

 

 

 

[Shield]

Nice MH SHIELD. History is a funny and linked concept, one action resulting from another. Perhaps WWII began the day Hitler took control of Germany's army! Or perhaps WWII began the day he was conceived by his parents, now there's any ugly thought! .

Something to consider!

 

Timely

 

 

I think the majority of people would say the second world war began when Hitler's troops used military action against its neighbor, Poland. Pretty much black and white for me. Heck, Germany even tried to make it appear as if Poland was trying to start the war!

 

Read this!

 

From http://2ndww.tripod.com/Poland/gleiwitz.htm

 

Late evening on Thursday, 31 August 1939 the audience was listening to Gleiwitz, a radio-station on the Germano-Polish frontier but just inside Germany. Suddenly the musical programme broke and excited German voices announced that the town of Gleiwitz had been invaded by Polish irregular formations marching towards the emitting station. Then the station "went dead". When received again, Polish was being spoken. An inflammatory statement was broadcast urging Polish minority in Silesia to take up arms against Adolf Hitler. Radio Cologne gave out that German police was repelling the attackers at Gleiwitz. The BBC also broadcast a statement, which read:

 

There have been reports of an attack on a radio station in Gleiwitz, which is just across the Polish border in Silesia. The German News Agency reports that the attack came at about 8.00pm this evening when the Poles forced their way into the studio and began broadcasting a statement in Polish. Within quarter of an hour, says reports, the Poles were overpowered by German police, who opened fire on them. Several of the Poles were reported killed, but the numbers are not yet known.1

 

This was the excuse Hitler needed to invade Poland on the next day, 1 September 1939. The incident, which triggered the Second World War could have remained obscure, had it not surfaced during the proceedings of the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg in 1945. A written affidavit was then taken from SS-Sturmbannführer Naujocks, which indicated that the attack on the Gleiwitz radio-station was staged by the Gestapo and SD, and was one of numerous "border incidents" fabricated for the purpose of furnishing Hitler with such excuses, and creating an atmosphere of distrust and suspicion as to Poland's intentions.

 

Alfred Helmut Naujocks was born on 20 September 1911 and died in 1960. His NSDAP membership card bore number 26240; SS number - 624279. His career is rather sketchy, but he is referred to in virtually every book about the Nazi Reich. William Shirer characterized him as a sort of intellectual gangster,2 and Heinz Hohne in The Order of the Death Head nicknamed Naujocks as the man who started the Second World War.3 He studied engineering at Kiel University, joined the SS in 1931 and was brought in by Reinhardt Heydrich in 1934 to help in locating Otto Strasser's "black radio" in Prague. Naujocks became an official of the Amt VI of the SS (Security Service - SD) and was one of the most audacious commanders of the SD. He wasn't an intelligent leader and lacked the mental capacity for creating plans such as those which Heydrich conceived. However he was an expert at carrying out an operation once it was explained. He helped Heydrich to fabricate compromising materials against the Soviet Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevskiy, who was effectively tried and executed in infamous Stalin's purges. In 1939 Heydrich gave him details of a simulated Polish attack on a small German radio station at Gleiwitz near the Polish border. This was to give the Führer the excuse for his attack on Poland.

 

The plan, known as the operation Himmler was conceived early in August 1939. Since 10 August Naujocks' men had been waiting at Gleiwitz, Beuthen, Hindenburg and elsewhere near the Polish frontier, in order to stage a faked Polish attack on the German radio station there. They carried out necessary preparations and reconnaissance. To add authenticity it was planned to take certain prisoners from concentration camps, kill them by use of hypodermic injections, and leave their bodies, clad in Polish uniforms, at the various places where the incidents were planned to occur. The chief of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller, took a directing hand in those actions. At 4:00 on 31 August the executive order to begin the invasion was confirmed, and troops and equipment began moving up to forward positions near the frontier. Simultaneously special orders were transmitted to Naujocks; his men were to attack the forestry station, destroy the German customs building, and, most important, briefly occupy the German radio station at Gleiwitz. After shouting anti-German slogans into the microphone the "Poles" would retreat, leaving behind a number of dead bodies as proof that a fight had taken place. The bodies presented no problem. Naujocks picked them up at 8:00 already unconscious - in SS jargon they were mockingly called "canned goods". The SS-men seized the radio station as ordered, broadcast the speech, fired some shots and left. But before they left they shot the bodies and placed placed them in strategic positions around the radio-station. After the incident, journalists and members of the diplomatic corps were taken to the scene of the incident, where they were presented "proofs" of the "Polish aggression".

 

Naujocks was also involved in the Venlo incident, where he and 16 other SD men abducted two British intelligence officers, Captain Sigismund Payne Best and Major Richard Henry Stevens. A story was then told that these officers had directed a bomb plot to kill Hitler. The Venlo incident was to be the excuse for invading the Low Countries. He was also involved in operation Bernhard, the operation of faking British bank notes by inmates of the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. In the SD Naujocks also specialized in forging passports. The Nazi authorities were so pleased with the results that 12 prisoners, three of whom were Jews, were awarded the War Merit Medal. After being dismissed by the SD for disobedience, Naujocks joined the Waffen-SS. In 1943 he was on the Eastern Front. In 1944 he was an economic administrator in Belgium, and then went to sort out the resistance in Denmark and was responsible for the murder of members of the Danish resistance. He deserted to the Americans in October 1944, but escaped from the POW camp. After the war he settled in Hamburg as a businessman. He was alleged to have been involved with Otto Skorzeny after the war in running the secret organization of former SS members - ODESSA. Skorzeny handled the contracts with the Spanish government, and passports and funds were arranged for escaping SS to South America.

 

The radio-station in Gleiwitz (nowadays Gliwice in Poland) was built in 1935 by the company Lorenz AG from Tempelhof near Berlin (nowadays a district in the German capital). It comprised broadcasting, administration and living facilities, as well as two masts supporting antennas. Nowadays one mast is still in place. It is 110m tall and is built of materials, which in 1930's constituted a technical novelty: high quality arbutus wood joint by brass and wooden pins. Systematically maintained in good condition, it is a unique monument of technics, still working. The radio-station facilities are also operable and harbour a small local museum of radio-broadcasting equipment.

 

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

"I wouldn't have anything to say, as the vast amount of Timely collectors would've made sure it said so in the guide, right?"

 

For the love of...well, that's it for me on this one. You can only scream into the wind so long before you get hoarse.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go into my secret Timely cabal meeting.

 

 

[Shield]

"I wouldn't have anything to say, as the vast amount of Timely collectors would've made sure it said so in the guide, right?"

 

For the love of...well, that's it for me on this one. You can only scream into the wind so long before you get hoarse.

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go into my secret Timely cabal meeting.

 

 

That comment was for you...I was hoping you'd read that and chuckle. I should've said it with (/sarcasm for Arnoldt) quotes, but I didn't. I figured it'd get your goat more left on its own.

[Zonker]

I don't know what more I can say except "Send - It - In." This is the way it works. You mail in xeroxed copies of things - indicia, covers, whatever you wish to see corrected; we look at it; we show it to Bob; we verify that yes, the correction is called for; we fix it; we're done.

 

Hey Arnold,

Did you make an exception to this send-in-xerox-hardcopies rule for our recent "Overstreet Errata" forum thread?

 

 

Or did we miss the boat with that thread for next year's guide?

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Actually I think I made it clear way back when (maybe we can check the posts from back then) that eventually I wanted someone to directly e-mail or print out and send that list to us because there was no way we could sift through a bunch of online posts and cut and paste or whatever. So since no one has sent it yet, yes I wouldn't necessarily expect that stuff in the next Guide.

 

It's just difficult to keep track of this stuff, that's why it's better if there's something either sent directly or something we can hold and look at. It's the Luddite side of Gemstone .

 

And Shield, gotcha, and well done, goat gotten .

[rob_react]

Actually I think I made it clear way back when (maybe we can check the posts from back then) that eventually I wanted someone to directly e-mail or print out and send that list to us because there was no way we could sift through a bunch of online posts and cut and paste or whatever. So since no one has sent it yet, yes I wouldn't necessarily expect that stuff in the next Guide.

 

You could cut and paste and sort through an email, but you couldn't cut and paste and sort through a message board post? Alternatively, printing it and MAILING IT would make life easier for you? Neither of those add up.

[Zonker]

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

They add up to me. I don't have time to sit and scroll through page after page of posts about corrections, sift out the conversation and commentary, cut and paste lots of little suggestions, corrections and what-have-you. If it were all collected and sent directly to us, we can work from the list a lot easier and not have to do all the gathering on the boards, which we hardly have time for. And if I print out an e-mail list of just the corrections, it's a hell of a lot more efficient than printing out pages of website displays, which includes all the extraneous conversation, iconic clutter, etc.

 

I don't really see much need to explain this except to say that we are very happy to be on the boards and participate in conversation, but when it comes to the very detail-oriented business of producing books, we need suggested corrections and other material sent in specific ways so that we can handle it as efficiently as possible. And that's that.

[rob_react]

Have you looked at the thread in question?

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Absolutely, I believe I even posted in it. And Zonker has just kindly sent the whole thing, neatly summarized, so we're cool.

 

Arnold